There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
I think it's bound to happen, they hangout a lot and all the sons are at an age they go nomadic buying their time to eventually challenge for a territory.
They're definitely some sort of a nomadic coalition, the 4 Nkuhumas and Mohawk.
Won't that be something if we get to see another Notch type situation, I think it would be absolutely fantastic for Mohawk, who is still in his prime.
I think Mohawk is moving in the same direction as Notch did my friend.
I, unfortunately, wasn't following lions when the Notch boys had their run. However, from my understanding of what I have read about it, Mohawk seems to currently be following a similar path to the Notch story. We shall see how it plays out, I hope it works out for Mohawk and the boys.
A lot of males stay in company of their sons when they are ousted, but not many actually succeed to become territorial together, as most of those older males are around 10 or more years old when their sons are ready to challenge for territory (on average males produce their first offspring around 5 yrs old, and that offspring become territorial on average around 5, so thats ~ 10 yrs for father).
Being nomad at 10+ yrs old is hard, most males who got ousted in those years dont live for long, regardless if they have company or not (stress, fast pace, territorial males etc.). Having company is good and bad thing, sons are getting bigger and stronger, they will overpower their old fathers on kills etc.. Even Notch himself had hard time dealing with boys when they grew up, towards the end of his life, he didnt even hang with them.
Mohawk is over 10 yrs old, oldest boy is just over 4 yrs old, others not even that, if we judge by other up and coming coalitions in this area, they are atleast 1 year away from showing any territorial interests ( Kambulas and Talamatis are 1 year older and still didnt challenge anyone, BDMs also recently started challeging at 5 yrs of age).
I mean its possible that Mohawk becomes territorial again with them, but not very likely (same speculations where for DM and Talamatis).
5th Mantimahle also joined his sons, not sure if he was still alive when they become territorial at around late 2021 (approx), but even if he was, he died/disappeared shortly after.
Only one who can think of as recent, territorial father and son/s coalition for longer time in Kruger, is Lubyelubye father and son. They where together since 2016, become territorial in 2019/20 (not sure on that exactly), up until Son went missing in mid-late 2021, and as we see Father lived up until these days.
So yea, a lot of father - son nomadic coalitions happen, but very little of those manage to become territorial together.
(08-17-2023, 10:08 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: A lot of males stay in company of their sons when they are ousted, but not many actually succeed to become territorial together, as most of those older males are around 10 or more years old when their sons are ready to challenge for territory (on average males produce their first offspring around 5 yrs old, and that offspring become territorial on average around 5, so thats ~ 10 yrs for father).
Being nomad at 10+ yrs old is hard, most males who got ousted in those years dont live for long, regardless if they have company or not (stress, fast pace, territorial males etc.). Having company is good and bad thing, sons are getting bigger and stronger, they will overpower their old fathers on kills etc.. Even Notch himself had hard time dealing with boys when they grew up, towards the end of his life, he didnt even hang with them.
Mohawk is over 10 yrs old, oldest boy is just over 4 yrs old, others not even that, if we judge by other up and coming coalitions in this area, they are atleast 1 year away from showing any territorial interests ( Kambulas and Talamatis are 1 year older and still didnt challenge anyone, BDMs also recently started challeging at 5 yrs of age).
I mean its possible that Mohawk becomes territorial again with them, but not very likely (same speculations where for DM and Talamatis).
5th Mantimahle also joined his sons, not sure if he was still alive when they become territorial at around late 2021 (approx), but even if he was, he died/disappeared shortly after.
Only one who can think of as recent, territorial father and son/s coalition for longer time in Kruger, is Lubyelubye father and son. They where together since 2016, become territorial in 2019/20 (not sure on that exactly), up until Son went missing in mid-late 2021, and as we see Father lived up until these days.
So yea, a lot of father - son nomadic coalitions happen, but very little of those manage to become territorial together.
Thats why Notch story is so unique and rare.
Very helpful post, thank you. From my understanding of the circumstances, not only did the Notchs become territorial together, but I believe they actually became dominant males of the sons' natal pride, taking it back from the males who ousted them, making the situation even more rare, I'd imagine.
(08-17-2023, 10:08 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: A lot of males stay in company of their sons when they are ousted, but not many actually succeed to become territorial together, as most of those older males are around 10 or more years old when their sons are ready to challenge for territory (on average males produce their first offspring around 5 yrs old, and that offspring become territorial on average around 5, so thats ~ 10 yrs for father).
Being nomad at 10+ yrs old is hard, most males who got ousted in those years dont live for long, regardless if they have company or not (stress, fast pace, territorial males etc.). Having company is good and bad thing, sons are getting bigger and stronger, they will overpower their old fathers on kills etc.. Even Notch himself had hard time dealing with boys when they grew up, towards the end of his life, he didnt even hang with them.
Mohawk is over 10 yrs old, oldest boy is just over 4 yrs old, others not even that, if we judge by other up and coming coalitions in this area, they are atleast 1 year away from showing any territorial interests ( Kambulas and Talamatis are 1 year older and still didnt challenge anyone, BDMs also recently started challeging at 5 yrs of age).
I mean its possible that Mohawk becomes territorial again with them, but not very likely (same speculations where for DM and Talamatis).
5th Mantimahle also joined his sons, not sure if he was still alive when they become territorial at around late 2021 (approx), but even if he was, he died/disappeared shortly after.
Only one who can think of as recent, territorial father and son/s coalition for longer time in Kruger, is Lubyelubye father and son. They where together since 2016, become territorial in 2019/20 (not sure on that exactly), up until Son went missing in mid-late 2021, and as we see Father lived up until these days.
So yea, a lot of father - son nomadic coalitions happen, but very little of those manage to become territorial together.
Thats why Notch story is so unique and rare.
Very helpful post, thank you. From my understanding of the circumstances, not only did the Notchs become territorial together, but I believe they actually became dominant males of the sons' natal pride, taking it back from the males who ousted them, making the situation even more rare, I'd imagine.
In addition, Notch coalition was territorial for a long period of time
It'll come down to Mohawk's genes for age ( assuming he doesn't get killed in some other way ). He has just turned 10 recently, his brothers are a few months older and were in great shape, fighting 6 Nkhulus and what not. A healthy dominant 10yo male isn't far from his prime.
Some males with good genes reach 12, 13yo in good shape and healthy, some even reach 14 in decent shape, especially if they are still dominant ( though of course most don't ).
Currently Mohawk still roams his previous territory and isn't fully nomadic. He has company of 4 sons for a long time now, and also can hangout with his pride, stress levels and stuff shouldn't be that great and his sons were seen roaring recently.
It's quite possible for them, in a year from now, to become territorial. Especially having 5 in their coalition and having Avoca and Matimba blood, lions that showed territorial behaviour earlier than the average.
08-18-2023, 02:49 AM( This post was last modified: 08-18-2023, 03:47 AM by afortich )
(08-18-2023, 12:18 AM)Mapokser Wrote: It'll come down to Mohawk's genes for age ( assuming he doesn't get killed in some other way ). He has just turned 10 recently, his brothers are a few months older and were in great shape, fighting 6 Nkhulus and what not. A healthy dominant 10yo male isn't far from his prime.
Some males with good genes reach 12, 13yo in good shape and healthy, some even reach 14 in decent shape, especially if they are still dominant ( though of course most don't ).
Currently Mohawk still roams his previous territory and isn't fully nomadic. He has company of 4 sons for a long time now, and also can hangout with his pride, stress levels and stuff shouldn't be that great and his sons were seen roaring recently.
It's quite possible for them, in a year from now, to become territorial. Especially having 5 in their coalition and having Avoca and Matimba blood, lions that showed territorial behaviour earlier than the average.
Yep, I agree with u that, as of now, in this particular case of Mohawk, the conditions appoint to forming a coalition with his sons despite how rare this could be. Moreover, I think that it is rare if there is a coalition, which normally will oust the subadults but don't think is too rare in the solo male case scenario.
Actually, DM as a solo male was also moving in the same direction but was killed before it could materialize.
Yeah, but BDM didn't had any perspective of a new coalition, he was alone, DM was far from healthy, having his limp and everything. As for Nhenha he did formed a proper coalition despite being 12, and became dominant. He died in a fair territorial fight.
But yeah they are examples of old males who don't get to live longer because of the how harsh life is. It's no surprise they only live to 8-10 on average.
