There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
04-11-2025, 10:04 PM( This post was last modified: 04-11-2025, 10:09 PM by sunless )
(04-11-2025, 07:58 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote:
(04-11-2025, 11:59 AM)Mwk85 Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
K3 chasing Nkhuhumas (and Kambula's were then later chased by Manthimahles, apparently, really hope there is footage this time)
Just to add info
Seems like the Kambula Males have killed 3 buffalos as per Tendai Moyo comments 2 males are at a 1 buffalo kill while the other 1 is also with a 1 buffalo kill and 1 is missing and the missing Kambula is with another buffalo kill, seems like they separated due to food and its not a good time to be found by the Mantimahles alone.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Also cannot find any footage of the Mantimahles today really hoping there is photo/video that we can see.
04-11-2025, 10:37 PM( This post was last modified: 04-11-2025, 10:38 PM by Ngonya )
(04-11-2025, 10:04 PM)sunless Wrote:
Just to add info
Seems like the Kambula Males have killed 3 buffalos as per Tendai Moyo comments 2 males are at a 1 buffalo kill while the other 1 is also with a 1 buffalo kill and 1 is missing and the missing Kambula is with another buffalo kill, seems like they separated due to food and its not a good time to be found by the Mantimahles alone.
even if it was all 4 Kambulas it its very likely Mantimahle could chase them anyways, they did it more than once, it wouldnt be surprising to anyone, its factual Mantimahle are much stronger and confident individuals.
Deon also says Kambulas on plural so surely more than one.
I'm just surprised Kambulas chased the Nkuhuma pride.
They never fail at surprising me with their actions.
Now we wait to see the Kambulas showing up in Umbumke or whatever. I was thinking Mantimahle may not be interested enough in the area, giving the Kambulas a chance to take over, but clearly that wasn't the case, and the Kambula as everybody is tired of knowing, don't have what it takes to confront a strong duo.
They better be comprehended as eternal nomads, like Nkuhuma male or "Solo" male in his time. Sadly we are all so tendent to emotion, that even after rationally knowing the fact they won't behave like proper territorial males, I had a hope they would set their place this time.
Anyway, a very interesting phenomena, since their older brothers K1 and K2 seem to behave differently.
We keep talking about these animals as if the grand dream of every male lion cub is to lead the strongest and biggest coalition ever and take over a million prides and such.
We concider territorial males succesfull, while nomadic wanderers failures, not really worthwhile of our time. So they dont get the articles, GPS trackers and indepth studies.
But in reality, ethernal wanderers are probably just another type of underdocumented lion behavoir. They are getting the food they want. They know how to avoid trouble, and we all heard the statistic that almost half of lion cubs are not actually related to their pride males. So I think in their own way, they can be just as succesfull as their territorial counterparts. And the Kambulas are a good example of that.
04-12-2025, 02:29 AM( This post was last modified: 04-12-2025, 02:30 AM by KM600 )
(04-12-2025, 02:01 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: We keep talking about these animals as if the grand dream of every male lion cub is to lead the strongest and biggest coalition ever and take over a million prides and such.
We concider territorial males succesfull, while nomadic wanderers failures, not really worthwhile of our time. So they dont get the articles, GPS trackers and indepth studies.
But in reality, ethernal wanderers are probably just another type of underdocumented lion behavoir. They are getting the food they want. They know how to avoid trouble, and we all heard the statistic that almost half of lion cubs are not actually related to their pride males. So I think in their own way, they can be just as succesfull as their territorial counterparts. And the Kambulas are a good example of that.
I have arguments for both sides of this, while completely agreeing that their story is overlooked.
Living in general is a blessing, that’s success in itself, more so with wild animals where they can die so many ways every single day.
A lot of these lions may actually even sire cubs that we don’t know about. Jesse the popular nomad in Masai Mara would go into other lions territory, chase away a pride male to mate with their females, and then leave before reinforcement come. These are the males forced into nomadic life, after losing their partner, and are still very strong, just lack the numbers. I’d argue stronger than majority of the males around them.
It’s different with Kambulas as they have the numbers, and still get bullied by duos, when it’s seemingly clear they want to be dominant males in the north.
These ‘wanderers’ will never be as successful as their ‘territorial counterparts’ assuming they leave behind a good legacy. They may live just as good a life, but that’s different.
04-12-2025, 02:58 AM( This post was last modified: 04-12-2025, 02:59 AM by FACR2212 )
(04-12-2025, 02:01 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: We keep talking about these animals as if the grand dream of every male lion cub is to lead the strongest and biggest coalition ever and take over a million prides and such.
We concider territorial males succesfull, while nomadic wanderers failures, not really worthwhile of our time. So they dont get the articles, GPS trackers and indepth studies.
But in reality, ethernal wanderers are probably just another type of underdocumented lion behavoir. They are getting the food they want. They know how to avoid trouble, and we all heard the statistic that almost half of lion cubs are not actually related to their pride males. So I think in their own way, they can be just as succesfull as their territorial counterparts. And the Kambulas are a good example of that.
I disagree with you. Can you cite that statistic? How can you get a feasible statistic if the nomadic behaviour is underdocumented?
Territorial behaviour is a desirable trait from an evolutionary perspectice because allows to be more successful in siring offspring.
From what I understand, its from a genetic study in Etosha national park. Though while looking for it, I found all sorts of other figures. Ranging from 10 to 40%.
Id also assume its not actually 45 percent of all lion cubs in each pride. But a huge variation depending on the circumstance a pride is in.
As the study was done through genetic testing. There also was no need to monitor the lives of the fathers.
I dont think the idea isnt that strange. Lionesses often mate with those that they concider potential future pride males.
And while territorial behavoir is one way to ensure your ofspring makes to adulthood. A cub fathered by a nomadic wanderer, but born into a pride with a territorial make has the same protection. Its not that much different from what a cuckoo bird does.
The males themselves dont really care about the fate of their offspring. Ultimately the life of a male lion is about getting food and mating.
Even if none of their cubs make it. Aslong they are getting those two things, they are happy and content with life.
The First photo ( For The Father ) Dominant old leeupan/Mantimahle coalition ( Born in 1998/early 1999 ) , back to 2007 By : Carl Grossmann .
The Next picture for his famous son from Mantimahle pride born early 2006 ( Dark mane of Majingilane in 2010 at Djuma )
The 3rd photo in Bottom for the Hip Scar of Majingilane born in Mantimahle pride ( 2005 ) eating from Elephant Carcase By :- MJacklin in 2010 .
The 4th last picture for the ( Three tooth/ Tyson ) Of 2 Muntshe duo coalition that become Gomondwane pride male lions in early 2014/late 2013 By Jérôme Phoun taken in Jan 2014 ( born in very early 2008 ) .
04-12-2025, 11:08 AM( This post was last modified: 04-12-2025, 12:21 PM by Tr1x24 )
(04-12-2025, 02:58 AM)FACR2212 Wrote: Territorial behaviour is a desirable trait from an evolutionary perspectice because allows to be more successful in siring offspring.
(04-12-2025, 04:00 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The males themselves dont really care about the fate of their offspring. Ultimately the life of a male lion is about getting food and mating.
Even if none of their cubs make it. Aslong they are getting those two things, they are happy and content with life.
We are "judging" male lions success thru how much legacy/offspring they leave behind, but i dont think it matters that much for male lions themselves.
If that was to be, we wouldnt see males/coalitions abandoning their offspring prematurely for other opportunities (mating mostly) left and right.
Just more recent examples are Ndhzengas abandoning 1 year old offspring in Styx pride for new territory and Kambulas, or PCMs pretty much not hanging and protecting their Mhangeni offspring after theres no females in estrus anymore (80% of those cubs/subs in Styx and Mhangeni prides died because Ndhzengas and PCMs "cared" about their legacy and genes).
And this is normal behavior for pretty much all males who have those opportunities, with countless examples, which suggest that for male lions mating opportunities > protecting offspring.
Males who are seemingly "good fathers" and protectors, staying with pride for long time so their offspring matures, are ones who dont have other opportunities. For example, RRM would not be with Nharus for 6 years if he has other opportunities, but as lone male, his opportunities are limited.
Obviously territorial males/coalitions will have more access to females than nomads, which means, just by the numbers and math, that their offspring has more chances to succeed (lets say X territorial male mated with 15 females over his life, while Y nomad with 5).
So access to females is actually key thing about territorial life, but nomads who have that without being fully territorial, are pretty much in the same basket.
Also, in coalitions, lower ranking members in hierarcy prob have very limited access to females, prob even lower than him being alone or nomad, which is why some males split and go their own way.
04-12-2025, 11:51 AM( This post was last modified: 04-12-2025, 12:44 PM by Tr1x24 )
(04-12-2025, 02:01 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: We keep talking about these animals as if the grand dream of every male lion cub is to lead the strongest and biggest coalition ever and take over a million prides and such.
We concider territorial males succesfull, while nomadic wanderers failures, not really worthwhile of our time. So they dont get the articles, GPS trackers and indepth studies.
But in reality, ethernal wanderers are probably just another type of underdocumented lion behavoir. They are getting the food they want. They know how to avoid trouble, and we all heard the statistic that almost half of lion cubs are not actually related to their pride males. So I think in their own way, they can be just as succesfull as their territorial counterparts. And the Kambulas are a good example of that.
Just as theres males/coalitions who will thrive in territorial life, theres nomads who will thrive in nomadic life (NK for example).
On the other hand, theres also territorials who will get killed in a year of territorial life (or be on the bottom of hierarcy), same as nomads who will struggle in nomadic life.
So we should prob not judge in a way of territorial = success, nomad = failure, as thats not correct, as some nomads live same or better life than some territorials.
Also, territorial life is not "heaven", its prob same or more dangerous than nomadic, as you need to be ready to fight other male lions to death every day, while nomads can just run away and seek other opportunities.
I reckon any male who makes it to adulthood is already incredibly successful. The odds might be like 1 in 8 for male lions.
“Success” is a totally arbitrary concept anyway. Some say that Mapogos weren't successful, because they killed their own cubs and don't have descendants from male bloodline. Many others consider them the greatest coalition that ever lived, it's a relative thing.
(04-12-2025, 12:40 PM)Akiz97 Wrote: I reckon any male who makes it to adulthood is already incredibly successful. The odds might be like 1 in 8 for male lions.
“Success” is a totally arbitrary concept anyway. Some say that Mapogos weren't successful, because they killed their own cubs and don't have descendants from male bloodline. Many others consider them the greatest coalition that ever lived, it's a relative thing.
Also same for many coalition we know Majingilanes ..etc .
Majingilane for example thier offspring from the male side are sadly unlucky same as Mapogos .
But the bloodline keeping with thier offspring from the females sides .
About Mapogos Thanks to God that bring the legendery Makhulu for the Sparta boys ( He ) made them very succsefull coalition and become the Great leader of Mapogos ( he beloved by many of us even with the prides he ruled ) he is a Great Father .
And yet i see some stupied hardcore fans blame him and Pretty boy for not Helping Mr.T during the fight with Selati male lions .
Mak really old lion in his age many lost thier pride for the new males .
RIP Makhulu Mapogos and all past lions that lived in Sabi Sands and make history .
04-12-2025, 07:49 PM( This post was last modified: 04-12-2025, 07:50 PM by FACR2212 )
(04-12-2025, 04:00 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: From what I understand, its from a genetic study in Etosha national park. Though while looking for it, I found all sorts of other figures. Ranging from 10 to 40%.
Id also assume its not actually 45 percent of all lion cubs in each pride. But a huge variation depending on the circumstance a pride is in.
As the study was done through genetic testing. There also was no need to monitor the lives of the fathers.
Ok, then we can agree that most cubs are related to their pride males. Nevertheless, the fact that 10-45% percent is related to other males, doesn't mean that % is sired by nomadic males. We have seen many examples of pregnant females of territorial males who mate with new dominant males while being pregnant, after a take over, and those cubs are accepted by the new dominant males. I mean, the percentage of cubs not related to dominant males are probably related to other males with territorial behaviour that had control over the pride previously. Finally, I think there is a very minor % of cubs sired by really nomadic males. Just take into account what we know of Sabi Sands, an area of which we have a lot of knowledge.
.