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Lions of Sabi Sands

United Kingdom KM600 Offline
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(12-24-2023, 01:36 PM)Potato Wrote:
(12-24-2023, 04:57 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Again, 2 Matimbas settled in Londolozi with 5 Birminghams to their north, 4 Majingilane to their west and 2 Matshipiri to their east.
1. Matimbas had prize in Londolozi in form of Tsalala pride. What for would any coalition settle down in Londolozi right now?

2. That was not a typical situation, but an extreme one. Londolozi guides even were making jokes that Matimbas have smaller territory than leopards which is... unussual for a male coalition. Althrough such situations can happen it will very extreme rare so why count on that to happen...


3. Matimbas in that peroid of time (not even 1 and half year) had like 8 confrontations with Matimbas and in the end were ousted by Matshapiris. It shows that there clearly were not enough space for every coalition and such situation could least only for so long untill one coalition get to manage to oust another. Situation when some coalition right now try to settle down in Londolozi and live peacefully between Ndzengas, PCs, Black Dams or Kambulas is not going to happen.

Spot on, this former logic doesn’t work as it doesn’t take into consideration the lack of females in Londolozi nor the surrounding coalitions. Look at PCMs and Ndhzengas for example, both coalitions have huge territory that goes into Londolozi, neither coalition recently looks like they’re willing to give that up.

 We’ve seen the PCMS go far East into Northern Londolozi after presumable chasing or picking up the scent of the Kambula males, while being there they was then said to have had an altercation with the Ndhzengas. Just a few days ago they chased the Talamati males and set after male lions roaring either on the edge of their territory or in their territory, whether this was the original altercation with the Talamati males before stealing their buffalo kill, we don’t know. 

Ndhzengas been very active going into Northern Sabi Sands and have seemingly pushed Skorro YM West from his original territory, both chases were recently meaning it’s possible they chased Nkuhuma Male too. 

These are two coalitions who clearly feel some type of way about allowing an additional coalition this close to their territory, so if someone was ever to takeover Londolozi, no way is it permanent. They’re either losing their territory, or taking over more territory within Sabi Sands and expanding themselves.
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Philippines Redroadmale Offline
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How old are the ndzenga males.
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Philippines Redroadmale Offline
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How old is the nkuhuma male
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Philippines Redroadmale Offline
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Is Mohawk and the Nym in kruger
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South Africa Wyld@Heart Offline
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I think alot of the speculation about the territories is being spoke of in absolutes which, in my honest opinion, is a misconception. We tend to see things like territories in a way we see settlements without taking into account that these creatures can live out a fluid lifestyle that can take them to live out their lives in an area far removed from where they started out.

Take the Talamati pride, for example. A couple of years ago S8 came in, a few went their own way with him and the subs and Dark Mane started a nomadic existence that took them to quite a few corners of the Sabi Sands and the Manyaleti and have have now carved out a territory of their own south of the Sand with the Gijima males. This is how new prides in 'new' territories come into being and has done so since time immemorial.

The PC control huge territory to the West, Ndzenga to the West but both are only duos, as are the Gijima males to the South and to the North the BDM. Duos the lot and as susceptible to the whims of the bush as any other. Londolozi has overlapping territories with no one pride being sedentary or using it as their core territory. That could change at some point, just as at any point a really strong coalition could pressure the surround coalitions to cede territory or move boundaries. I, for one, certainly don't see it as 'too small' being a factor. Provided there are pride opportunities and sufficient game density there are always the possibilities for a determined and strong group to elbow in.
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Duco Ndona Offline
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That would still mean taking on six rival lions just to secure an area with only the Tsalala lioness in there. Who, being a leopard lioness is more likely to flee.
Any coalition strong enough to fit that bill, would thus much rather move out of londolozi and settle down with the Mhangeni, Kambulas and such. Which they would be very easily capable off taking over, rather than hanging out in nolions land just for the bragging rights of controlling Londolozi.
So this specific circumstance would require a lion coalition strong enough to defeat its rivals to keep them out of Londolozi. But at the same time not strong enough to defeat its rivals to keep the coalition from leaving Londolozi.  

Its the same for a pride. A pride large enough to chase of the Mhangeni, Nkuhumas and Talamiti etc would have to be big. A breakaway or wandering lioness just wont cut it. 
However a pride that big doesn't just come out of nowhere. And if they can destroy the mhangeni. There is little stopping them from taking western sector. 

Offcource its always possible for things to shift. But it would require a big shift in the pride dynamics, like a plague felling the lions or a long string of disasters hitting the prides. Not something I can see a singular pride or coalition accomplish.
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Tonpa Offline
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Monday, 18 December 2023
  • Two Mantimahle male lion’s stationary on Champayne Clearing.
  • Talamati Breakaway pride of lions consisting of one lioness and two young males’ stationary north of the Buffelshoek Gowrie Cutline. [All four together on WildEarth that morning]
Tuesday, 19 December 2023
  • One Kambula male lion and one Nkuhuma lioness stationary at Sherley’s Open.
  • Nkuhuma pride of lions consisting of four lioness stationary on Arathusa Main Road north of Serengeti Open.
Wednesday, 20 December 2023
  • Two Black Dam male lion’s stationary on Seepline West.
Friday, 22 December 2023
  • Two Black Dam male lion’s stationary on Arathusa Main Road junction Grass Cut.
  • The Kambula breakaways consisting of four male and one lioness stationary on Djuma Old Entrance Nkorho.
Saturday, 23 December 2023
  • The Nkuhuma pride of lions consisting of four individuals’ mobile north along Zebra Drive.
Sunday, 24 December 2023
  • The Nkuhuma pride of lions consisting of five individuals’ stationary north of Leeukuil Pan.
https://elephantplains.co.za/big-5-blog/...mber-2023/
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United Kingdom KM600 Offline
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(12-24-2023, 10:43 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: So this specific circumstance would require a lion coalition strong enough to defeat its rivals to keep them out of Londolozi. But at the same time not strong enough to defeat its rivals to keep the coalition from leaving Londolozi.  

This point exactly
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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@Ttimemarti they fought multiple times. They left because they got caught alone.

@Tr1x24 It lasted almost 1,5 year, and they lost to Matshipiris because they were unlucky to get caught alone as they have never had trouble dealing with Matshipiri. Majingilanes were never able to oust them despite trying multiple times.

And there is enough space, the Tsalala pride has historically being the Londolozi pride, the reason there's not a coalition and pride there is because the Tsalala is alone and the Skorro male is also alone, with all his rivals being duos. If Skorro still had his brother they'd be fully territorial there. PCM almost never crosses to Londolozi and Ndhzengas have their core territory most to the east and probably wouldn't even be interested in challenging the Skorros for most of Londolozi.
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South Africa Wyld@Heart Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-25-2023, 12:46 AM by Wyld@Heart )

(12-24-2023, 10:43 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its the same for a pride. A pride large enough to chase of the Mhangeni, Nkuhumas and Talamiti etc would have to be big.
It's always about the pride. Male lions will always include a pride territory within their own, that's why we have takeovers as such. As for a big pride coming in and assuming that is the only way for a pride to carve out a territory from a big pre existing is again a misconception. Pride numbers, how many female cubs can be raised to maturity, prey density and the ability to keep a pride fed play a massive role in the shifting boundaries of pride territories. The growing numbers of these prides should the female cubs be successfully raised to adulthood, will inevitably result in breakaway/sister prides. We are already seeing that around the Sabi Sands and as those breakaways raise cubs of their own the split becomes pretty much set and thus existing pride territories shift and interchange. 

These processes can play out over years and even decades. We are simply looking at a snapshot in time right as it is. We only have to look back at the last three decades of the history of the Sabi Sands alone to see how prides can come and go, some to fade into the past and others to grow and thrive. To speak in absolutes because of how we perceive things to be just in this moment is strange to me, especially as we've literally just seen the Talamati pride come of age and set up shop in and around that area before our very eyes. Change in the bush, and everywhere I suppose, is the only constant even though those changes can take years in manifesting and is rarely predictable. I personally don't think it out of the realms of possibility for a breakaway/sister pride to find a niche in Londolozi or even Tsalala to raise a litter to adulthood and pride male/s to folloe

*sorry, I've edited this post a few times. Having a few issues on my phone.
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Ttimemarti Offline
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I’ve never heard of the matimbas being defeated for their territory this is a first for me all I was told is that they left and moved to manyleti but it was definitely some pressure from the surrounding coalitions but didn’t know they where defeated ig
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Tr1x24 Online
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Kambulas on most slides, also Mohawk and sons on some:

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Panama Mapokser Offline
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NK and Skorro have "officially" formed a coalition! I'm excited for this.

There's a video of them bonding! I hope someone can post it here, if I get the link to the post I'll share here, for now this photo:


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada Robot00 Offline
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Nice...very nice...a little while back when young skorro was on his way southward i had a little excitement saying imagine the NK male linking up with jr.NK's son the skorro young male. Now this news. Hopefully NK has gotten a new partner since his dad's unfortunate demise.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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