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Lions of Sabi Sands

Tonpa Offline
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The two talamati boys present today by Ricci Goldstein 


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Tonpa Offline
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Some really cool footage of the Othawa cubbies fighting each other over meat. A lot of amazing sounds 




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Timbavati Offline
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The Imbali male at Djuma
Caption: Wet and wild
Cold, wet and miserable morning in Sabi Sands, but lots of excitement. This big male was sent running with his tale between his legs, after being spotted by a large buffalo herd.
Photo credits: Irene Kelly

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Tr1x24 Offline
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(10-18-2021, 06:12 PM)Timbavati Wrote: The Imbali male at Djuma
Caption: Wet and wild
Cold, wet and miserable morning in Sabi Sands, but lots of excitement. This big male was sent running with his tale between his legs, after being spotted by a large buffalo herd.
Photo credits: Irene Kelly

*This image is copyright of its original author

He was with 2 Talamati females:

Photo Credits : Irene Kelly


*This image is copyright of its original author
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United States criollo2mil Offline
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(10-18-2021, 08:37 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 06:12 PM)Timbavati Wrote: The Imbali male at Djuma
Caption: Wet and wild
Cold, wet and miserable morning in Sabi Sands, but lots of excitement. This big male was sent running with his tale between his legs, after being spotted by a large buffalo herd.
Photo credits: Irene Kelly

*This image is copyright of its original author

He was with 2 Talamati females:

Photo Credits : Irene Kelly


*This image is copyright of its original author

A separate post in Lion Sands had him with 3.  I also read somewhere about cubs but I haven’t seen them pictured anywhere….has anyone seen them?   Can confirm?

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Tonpa Offline
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Any more photos of the girls? The lioness in the front is the one who gave birth in late June but we've seen no sign of any cubs aside from her suckle marks
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United States Mohawk Offline
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(10-15-2021, 05:52 PM)Mdz123 Wrote: Gotta say, most of Majingilane males sons weren’t so succesful, but they sired way more daughters and granddaughters that reached adulthood. So their bloodline is much stronger then most people think.

The Daughters of the Othawa male are doing well. I hope they extend the Majingilane bloodline by mating with other males.

Many lion enthusiasts, MYSELF INCLUDED, tend to follow the males more closely.  Some take it a step further and more or less ignore the females when talking about bloodlines, which is a big mistake in my opinion.

Bibi Tsalala, the Original Tailless Tsalala Lioness, is the prime example of why that sort of thinking is a mistake.  Her genes are some of the most dominant in the Sabi Sands.  She was the only survivor of the Ximhungwe Breakaway and raised two cubs that eventually spawned a breakaway that spawned a breakaway that seems to be in the process of spawning another breakaway.  Even if Bibi's father (whoever he was) sired no other offspring at all, his bloodline is still one of the most dominant in the Sabi Sands thanks to his daughter.

Males generally spread the genes further abroad, but lionesses are better at ensuring survival of a bloodline.  And they pass on the traits of their sires just as well as the males do.  The Birmingham Pride is a prime example.  Tinyo is smaller, but his mane would make his grandfathers, the Old Skybeds, proud.  The Majingilane weren't big males, but the Othawa Male was a tank thanks to either Makhulu or maybe Dreadlocks.  

The Mapogos only had two sons survive to adulthood and they disappeared into Kruger, but their bloodline is one of the strongest in the Sabi Sands thanks to their daughters.  Junior Matimba is dead and many of the other Southern Matimba sons are either dead or in Kruger, but their bloodline lives on with their daughters in the Nkuhuma, Talamati, and Torchwood Prides.  I'm hoping their Othawa sons are alive as well as Junior Majingi, but even if not, Sassy Jr. can carry all four bloodlines if she survives.  Majingalane sons may not be super successful yet (that we know of), but they have at least one daughter in just about every pride in the Sabi Sands.

Another part of the bloodline conversation that gets lost is that females are more loyal to their offspring than they are to males that dominate their pride.  I would bet money that all of the 2018/2019 Ntsevu/Kambula cubs were sired by the BBoys, but I would not make that same bet about the 2021 cubs.  It's very possible that they were, and Bboys will get the credit regardless, but the Ntsevus were mating with every lion they crossed path with in hopes that whatever coalition rules the land won't kill the cubs. 

And that is quite a common occurrence. When a coalition is small or spread really thin, nomads or males from surrounding coalitions often sneak in and mate with any female that they can. 

I have posted in the past about how it's impossible to determine lion paternity.  Nothing wrong with speculation, but it's just that, speculation.  This post is kind of a continuation of that.  We could argue until our fingers fall off about whether or not the Mapogos had any offspring in the Nkuhuma Pride, or if the Matimbas sired any of the 2015 Mhangeni cubs, or who sired the missing Ximhungwe cub, or who sired the most recent Mbiri cubs, or who sired the most recent Ntsevu cubs, etc.  One thing that can't be argued is which Pride they were born into. 

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers or sound condescending.  Just stating an obvious point that often gets lost in the bloodline argument.
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Tonpa Offline
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Ximhungwe lioness back in Northern Sabi. Time to start the cycle again.... 
Photo by Sabre Rayne Meeser

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Duco Ndona Offline
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Personally I never been a fan of all that bloodline stuff. Especially if it comes to male lions.
Its just pushing a weird narrative and expectations on those poor animals. While ultimately it usually amounts to nothing anyway.

And yeah, often it just completely ignores the lionesses. Which honestly are the real core of lion society.
All the coalitions will be largely forgotten in a few decades. While most of the prides will still be there.


Anyway. Its a pity the Ximhungwe lioness left again. I was hoping she would take back their old territory. Then again, its not like the spot didn't do anyone good. That she left alone confirms she lost her cub.
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Canada Mdz123 Offline
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(10-19-2021, 02:24 AM)Tonpa Wrote: Ximhungwe lioness back in Northern Sabi. Time to start the cycle again.... 
Photo by Sabre Rayne Meeser

*This image is copyright of its original author

She could bump into N. Avocas if she is in the Arathusa area. This will be interesting if she decides to stay
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United States kobe8jf1234 Offline
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(10-18-2021, 01:11 AM)Tonpa Wrote: The two talamati boys present today by Ricci Goldstein 


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where the third one
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United States criollo2mil Offline
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(10-19-2021, 08:05 AM)kobe8jf1234 Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 01:11 AM)Tonpa Wrote: The two talamati boys present today by Ricci Goldstein 


*This image is copyright of its original author
where the third one

The Talamati Sub Males are split in two groups.   Two are with the group with Dark mane, and one is with a group that includes Silver Eye.
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Tonpa Offline
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More S8 Male by Ann Lewinsky


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with his talamati girls 

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Tonpa Offline
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S8 Male with one of the Talamati girls - Taken by Tania Steyn a few weeks back 


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Thierry Offline
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(10-19-2021, 02:24 AM)Mohawk Wrote: Bibi Tsalala, the Original Tailless Tsalala Lioness, is the prime example of why that sort of thinking is a mistake.  Her genes are some of the most dominant in the Sabi Sands.  She was the only survivor of the Ximhungwe Breakaway and raised two cubs that eventually spawned a breakaway that spawned a breakaway that seems to be in the process of spawning another breakaway.  Even if Bibi's father (whoever he was) sired no other offspring at all, his bloodline is still one of the most dominant in the Sabi Sands thanks to his daughter.
 
We must beware of paradoxes, smile ...
Here it is a question of the genetic transmission by the maternal lineage, but only from the point of view of the presumed paternal inheritance, the whole, in the will to put in perspective the importance of the maternal line in the perpetuation of the genetic inheritance ...
After a good start, we come to the opposite conclusion, the strength of Bibi's father's blood line, of what what was supposed to be demonstrated.
It's a bit like the dog biting its tail.
I understand, of course, what you meant, but I wanted to point out, that it is difficult not to give in to certain reflexes.

It is difficult to determine the main generator in a bloodline, or to attribute such or such apparently hereditary characteristic to the maternal or paternal line with certainty. This is all the less so as the monitoring of populations is not absolutely possible.
We then tend to focus on physical appearances, which very often, when they are really detectable and distinctive, seem to emerge from the paternal genetic heritage, according to the latest studies in the field (to be taken with a grain of salt, both scientific advances tend to contradict each other as they evolve).
Our considerations in this regard can therefore only be subject to caution and necessarily arbitrary.
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