There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(05-24-2024, 01:31 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: There simply has to be a showdown soon doesn't there? The Nkhuma's are the only mating eligible pride at the moment, and you have Skorro and NK messing around in the West, Khanya and the Kambula's messing around in the north (I am very curious still what happens when sister draws Estrus), and the PCM's trying to live in all the worlds. Sooner or later someone has to get caught right? The shame of it is, the Nkhuma's will catch the worst of this most likely.
I am also worried about what this means for the Othawa's and Ridge's subs.
Technically PCMs possibly abandoning part of the West is good for the Othawas as it’s likely Skorro and Nkuhuma could settle down - neither should be a threat to the lionesses if they pursue this current coalition. Obviously wouldn’t be ideal when they come into estrus and have a need to mate. As for Nkuhuma breakaways, they are in a very tough situation that I don’t think gets affected by any of the male lion dynamics in the area. Would love to see the female join the Othawas and the male go searching for his own partners too but as of right now them being alive and in good condition, especially given their age and their nomadic status, that’s enough.
The Kambula lioness has already been in estrus and it’s clear the males would willingly mate with her, she’s the one holding back. As for there being a showdown, I agree, someone coalition / male lion is gonna take a heavy beating at some point being in close proximity to so many others. I actually have a feeling BDMs might go back into Manyeleti as we on this topic.
I was remembering when the two younger Kambula sisters born in a younger litter. They returned some time after with their mothers. I wanted to ask is the young Birmingham daughter with the Kambula male lions is her mom with the group of 5 lionesses or is she where there are 3 lionesses and 3 cubs? Or her mom has not been seen? I was thinking she is a bit older now. If the lionesses accept her then she might be able to come back to the pride? I was thinking maybe she could join and get accepted with the 3 lionesses and 3 cubs.
Yup k12 the female who is with her brothers her mother is k5 who is with the 4 Birmingham kambulas in the core pride I believe k3,k4 and k5s mother died but I don’t think they’d let her join the big pride maybe the smaller pride but k6 is unpredictable well all 3 of the smaller pride females are extra aggressive and it’s been too long they probably don’t remember her but you never know
Hi then it would make more sense if she tried to join the bigger pride where her mother is. Maybe if she sees the pride of 3 lionesses and 3 cubs maybe she could join if they are friendly, but nobody knows what will happens. I just think she would be more drawn to her mother and or her cousins in the pride.
No no no the bigger pride kicked out the 3 other kambula females so them letting a female they haven’t seen in a year in a half would be impossible and they have cubs already even tho I believe k2 is the mother of two of the kambula 4 kambula girls k9 and k10 I believe And again it was k6 that chased k12 away when she tried to return to the pride the first time
(05-24-2024, 01:31 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: There simply has to be a showdown soon doesn't there? The Nkhuma's are the only mating eligible pride at the moment, and you have Skorro and NK messing around in the West, Khanya and the Kambula's messing around in the north (I am very curious still what happens when sister draws Estrus), and the PCM's trying to live in all the worlds. Sooner or later someone has to get caught right? The shame of it is, the Nkhuma's will catch the worst of this most likely.
I am also worried about what this means for the Othawa's and Ridge's subs.
Technically PCMs possibly abandoning part of the West is good for the Othawas as it’s likely Skorro and Nkuhuma could settle down - neither should be a threat to the lionesses if they pursue this current coalition. Obviously wouldn’t be ideal when they come into estrus and have a need to mate. As for Nkuhuma breakaways, they are in a very tough situation that I don’t think gets affected by any of the male lion dynamics in the area. Would love to see the female join the Othawas and the male go searching for his own partners too but as of right now them being alive and in good condition, especially given their age and their nomadic status, that’s enough.
The Kambula lioness has already been in estrus and it’s clear the males would willingly mate with her, she’s the one holding back. As for there being a showdown, I agree, someone coalition / male lion is gonna take a heavy beating at some point being in close proximity to so many others. I actually have a feeling BDMs might go back into Manyeleti as we on this topic.
I have to disagree with Skorro Jr and Nkuhuma being better for the Othawas. The girls won't mate with their father, it's one of the built-in/innate preventers of inbreeding. And they are certainly more of a danger to the Nkuhuma breakaways. The NB girl won't work with the Othawas, because even if she joined them, they'll come into eustrus way sooner than she will, and she'll just get chased off again, or killed.
Loonkito was rumored to have bred with his granddaughters, who he himself had helped create. For sure it is known that he bred with his daughters, as when they became pregnant he had been the only male over the pride for quite an extended time.
Males have been observed, countless times, mock mounting other males, in what we're told is bonding or an attempt to secure dominance. Would they not do that to females as well?
Talk about keeping it in the family. Jesus. So it can happen then.
Just searched for Loonkito, the Africa's oldest lion, who was speared to death by villagers in Kenya. What a sad end for a very old lion. Those villagers can go to hell.
He was one of the lions I followed because he was so rare for his age. He and Spearboy who also has to be gone now. It was so frustrating when he was killed. He was well known to the villagers as well. He broke into an enclosure to kill cattle rather than ranchers that brought their cattle to him. Still terrible.
05-24-2024, 09:51 PM( This post was last modified: 05-24-2024, 09:52 PM by BA0701 )
(05-24-2024, 08:35 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote:
(05-24-2024, 07:51 PM)NLAL11 Wrote:
(05-24-2024, 07:05 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(05-24-2024, 01:20 PM)NLAL11 Wrote:
(05-24-2024, 04:59 AM)KM600 Wrote:
(05-24-2024, 01:31 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: There simply has to be a showdown soon doesn't there? The Nkhuma's are the only mating eligible pride at the moment, and you have Skorro and NK messing around in the West, Khanya and the Kambula's messing around in the north (I am very curious still what happens when sister draws Estrus), and the PCM's trying to live in all the worlds. Sooner or later someone has to get caught right? The shame of it is, the Nkhuma's will catch the worst of this most likely.
I am also worried about what this means for the Othawa's and Ridge's subs.
Technically PCMs possibly abandoning part of the West is good for the Othawas as it’s likely Skorro and Nkuhuma could settle down - neither should be a threat to the lionesses if they pursue this current coalition. Obviously wouldn’t be ideal when they come into estrus and have a need to mate. As for Nkuhuma breakaways, they are in a very tough situation that I don’t think gets affected by any of the male lion dynamics in the area. Would love to see the female join the Othawas and the male go searching for his own partners too but as of right now them being alive and in good condition, especially given their age and their nomadic status, that’s enough.
The Kambula lioness has already been in estrus and it’s clear the males would willingly mate with her, she’s the one holding back. As for there being a showdown, I agree, someone coalition / male lion is gonna take a heavy beating at some point being in close proximity to so many others. I actually have a feeling BDMs might go back into Manyeleti as we on this topic.
I have to disagree with Skorro Jr and Nkuhuma being better for the Othawas. The girls won't mate with their father, it's one of the built-in/innate preventers of inbreeding. And they are certainly more of a danger to the Nkuhuma breakaways. The NB girl won't work with the Othawas, because even if she joined them, they'll come into eustrus way sooner than she will, and she'll just get chased off again, or killed.
Loonkito was rumored to have bred with his granddaughters, who he himself had helped create. For sure it is known that he bred with his daughters, as when they became pregnant he had been the only male over the pride for quite an extended time.
Males have been observed, countless times, mock mounting other males, in what we're told is bonding or an attempt to secure dominance. Would they not do that to females as well?
Talk about keeping it in the family. Jesus. So it can happen then.
Just searched for Loonkito, the Africa's oldest lion, who was speared to death by villagers in Kenya. What a sad end for a very old lion. Those villagers can go to hell.
He was one of the lions I followed because he was so rare for his age. He and Spearboy who also has to be gone now. It was so frustrating when he was killed. He was well known to the villagers as well. He broke into an enclosure to kill cattle rather than ranchers that brought their cattle to him. Still terrible.
From being the winner of the most brutal, and most prolonged, fight I have ever seen on video (to be honest, I thought there was no way either of those males was going to survive after seeing that), to going out like he did, at the age he had reached (almost 20) in the wild, it will never sit well with me.
As for north situation, i actually think its very possible that PCMs and Kambulas "split" the north territory, similary how S8 and N.Avocas/later BDMs did thru 22-23, with PCMs being in south, while Kambulas in north.
PCMs would initially take NKs, as they are, but they eventually might get outmuscled by Kambulas.
In this situation NKs would get biggest L, if they give birth to PCMs cubs.
This is just a theory, but it might play out that way (unless Kambulas opt out from the area).
The following 1 user Likes Tr1x24's post:1 user Likes Tr1x24's post • BA0701
(05-24-2024, 10:02 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: As for north situation, i actually think its very possible that PCMs and Kambulas "split" the north territory, similary how S8 and N.Avocas/later BDMs did thru 22-23, with PCMs being in south, while Kambulas in north.
PCMs would initially take NKs, as they are, but they eventually might get outmuscled by Kambulas.
In this situation NKs would get biggest L, if they give birth to PCMs cubs.
This is just a theory, but it might play out that way (unless Kambulas opt out from the area).
My thoughts are that the PCM's spread themselves too thin, and in one of their arguments they split up get too far away from each other and one of them gets caught. It's just too big of an area for them to keep running back and forth in.
(05-24-2024, 10:05 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote: My thoughts are that the PCM's spread themselves too thin, and in one of their arguments they split up get too far away from each other and one of them gets caught. It's just too big of an area for them to keep running back and forth in.
Well, its yet to be seen if they will abandon West or no.
They prob will eventually, unless Kambulas show resistence in the north soon.
The following 1 user Likes Tr1x24's post:1 user Likes Tr1x24's post • BA0701
Slightly hot take but I don't actually see it as a complete shift in territory...
The PCMs have stopped patrolling the south of the western sector, which is where Savanna is. That's why Nkuhuma and Tumbela have been relatively unscathed and have been seen outside the Savanna lodge, and that's where the Othawas are too, because the PCMs have moved their territory to the northern half of the western sector.
Now the PCMs have occupied Elephant Plains and parts of Simbambili/Arathusa, which is in the southwestern part of the northern sector. The Kambula boys have been seen primarily in Djuma and Chitwa Chitwa and Nkorho recently.
So there is a small overlap there, but let's hope it's not too significant. The territory the PCMs patrol is almost akin to the whole of the western sector which they used to occupy. They are still seen in the west with the Ximunghwes (they were there yesterday) so it is doable to traverse this distance (so far). The complication comes if the Nkuhumas start pulling the PCMs far too east (which may happen within the next few weeks). But as of now I see a potential balance to be struck in which no one is too unhappy.
They're travelling probably 25+ km daily, they are seen in the Western Sector in a day and the next one they are already back in the north, which has happened a few times.
It's obviously unsustainable. Something will happen soon, either be them abandoning the Western Sector or being forced to return by Kambulas, while praying the Kambulas won't pressure them in their original territory.
This would be the logical outcome, Kambulas ousting PCM from the north, but I've been expecting the Kambulas to be dominant for more than half a year now, but nothing yet, so the thought the Kambulas, even as 4, ousting the PCM, sounds impossible, which again, is very weird, normally 2 lions wouldn't stand a chance against 4 who are almost 6yo and have ousted another dominant duo already.
(05-24-2024, 01:31 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: There simply has to be a showdown soon doesn't there? The Nkhuma's are the only mating eligible pride at the moment, and you have Skorro and NK messing around in the West, Khanya and the Kambula's messing around in the north (I am very curious still what happens when sister draws Estrus), and the PCM's trying to live in all the worlds. Sooner or later someone has to get caught right? The shame of it is, the Nkhuma's will catch the worst of this most likely.
I am also worried about what this means for the Othawa's and Ridge's subs.
Technically PCMs possibly abandoning part of the West is good for the Othawas as it’s likely Skorro and Nkuhuma could settle down - neither should be a threat to the lionesses if they pursue this current coalition. Obviously wouldn’t be ideal when they come into estrus and have a need to mate. As for Nkuhuma breakaways, they are in a very tough situation that I don’t think gets affected by any of the male lion dynamics in the area. Would love to see the female join the Othawas and the male go searching for his own partners too but as of right now them being alive and in good condition, especially given their age and their nomadic status, that’s enough.
The Kambula lioness has already been in estrus and it’s clear the males would willingly mate with her, she’s the one holding back. As for there being a showdown, I agree, someone coalition / male lion is gonna take a heavy beating at some point being in close proximity to so many others. I actually have a feeling BDMs might go back into Manyeleti as we on this topic.
I have to disagree with Skorro Jr and Nkuhuma being better for the Othawas. The girls won't mate with their father, it's one of the built-in/innate preventers of inbreeding. And they are certainly more of a danger to the Nkuhuma breakaways. The NB girl won't work with the Othawas, because even if she joined them, they'll come into eustrus way sooner than she will, and she'll just get chased off again, or killed.
Loonkito was rumored to have bred with his granddaughters, who he himself had helped create. For sure it is known that he bred with his daughters, as when they became pregnant he had been the only male over the pride for quite an extended time.
Males have been observed, countless times, mock mounting other males, in what we're told is bonding or an attempt to secure dominance. Would they not do that to females as well?
Talk about keeping it in the family. Jesus. So it can happen then.
Just searched for Loonkito, the Africa's oldest lion, who was speared to death by villagers in Kenya. What a sad end for a very old lion. Those villagers can go to hell.
I was with you up until the last part about the villagers going to hell.
The internet community is extremely quick to paint local communities in a bad light from the comfort of their homes but can not be bothered to consider the consequences of co-existing with dangerous wildlife on a day to day basis. Furthermore, with increasing urbanization and poverty on the continent, it's not like everyone can simply pack up and leave the wilderness. So, the next best thing is to continue with what has been putting food on the table for generations-farming- simply because there is no other viable alternative for them.
I love wildlife as much as the next person and human interference is something to be reduced as far as possible, but that doesn't mean we must demonize local communities for protecting their only livelihood by any means necessary. Especially in the context of East Africa where protected areas are working with local communities to mitigate human-wildlife conflict and so a lot of these killings often happen as a last resort.
All that anger is better reserved for rich trophy hunters who kill for pleasure.
(05-24-2024, 10:39 PM)Mapokser Wrote: They're travelling probably 25+ km daily, they are seen in the Western Sector in a day and the next one they are already back in the north, which has happened a few times.
It's obviously unsustainable. Something will happen soon, either be them abandoning the Western Sector or being forced to return by Kambulas, while praying the Kambulas won't pressure them in their original territory.
This would be the logical outcome, Kambulas ousting PCM from the north, but I've been expecting the Kambulas to be dominant for more than half a year now, but nothing yet, so the thought the Kambulas, even as 4, ousting the PCM, sounds impossible, which again, is very weird, normally 2 lions wouldn't stand a chance against 4 who are almost 6yo and have ousted another dominant duo already.
You've got Khanya out in the North, the Kambula's in the North, Skorro and NK in the West, and the PCM running themselves ragged back and forth between those spaces. It's just a wild scene that is going to produce some fireworks. I'd be very surprised if it doesn't.
The problem of course is the poor confused Nkhuma girls who are just mating with whatever lion is in front of them that day.
05-24-2024, 11:16 PM( This post was last modified: 05-24-2024, 11:18 PM by Tr1x24 )
(05-24-2024, 10:34 PM)Vengeous Wrote: Slightly hot take but I don't actually see it as a complete shift in territory...
The PCMs have stopped patrolling the south of the western sector, which is where Savanna is. That's why Nkuhuma and Tumbela have been relatively unscathed and have been seen outside the Savanna lodge, and that's where the Othawas are too, because the PCMs have moved their territory to the northern half of the western sector.
Now the PCMs have occupied Elephant Plains and parts of Simbambili/Arathusa, which is in the southwestern part of the northern sector. The Kambula boys have been seen primarily in Djuma and Chitwa Chitwa and Nkorho recently.
So there is a small overlap there, but let's hope it's not too significant. The territory the PCMs patrol is almost akin to the whole of the western sector which they used to occupy. They are still seen in the west with the Ximunghwes (they were there yesterday) so it is doable to traverse this distance (so far). The complication comes if the Nkuhumas start pulling the PCMs far too east (which may happen within the next few weeks). But as of now I see a potential balance to be struck in which no one is too unhappy.
This is what I theorized initially, that PCMs might shift territory north along the fence (northern WS- northern Singita - Simbambili/EP) and would basically have territory of what 2 Ximhungwe females traversed for years.
Basically this:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is sustainable.
They might "ditch" Mhangenis tho (who prefer to hang in southern Singita and southern WS) and add NKs instead, keeping Ximhungwes in northern WS.
This territory is obivously harder to defend, as they previously had only 1 border to east and only Ndhzengas for the most part as territorial neighbours, while in this scenario, they could get pressured by 3 side:
*This image is copyright of its original author
But even this is far easier to defend, then for example, Ndhzengas territory, who need to defend from all sides.
(05-24-2024, 01:31 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: There simply has to be a showdown soon doesn't there? The Nkhuma's are the only mating eligible pride at the moment, and you have Skorro and NK messing around in the West, Khanya and the Kambula's messing around in the north (I am very curious still what happens when sister draws Estrus), and the PCM's trying to live in all the worlds. Sooner or later someone has to get caught right? The shame of it is, the Nkhuma's will catch the worst of this most likely.
I am also worried about what this means for the Othawa's and Ridge's subs.
Technically PCMs possibly abandoning part of the West is good for the Othawas as it’s likely Skorro and Nkuhuma could settle down - neither should be a threat to the lionesses if they pursue this current coalition. Obviously wouldn’t be ideal when they come into estrus and have a need to mate. As for Nkuhuma breakaways, they are in a very tough situation that I don’t think gets affected by any of the male lion dynamics in the area. Would love to see the female join the Othawas and the male go searching for his own partners too but as of right now them being alive and in good condition, especially given their age and their nomadic status, that’s enough.
The Kambula lioness has already been in estrus and it’s clear the males would willingly mate with her, she’s the one holding back. As for there being a showdown, I agree, someone coalition / male lion is gonna take a heavy beating at some point being in close proximity to so many others. I actually have a feeling BDMs might go back into Manyeleti as we on this topic.
I have to disagree with Skorro Jr and Nkuhuma being better for the Othawas. The girls won't mate with their father, it's one of the built-in/innate preventers of inbreeding. And they are certainly more of a danger to the Nkuhuma breakaways. The NB girl won't work with the Othawas, because even if she joined them, they'll come into eustrus way sooner than she will, and she'll just get chased off again, or killed.
Loonkito was rumored to have bred with his granddaughters, who he himself had helped create. For sure it is known that he bred with his daughters, as when they became pregnant he had been the only male over the pride for quite an extended time.
Males have been observed, countless times, mock mounting other males, in what we're told is bonding or an attempt to secure dominance. Would they not do that to females as well?
Talk about keeping it in the family. Jesus. So it can happen then.
Just searched for Loonkito, the Africa's oldest lion, who was speared to death by villagers in Kenya. What a sad end for a very old lion. Those villagers can go to hell.
I was with you up until the last part about the villagers going to hell.
The internet community is extremely quick to paint local communities in a bad light from the comfort of their homes but can not be bothered to consider the consequences of co-existing with dangerous wildlife on a day to day basis. Furthermore, with increasing urbanization and poverty on the continent, it's not like everyone can simply pack up and leave the wilderness. So, the next best thing is to continue with what has been putting food on the table for generations-farming- simply because there is no other viable alternative for them.
I love wildlife as much as the next person and human interference is something to be reduced as far as possible, but that doesn't mean we must demonize local communities for protecting their only livelihood by any means necessary. Especially in the context of East Africa where protected areas are working with local communities to mitigate human-wildlife conflict and so a lot of these killings often happen as a last resort.
All that anger is better reserved for rich trophy hunters who kill for pleasure.
You make very valid points, and yes I was quick to anger, having freshly watched that scene. Especially here in the UK, we have very little (and generally quite small) wildlife, and practically zero dangerous wildlife. We have one species of mildly venomous snake, and some pretty grumpy badgers. So I can't possibly know what it's like for these villagers, and thank you for calling me out. I will say one thing, which is that I've seen videos of tigers or leopards in India being in a village or trapped in a well, and the locals dealing with it without harming the animal. So there are other ways. Of course India isn't perfect. I'm sure most people here are familiar with the elephant seeking such revenge that it killed a woman and then turned up at her funeral to trample the corpse.
I know that one of the ways in which the wildlife/conservation organisations help the locals living near lions and other predators is by working with them to establish other means of income, so that the loss of the livestock isn't such a hit. Of course any government that is serious about wildlife conservation (and Kenya, where this happened, supposedly is) should be reimbursing the locals for any livestock taken. There's a village somewhere in the Himalayas where the farmers lose sheep to snow leopards. But they don't mind the big cats because the government reimburses them.
And yes, absolutely the anger I felt in that moment is nothing compared to what I save for trophy hunters. Another issue is that lion bone has replaced tiger bone in places like China, as it's a lot easier to get. Rich people pass it round as a party favour, and these people are the ones that motivate poachers. No rich people buying the 'products', no poachers killing the animals.
(05-24-2024, 01:31 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: There simply has to be a showdown soon doesn't there? The Nkhuma's are the only mating eligible pride at the moment, and you have Skorro and NK messing around in the West, Khanya and the Kambula's messing around in the north (I am very curious still what happens when sister draws Estrus), and the PCM's trying to live in all the worlds. Sooner or later someone has to get caught right? The shame of it is, the Nkhuma's will catch the worst of this most likely.
I am also worried about what this means for the Othawa's and Ridge's subs.
Technically PCMs possibly abandoning part of the West is good for the Othawas as it’s likely Skorro and Nkuhuma could settle down - neither should be a threat to the lionesses if they pursue this current coalition. Obviously wouldn’t be ideal when they come into estrus and have a need to mate. As for Nkuhuma breakaways, they are in a very tough situation that I don’t think gets affected by any of the male lion dynamics in the area. Would love to see the female join the Othawas and the male go searching for his own partners too but as of right now them being alive and in good condition, especially given their age and their nomadic status, that’s enough.
The Kambula lioness has already been in estrus and it’s clear the males would willingly mate with her, she’s the one holding back. As for there being a showdown, I agree, someone coalition / male lion is gonna take a heavy beating at some point being in close proximity to so many others. I actually have a feeling BDMs might go back into Manyeleti as we on this topic.
I have to disagree with Skorro Jr and Nkuhuma being better for the Othawas. The girls won't mate with their father, it's one of the built-in/innate preventers of inbreeding. And they are certainly more of a danger to the Nkuhuma breakaways. The NB girl won't work with the Othawas, because even if she joined them, they'll come into eustrus way sooner than she will, and she'll just get chased off again, or killed.
Loonkito was rumored to have bred with his granddaughters, who he himself had helped create. For sure it is known that he bred with his daughters, as when they became pregnant he had been the only male over the pride for quite an extended time.
Males have been observed, countless times, mock mounting other males, in what we're told is bonding or an attempt to secure dominance. Would they not do that to females as well?
Talk about keeping it in the family. Jesus. So it can happen then.
Just searched for Loonkito, the Africa's oldest lion, who was speared to death by villagers in Kenya. What a sad end for a very old lion. Those villagers can go to hell.
I was with you up until the last part about the villagers going to hell.
The internet community is extremely quick to paint local communities in a bad light from the comfort of their homes but can not be bothered to consider the consequences of co-existing with dangerous wildlife on a day to day basis. Furthermore, with increasing urbanization and poverty on the continent, it's not like everyone can simply pack up and leave the wilderness. So, the next best thing is to continue with what has been putting food on the table for generations-farming- simply because there is no other viable alternative for them.
I love wildlife as much as the next person and human interference is something to be reduced as far as possible, but that doesn't mean we must demonize local communities for protecting their only livelihood by any means necessary. Especially in the context of East Africa where protected areas are working with local communities to mitigate human-wildlife conflict and so a lot of these killings often happen as a last resort.
All that anger is better reserved for rich trophy hunters who kill for pleasure.
You make very valid points, and yes I was quick to anger, having freshly watched that scene. Especially here in the UK, we have very little (and generally quite small) wildlife, and practically zero dangerous wildlife. We have one species of mildly venomous snake, and some pretty grumpy badgers. So I can't possibly know what it's like for these villagers, and thank you for calling me out. I will say one thing, which is that I've seen videos of tigers or leopards in India being in a village or trapped in a well, and the locals dealing with it without harming the animal. So there are other ways. Of course India isn't perfect. I'm sure most people here are familiar with the elephant seeking such revenge that it killed a woman and then turned up at her funeral to trample the corpse.
I know that one of the ways in which the wildlife/conservation organisations help the locals living near lions and other predators is by working with them to establish other means of income, so that the loss of the livestock isn't such a hit. Of course any government that is serious about wildlife conservation (and Kenya, where this happened, supposedly is) should be reimbursing the locals for any livestock taken. There's a village somewhere in the Himalayas where the farmers lose sheep to snow leopards. But they don't mind the big cats because the government reimburses them.
And yes, absolutely the anger I felt in that moment is nothing compared to what I save for trophy hunters. Another issue is that lion bone has replaced tiger bone in places like China, as it's a lot easier to get. Rich people pass it round as a party favour, and these people are the ones that motivate poachers. No rich people buying the 'products', no poachers killing the animals.
I agree that there are safer ways to deal with wildlife and the case you brought up of local villagers safely trapping and relocating tigers and leopards proves that local people have far more respect for nature than the media gives them credit for. However, it all boils down to government providing the means of safely dealing with said animals (wildlife vets, tranquilizer darts, etc.) and how serious that government is in compensating for the costs of co-existing with dangerous wildlife.
At the end of the day, the locals who have called these spaces home for decades, if not centuries, have just as much right to be in those spaces as any other living being and that is a hill I will die on. The trick is to balance biodiversity conservation with social upliftment. Let us be cognizant of the fact that we are speaking from positions of privilege when commenting on said communities and let us exercise some empathy and understanding when doing so.
Having said all that, thank you for your thoughtful response. Discourse of this nature is why I joined WildFact in the first place.
(05-24-2024, 01:31 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: There simply has to be a showdown soon doesn't there? The Nkhuma's are the only mating eligible pride at the moment, and you have Skorro and NK messing around in the West, Khanya and the Kambula's messing around in the north (I am very curious still what happens when sister draws Estrus), and the PCM's trying to live in all the worlds. Sooner or later someone has to get caught right? The shame of it is, the Nkhuma's will catch the worst of this most likely.
I am also worried about what this means for the Othawa's and Ridge's subs.
Technically PCMs possibly abandoning part of the West is good for the Othawas as it’s likely Skorro and Nkuhuma could settle down - neither should be a threat to the lionesses if they pursue this current coalition. Obviously wouldn’t be ideal when they come into estrus and have a need to mate. As for Nkuhuma breakaways, they are in a very tough situation that I don’t think gets affected by any of the male lion dynamics in the area. Would love to see the female join the Othawas and the male go searching for his own partners too but as of right now them being alive and in good condition, especially given their age and their nomadic status, that’s enough.
The Kambula lioness has already been in estrus and it’s clear the males would willingly mate with her, she’s the one holding back. As for there being a showdown, I agree, someone coalition / male lion is gonna take a heavy beating at some point being in close proximity to so many others. I actually have a feeling BDMs might go back into Manyeleti as we on this topic.
I have to disagree with Skorro Jr and Nkuhuma being better for the Othawas. The girls won't mate with their father, it's one of the built-in/innate preventers of inbreeding. And they are certainly more of a danger to the Nkuhuma breakaways. The NB girl won't work with the Othawas, because even if she joined them, they'll come into eustrus way sooner than she will, and she'll just get chased off again, or killed.
Loonkito was rumored to have bred with his granddaughters, who he himself had helped create. For sure it is known that he bred with his daughters, as when they became pregnant he had been the only male over the pride for quite an extended time.
Males have been observed, countless times, mock mounting other males, in what we're told is bonding or an attempt to secure dominance. Would they not do that to females as well?
Talk about keeping it in the family. Jesus. So it can happen then.
Just searched for Loonkito, the Africa's oldest lion, who was speared to death by villagers in Kenya. What a sad end for a very old lion. Those villagers can go to hell.
I was with you up until the last part about the villagers going to hell.
The internet community is extremely quick to paint local communities in a bad light from the comfort of their homes but can not be bothered to consider the consequences of co-existing with dangerous wildlife on a day to day basis. Furthermore, with increasing urbanization and poverty on the continent, it's not like everyone can simply pack up and leave the wilderness. So, the next best thing is to continue with what has been putting food on the table for generations-farming- simply because there is no other viable alternative for them.
I love wildlife as much as the next person and human interference is something to be reduced as far as possible, but that doesn't mean we must demonize local communities for protecting their only livelihood by any means necessary. Especially in the context of East Africa where protected areas are working with local communities to mitigate human-wildlife conflict and so a lot of these killings often happen as a last resort.
All that anger is better reserved for rich trophy hunters who kill for pleasure.
You make very valid points, and yes I was quick to anger, having freshly watched that scene. Especially here in the UK, we have very little (and generally quite small) wildlife, and practically zero dangerous wildlife. We have one species of mildly venomous snake, and some pretty grumpy badgers. So I can't possibly know what it's like for these villagers, and thank you for calling me out. I will say one thing, which is that I've seen videos of tigers or leopards in India being in a village or trapped in a well, and the locals dealing with it without harming the animal. So there are other ways. Of course India isn't perfect. I'm sure most people here are familiar with the elephant seeking such revenge that it killed a woman and then turned up at her funeral to trample the corpse.
I know that one of the ways in which the wildlife/conservation organisations help the locals living near lions and other predators is by working with them to establish other means of income, so that the loss of the livestock isn't such a hit. Of course any government that is serious about wildlife conservation (and Kenya, where this happened, supposedly is) should be reimbursing the locals for any livestock taken. There's a village somewhere in the Himalayas where the farmers lose sheep to snow leopards. But they don't mind the big cats because the government reimburses them.
And yes, absolutely the anger I felt in that moment is nothing compared to what I save for trophy hunters. Another issue is that lion bone has replaced tiger bone in places like China, as it's a lot easier to get. Rich people pass it round as a party favour, and these people are the ones that motivate poachers. No rich people buying the 'products', no poachers killing the animals.
I agree that there are safer ways to deal with wildlife and the case you brought up of local villagers safely trapping and relocating tigers and leopards proves that local people have far more respect for nature than the media gives them credit for. However, it all boils down to government providing the means of safely dealing with said animals (wildlife vets, tranquilizer darts, etc.) and how serious that government is in compensating for the costs of co-existing with dangerous wildlife.
At the end of the day, the locals who have called these spaces home for decades, if not centuries, have just as much right to be in those spaces as any other living being and that is a hill I will die on. The trick is to balance biodiversity conservation with social upliftment. Let us be cognizant of the fact that we are speaking from positions of privilege when commenting on said communities and let us exercise some empathy and understanding when doing so.
Having said all that, thank you for your thoughtful response. Discourse of this nature is why I joined WildFact in the first place.
And, we are glad to have you as well! Cheers, my friend!
