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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
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 (03-30-2015, 11:31 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(03-30-2015, 09:57 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: I don't even think it matters what prey the other preys on, just look at lions and leopards or Tigers and leopards. I don't think it matters, there is a certain "respect" but at the end of the day, its all about territory. Gabbar has had numerous fights with Katezari and Saturn, he is well aware of who they are, the territory they hold and what he has yet it has never stopped him or them from engaging eachother over the years. The only one in Tadoba that is unchallenged is Waghdoh and for good reason. He is the biggest and baddest of them all. That is the only "respect" earned in the wild. Munna has been a ruler in Kahna for many years but he has battled Naak Kata over and over again, red eye, patewalla and others. The same will be said for Lion v Tiger encounter IMO, I think that is the type of relationship you can expect with lions. To put it bluntly, you're only as "respected" as your last fight. There will always be challengers looking for the prime territory and if we load up these territories with not only tigers, but lions as well, That will only increase the conflict, its seems like common sense to me. Same amount of land, more predators = more conflict. The only real example we can go off of is the Attempted release of African lions in India and you read how tigers reacted to that. But on the flip side, maybe after 100s-1000s of years of evolving together they could work a balance out. But that remains to be seen.  (03-31-2015, 12:35 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: I don't think it matters, there is a certain "respect" but at the end of the day, its all about territory. Gabbar has had numerous fights with Katezari and Saturn, he is well aware of who they are, the territory they hold and what he has yet it has never stopped him or them from engaging eachother over the years. The only one in Tadoba that is unchallenged is Waghdoh and for good reason. He is the biggest and baddest of them all. That is the only "respect" earned in the wild. Munna has been a ruler in Kahna for many years but he has battled Naak Kata over and over again, red eye, patewalla and others. The same will be said for Lion v Tiger encounter IMO, I think that is the type of relationship you can expect with lions. To put it bluntly, you're only as "respected" as your last fight. There will always be challengers looking for the prime territory and if we load up these territories with not only tigers, but lions as well, That will only increase the conflict, its seems like common sense to me. But if these tigers have a fight, the result is some kind of draw (yes, the fights are repeated, the opponents keep testing each other) and the tigers basically keep their territories. But tiger vs. lion? Would they (in their first encounter) accept draw as a (temporary) result? Or would such a fight (their first fight) end with death of one of the combatants or his submission and subsequent escape? Tigers have some laws among them...but would they accept a lion as a subject of such a law? I have different scenario than you: if a tiger finds that there is some new big felid in the neighborhood, he would carefully watch this strange felid for some time. And then he would attack (ambush) the lion. It would not be any ritualized combat, but deadmatch with full brutality. Because lions would represent a danger to whole tiger species so I think that tiger would instinctively try to kill the lion by all means (ofc he would attack the lion only in case he would feel strong enought to kill such an opponent). Another point is that I think that lions would be more successful than tigers in habitat that suits both of them. Yes, male bengal tigers are 220kg on average while male asiatic lions are around 160 kg on average (and my opinion on the question who wins at same size is known...for those who dont know me - Im one of so called "tiger fans"), but lion coalition would be the decisive advantage...I think... 
If a male tiger is confronted by a pride of lions with one big male, and the two go at it, would the lioness' stay back and observe, or would they pitch in and help their "lord and master"?
(03-31-2015, 01:57 AM)'brotherbear' Wrote: If a male tiger is confronted by a pride of lions with one big male, and the two go at it, would the lioness' stay back and observe, or would they pitch in and help their "lord and master"? I would say that they would help the lion...they have absolutely no reason to watch the fight and wait for the winner. In a fight between lions the victorious lion would mate with lioness. In a fight between tiger and lion, victorious tiger could (and Id say that he probably would) kill the lioness.
I disagree witht the statement that the Tiger would "ambush or watch"
That is not what a tiger does from the fights i have seen, it makes its presence known. It roars, scent marks and confronts. When a Tiger fights, it never "ambushes" they meet face to face, size each other up then they fight. I have seen the same ritual from lions, so I assume the "rules of engagement" are the same. Im not sure what you mean by "tigers have law amongst them" Gabbar is badly injured, there is no law there. If Katezari could of killed him or really wanted to commit to it, Im sure he could of. I think it comes down to the combatants, if a fighter chooses to win or die, there isn't much of an option for the other combatant. Either kill or be killed. Pride size in Gir Lions is very small, we are talking 2-3 females and usually 1-2 males. If conflict arouse the meeting would most likely be a battle between 2-3 individuals. The terrain doesn't support a large pride, the smaller herds and dense Forest don't allow it. We are not speaking of the Gir terrain any more, we are speaking of Ranth, Corbett, Bandipur, Dudwa etc. We are talking about terrain that tigers have evolved to for 100s or 1000s of years. They are built for it, not lions. They would have the evolutionary advantage imo. Just like a lion will have the evolutionary advantage in africa. Obviously a coalition of 3 or more males would be a serious threat but that is extremely rare for Gir Lions. They are usually one male or two, and they are very rarely seen with females. Usually only to mate, they are more of a loaner than their African Cousins. What nobody seems to be talking about is this, what happens to Dhole, Wolf, Jackal and Hyenna. How can they hope to compete against Leopard, Tiger and Lion now? Im also curious, If the Asiatic Lion truly walked India with the tiger, why is there really no account of them being found in the same location, throughout history? Of all the hunting images and stories we have, not a single one has a Lion and Tiger hunted from the same location, correct? I think that is the most tell tell sign that these two cats don't belong in the same area. 
I like the arguments between you two and I agree for the most part, however.. I think this entire "relocation" thing is nothing short of a fantasy. Tigers and Lions will never co-exist and if an intruding species wants to call the dense forests of India their home, be sure that you'll be meeting the likes of Wagdoh, Raja, Munna, Jobhi, Jai etc etc.. It's just not possible, realistically speaking..ofcourse.
(03-31-2015, 02:24 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: I disagree witht the statement that the Tiger would "ambush or watch" For instance the behaviour of tigers in (before) combat is for me some kind of law. Lions have similar rituals among themselves. But tigers vs lions - different species. Lion would be unknown for tiger, so tiger (as intelligent and cautious cat) would carefully watch this "strange" felid first. Gabbar lost, but he is alive. Katezari was satisfied with Gabbars submission and probably didnt want to risk a deadmatch (risk of serious injury in such a fight) . But I think that tigers would be more motivated to enter a deadmatch even with lion of comparable strenght, because lion is different species so I think that this would be confrontation of different level. You said "If Katezari could of killed him or really wanted to commit to it, Im sure he could of." And I think that tiger (or lion) would really, really want to kill the opponent. "If conflict arouse the meeting would most likely be a battle between 2-3 individuals." - I think that 2 lions would have won against 1 tiger. (ofc Im not talking about 2 subadult females against Wagdoh) You said "We are not speaking of the Gir terrain any more, we are speaking of Ranth, Corbett, Bandipur, Dudwa etc. We are talking about terrain that tigers have evolved to for 100s or 1000s of years. They are built for it, not lions." I said: "lions would be more successful than tigers in habitat that suits both of them"
I said: "lions would be more successful than tigers in habitat that suits both of them"
I know, but we are speaking of a place where lions would run into conflict with tigers. Since the only places in india where this could happen are tiger habitat, that is the only place they would encounter each other. A tiger will have the advantage any where in India where tigers are common, its their terrain. "Gabbar lost, but he is alive. Katezari was satisfied with Gabbars submission and probably didnt want to risk a deadmatch (risk of serious injury in such a fight) . But I think that tigers would be more motivated to enter a deadmatch even with lion of comparable strength, because lion is different species so I think that this would be confrontation of different level." Gabbar can easily die from infection, injury etc. This remains to be seen, the fights he has are very serious. In fact, any fight with a big cat is serious. Death can come from a throat bite but it can also come from a injured dew claw. The wild doesn't care, if you can't hunt you will die. "If conflict arouse the meeting would most likely be a battle between 2-3 individuals." - I think that 2 lions would have won against 1 tiger. (ofc Im not talking about 2 subadult females against Wagdoh) Maybe Two males defeat a single male tiger, maybe not. I have seen multiple males loose to single prime territory holding males in Tigers and Lions. Gir Males usually are by themselves so and even if a coalition of a couple of males form, that doesn't mean they are together all the time. Males like to separate and search on their own then come together other times.
What about Rajastan? Do you think that Ranthambore is dense forest?
I still think that tiger vs lion fight would be more brutal - the victorious felid would like to be sure that the opponent dies. But it´s just speculation, we´ll never know.  (03-28-2015, 02:58 PM)'Roflcopters' Wrote:(03-28-2015, 03:54 AM)'Krillow' Wrote: I think Asian lions would thrive throughout India. Their main threat being humans, and crossing into civilization. I think tigers, and lions can coexist no problem. Of course occasional conflicts may arrise. That's the case with every animals though. Sloth bears, rhinos, elephants, tigers. Natural conflicts occur. Historically tigers, and lions coexisted in India, the way it should be. If not for humans, and poaching. And I do think that tigers, and lions would stay our of each others way for the most part. Tigers wouldn't pose a risk to relocating the lions, but like with all animals a rare conflict may happen. I haven't read it anywhere yet, so i'm gonna express my thougts and idea. Not every tiger reserve is blessed with a healty population of tigers, it would make sense, to analyze some of those areas and consider them as a potential relocating place for lions. To become concrete, i think the best option would be Sariska. Yes, it sounds strange, but after thinking about the pro's and con's, the only points which speaks against this idea are the facts, that it is one of the first tiger reserves (and therefore a matter of "pride") and (of course) political issues. The latter is anyway a problem which can't be solved quickly (especially now because of Prime M. Modi). But the tiger - lion conflict, could be avoided in a noble way. Passing Sariska to lions, while in the same time exchanging Kuno completely to tigers would be a fair deal: - Lions would find a new home, with a healty prey base and a territory big enough to expand (for the beginning) - Tigers could start occupiyng Kuno Palpur in bigger numbers (if the population in Ranthambore should top the limit of it's optimum size) and use it frequently as corridor to Ranthambore. With approximately 1200 km² Kuno offers enough space to roam around for dozen's of tigers. Combined with the ca 400 km² of Ranthambore, it really could be a future place for a healthy tiger population. Big places with corridors to expand is something, what tigers obviously need , the Kuno - Ranthambore complex could be one of it in the long run in my opinion. I mean, tigers were whiped out of Sarisa around 10 years ago, how many are there at the moment after relocation? 4-5? They can be captured and moved to Kuno. Sariska had his chance as tiger reserve, it is doubfull, that it will ever again become a place for a healthy tiger population and the park staff + local government will still be remembered as those, who let the tigers getting poached. If justified or not, is another question. "Sariska Lion's Sanctuary" could bring some new energy, motivation and consistency. It can be called a new chance, therefore. And "Kuno Tiger Reserve" sounds anway much better [img]images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Just my thought's, i know it may sound's weird after the first read, but what do you guys think about it honestly, after the first round of laughing?[img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img] Brehm 
@"Brehmji", I am not sure about this idea. Since Lion and Tiger need different type of habitat to survive but I think a scientific research can be made to determine places that can help Asiatic lion to relocate other place in India.
But major problem in India is Politics. You might have notice that despite of relocation program in kuno Mr Modi (one of the most popular Politician in India) is not ready to give lions to the state in which his own party govt is running. (06-07-2015, 07:55 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: @"Brehmji", I am not sure about this idea. Since Lion and Tiger need different type of habitat to survive but I think a scientific research can be made to determine places that can help Asiatic lion to relocate other place in India. To add a little more, Sariska is a tiger habitat, it was before and it plans to again with the trans location of ranth tigers, Unfrortunately no successful breeding has occured as of yet, but the translocation was very irresponsible in the choice of tigers. They didn't genetically check the tigers, could be siblings and choosing a female that had never had a litter and males where their ages are unknown was not correct IMO. But that being said, its a tiger reserve and it should be again, humans putting lions there because we want to is incorrect, evolution didn't dictate lions being there so us moving them there is going agianst nature. When we think we know better than nature, it usually costs us. 
great debate guy's.
I personaly don't like the Idea of lions and tigers living together today with so little space, there would be huge problems if one cat where the victorious and the totaly dominant spicies. lions and tigers are living very different lives, but physical they are very similar and no cat can really escape the other cat they are both cat's that's used to be the dominant unlike leopards, they are not ment to be on guard from other carnivores they both let's their pressence known. MHO is that I think one on one a bengal tiger would defeat a lone asiatic lion, but again two male lions would take any tiger. so it depends on how connected male lions would be if they where moved to a place with more prey and also tigers. it also depends on how the situation is, I think if there was a male lion with cubs and his lionesses and a tiger made an apparence, he would charge the tiger without hesitating, and I think (almost guarantee) the lionesses would follow him. one on one: the tiger wins. two on one: lions win. so the senario can go either way. but I think if there comes lions into Ranthambore it could get really dramatic, and both spicies should be preserved not wipe eachoter out. the biggest problem is for lionesses and tigresses with cubs. in the places where they coexisted (India), they avoided each other based on they own ecology, as they are adapted to two COMPLETELY different habitats, tigers to the close-forest habitat and lions to the open-savanna habitat (Sunquist, 1981). A lion - tiger fight/conflict has no blueprint it can go either way: although I love both species it's important to remember they are just animals ofcourse incredable in their own way both of them, but they are no super animal, and that's why I like this thread and site, there is usually no nonsense from fan boy's, posting just bullsh@t. lions and tigers are probably the most amazing carnivores we have! honest!!!! but also the most overrated animals on the planet alongside gorillas, and that's just sad....
During the long-lasting 'lion vs tiger war' over on the now dead AVA site, no historic records were found of the two biggest of the big cats having problems with each other in the wild; no recorded confrontations. Unless they are tightly confined into too small of a protected land, they should have little trouble with each other. IMO.
(06-08-2015, 05:27 AM)'brotherbear' Wrote: During the long-lasting 'lion vs tiger war' over on the now dead AVA site, no historic records were found of the two biggest of the big cats having problemsyes I agree, but beeing that India has more than a billion people there is problems regarding space, Kuno can't Imo hold the two biggest cat's they would most likely wipe one another out, there is even a possibility that lions can reach Ranthambore I've read, that Imo would be a blood bath. So I can't see those cat's co exist today sadly, it would be fantastic don't you think? going on safari and see 3 out of 4 big cat's in one place, but two seems to be the limit now. I dread to see a dead lion/tiger in the jawas of a lion/tiger. that's what's gonna happen I'm afraid. |
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