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Poll: Do you support lion translocation from Gir to Kuno Palpur?
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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project

United States chaos Offline
wildlife enthusiast
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#76
( This post was last modified: 12-12-2014, 06:34 AM by chaos )

~~History shows before they were slaughtered to near extinction, they thrived in that environ. Genetics are irrelevant. " Go on, lets see this PROOF.

Cut the BS Pockets. Thats common knowledge to any and all familiar with big cats. They were widespread through Europe and Asia.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion













~~Tigerluver and Gaute both showed great info on the true DNA of a "Asiatic Lion" and gaute specifically approved of Valmik and Packers ideas. Which of course, back what I am saying.

Dna is completely irrelevant in this. As usual, you're lost and all over the place, clueless. You have a dubious theory at best, which is easily disputed with common sense. Stop wasting my time.


 
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United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******
#77

Ok, so no data to back anything you claim.
Got it.
Lets move on
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United States Siegfried Offline
Wildanimal Enthusiast
***
#78
( This post was last modified: 12-12-2014, 05:48 AM by Siegfried )

I am not exactly sure what you two keep arguing about. 

Is it whether or not Panthera leo persica is native to India? 

Earlier in this thread I said that species origination is not necessarily the same as species nativity.  There is naturally occurring migration. 

It could be argued that jaguars are not native to South America being that the ancestors of modern jaguars came down from North America to their current range.  Previous to that, their ancestors crossed the Bering land bridge which connected Asia to North America.   

Or, are you guys arguing the success of the asiatic lion as a subspecies?  If you look at their historical range compared to what it is now, you certainly wouldn't be wrong to say that they are not doing so great.

However, based on the recent growth of the population and its expansion to areas outside of the Gir Sanctuary, the subspecies would be considered to be doing very well... for the time being that is... despite the genetic bottleneck. 

Is there a disagreement as to whether or not there is enough genetic dissimilarity between the Asian population and their cousins in Africa to constitute their status as a subspecies? 

Or is it that you are just arguing???
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United States chaos Offline
wildlife enthusiast
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#79
( This post was last modified: 12-12-2014, 06:37 AM by chaos )

(12-12-2014, 05:46 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: I am not exactly sure what you two keep arguing about. 

Is it whether or not Panthera leo persica is native to India? 

Earlier in this thread I said that species origination is not necessarily the same as species nativity.  There is naturally occurring migration. 

It could be argued that jaguars are not native to South America being that the ancestors of modern jaguars came down from North America to their current range.  Previous to that, their ancestors crossed the Bering land bridge which connected Asia to North America.   

Or, are you guys arguing the success of the asiatic lion as a subspecies?  If you look at their historical range compared to what it is now, you certainly wouldn't be wrong to say that they are not doing so great.

However, based on the recent growth of the population and its expansion to areas outside of the Gir Sanctuary, the subspecies would be considered to be doing very well... for the time being that is... despite the genetic bottleneck. 

Is there a disagreement as to whether or not there is enough genetic dissimilarity between the Asian population and their cousins in Africa to constitute their status as a subspecies? 

Or is it that you are just arguing???

 


~~Is it whether or not Panthera leo persica is native to India?

No. Its the claim he made that lions didn't adapt as well to the Indian terrain as did tigers.
Overhunting and inbreeding are the main culprits in the status of todays Indian lion.
See post #8 and subsequent posts to bring into focus
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#80
( This post was last modified: 12-12-2014, 10:01 AM by GuateGojira )

Although there is doubt about if the lions were native from India, we can't doubt that lions found they best place in Gir. This area never had tigers, it is very dry and had a good prey base until the arise of men. However, is also interesting that there is not a single lion fossil in Gir, just a few "Panthera sp." which are no larger than a large leopard.

Lions in Gir, despite they low large-prey base and high inbreed, is practically thriving at 2014, there are simple too many lions!!! The new mentality of the Government in Gujarat have created an excellent place for lions, they actually protect them and althoug it is not perfect, it have showed good results. When the first studies with radiocollared lions in India began, they showed that almost half of they diet was based in feral cattle and domestic buffalo. Now, with good programs, the wild prey base is high and lions now mostly eat wild animals, not cattle.

Under these circumstances, lions in Gir are perfectly adapted and like some alien species (if they are), they are now capable of create a sustained population with an stable level, in the absence of natural competitors. The only problem here is the low genetic variation and the possibility of a epidemic that can kill the entire population.
 
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
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#81
( This post was last modified: 12-12-2014, 04:09 PM by Amnon242 )

(12-09-2014, 11:37 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(12-09-2014, 08:20 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
Quote:Thats cute coming from you two.
So please clarify, where exactly am I wrong?

Do me a favor, provide factual evidence not opinion. 
Just once
 
 

For example you wrote that asiatic lions are not as successful as other lions. That´s nonsense.* (fixed it for you)

LOL


 

 



After everything Gaute and Tigerluver just posted about Indian lions being generally the same sub species as other lions. This is what you focus on?

Like I have stated, since they are the same animal, yet they are weaker in every aspect that makes a lion, it is absolutely possible to consider them less successful or less adapted. Its a very plausible hypothesis and is backed by all of the evidence posted.

Also, how come you keep using Sumatran tigers even though its already been discussed that they are a completely different sub species, Not like a the Asiatic lion compared to the N. African lion.

Thank you so much, @Gaute and @tigerluver, both explanations are very informative and info provided is much appreciated.
 

Oh My God.


 
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
Tiger Enthusiast
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#82
( This post was last modified: 12-12-2014, 04:11 PM by Amnon242 )

(12-11-2014, 10:36 PM)'chaos' Wrote: ...As usual, you're lost and all over the place, clueless. You have a dubious theory at best, which is easily disputed with common sense. Stop wasting my time.
 
 

Amen to that!



 
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
Tiger Enthusiast
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#83
( This post was last modified: 12-12-2014, 05:01 PM by Amnon242 )

(12-12-2014, 05:46 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Or, are you guys arguing the success of the asiatic lion as a subspecies?  If you look at their historical range compared to what it is now, you certainly wouldn't be wrong to say that they are not doing so great.
 


Yes, the success of asiatic lions is the issue. Well, asiatic lions are exinct in almost all asia, but this was caused by men. Tigers are also not doing so great...the guilt lies on men again...
 
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United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
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#84

And once again, Never said they are not adapted to gir. 
They are not as adapted. They are smaller, smaller manes, smaller prides. They are purely a weaker version of their relatives in Africa. Since of course, they are the same sub species. 

While sharing the same prey  base as tigers, they still don't reach their prime specifications while Tigers, whether living in Ranthabhore(very similiar prey base to Gir) or Kahna, Tigers are usually still able to reach their maximum sizes. 
Kaziranga may have the largest tigers, but until we see measurements, we won't know for sure. 
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United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
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#85

(12-12-2014, 04:10 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(12-11-2014, 10:36 PM)'chaos' Wrote: ...As usual, you're lost and all over the place, clueless. You have a dubious theory at best, which is easily disputed with common sense. Stop wasting my time.
 


 

Amen to that!



 


 


Let me know when you two use common sense. That will be a glorious day.
 

 
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United States chaos Offline
wildlife enthusiast
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#86

Seems your view on this topic has little to no support and I'm being kind. "Little" already left town.  
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United States Siegfried Offline
Wildanimal Enthusiast
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#87

While there is some disagreement regarding the number of African subspecies of lion there are, Panthera leo persica is generally accepted as a definite distinct subspecies.

In fact, Asiatic and African lions are so genetically different that this occurred.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4101049.stm







 
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United States Siegfried Offline
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#88

Tigers on the other hand, seem to be able to breed between subspecies without the same type of resulting health problems.  Perhaps this indicates LESS genetic differences between the subspeciation of Panthera tigris than there are between Asiatic and African lion populations.
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United States tigerluver Offline
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#89

A caveat I find with the alleged weak hybrids of P.l. persica and the African lion is that as the Asiatic is genetically identical to the Barbary lions, why have alleged Barbary hybrids not shown problems?

No more arguing and attacking personalities, please. Only debate ideas respectfully. I'll delete any future posts that deviate toward posters.
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Netherlands peter Offline
Expert & Researcher
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Moderators
#90
( This post was last modified: 12-13-2014, 08:33 AM by peter )

I don't know about Sanjay, Guate and Apollo, but I think I know the answer to the last sentence in your post, Tigerluver. You have my permission to delete anything deviating towards posters right away and don't omit anything posted in the recent past.

To debate is to respect first and foremost. No respect is no debate is no post.
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