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Poll: Do you support lion translocation from Gir to Kuno Palpur?
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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project

India sanjay Offline
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Hello @teresek , Welcome to forum, We can't sure if relocating lions else where will be successful until they have done in past, There is lot of other concern before shifting lion from one place to other, Though I agree that India must try to relocate Lions on some other part of world, so that they can diverse the population and help them to grow as species
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Greece teresek Offline
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(01-30-2015, 11:33 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: Hello @teresek , Welcome to forum, We can't sure if relocating lions else where will be successful until they have done in past, There is lot of other concern before shifting lion from one place to other, Though I agree that India must try to relocate Lions on some other part of world, so that they can diverse the population and help them to grow as species


 


Hello sanjay, i salute all the efforts that India has done for the asiatic lions but a plan b must be on the plans. In gir forest from what i know lions are highly overpopulated. It isn't such a big deal to relocate 8-10 lions on some other part of the world. If they really care about these lions this is the way to go.

 
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-30-2015, 08:04 PM by Amnon242 )

I´d say that some central asian states like Turkmenistan or Uzbekistan would be quite good for relocation...but the problem is that lions never lived there...as far as I know.


 
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-31-2015, 12:34 AM by Pckts )

(01-30-2015, 03:18 AM)'teresek' Wrote:
(12-02-2014, 09:05 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(12-02-2014, 09:03 PM)'chaos' Wrote: Unfortunately, middle east = eternal instability. What a shame it would be to lose relocated wildlife
to human conflict.



 

You are right :-( Turkey and Iran are quite safe right now, but no one knows what will be in 5 years (especially in the case of Iran). Perhaps Turkmenistan could be propriate home for lions but I´m not sure whether lions ever lived there...I think they didn´t...

Lions lived also in Greece about 2500 years ago...but reintroduction of lions into Greece is beyond my imagination :-)



 

Greece is better option than the other countries. It's a european country and is part of the european union. Greece has strict laws about wild animals. Τhe creation of a new 1000km2 National Park with fences all around somewhere in thessaly would be a nice reintroduction of asiatic lion.

Don't forget that not long ago it was its home. But from what i'am seeing i don't think India ever going to relocate lions in other countries even if they're going to extinct. They don't want to lose the "only in India" thing i suppose which is a bit idiotic nowadays.

 

 

 
When I was in Delos (birth place of apollo, its a greek island) they have Lion statues used for protection of the temple. Interesting enough they don't look anything like a lion you would expect and they also use falic symbols all over the place. Even chickens with their heads cut off and enlogated necks, its a very interesting place.

Here is a image of the "lions" they use their

*This image is copyright of its original author




 
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United States Pckts Offline
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*This image is copyright of its original author

This is the "mall" they would use to sell slaves, goods, trade and have shows. Sorry to derail the topic, just thought I would share.
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United States Pckts Offline
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(01-31-2015, 12:33 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(01-30-2015, 03:18 AM)'teresek' Wrote:
(12-02-2014, 09:05 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(12-02-2014, 09:03 PM)'chaos' Wrote: Unfortunately, middle east = eternal instability. What a shame it would be to lose relocated wildlife
to human conflict.




 

You are right :-( Turkey and Iran are quite safe right now, but no one knows what will be in 5 years (especially in the case of Iran). Perhaps Turkmenistan could be propriate home for lions but I´m not sure whether lions ever lived there...I think they didn´t...

Lions lived also in Greece about 2500 years ago...but reintroduction of lions into Greece is beyond my imagination :-)




 

Greece is better option than the other countries. It's a european country and is part of the european union. Greece has strict laws about wild animals. Τhe creation of a new 1000km2 National Park with fences all around somewhere in thessaly would be a nice reintroduction of asiatic lion.

Don't forget that not long ago it was its home. But from what i'am seeing i don't think India ever going to relocate lions in other countries even if they're going to extinct. They don't want to lose the "only in India" thing i suppose which is a bit idiotic nowadays.

 

 


 
When I was in Delos (birth place of apollo, its a greek island) they have Lion statues used for protection of the temple. Interesting enough they don't look anything like a lion you would expect and they also use falic symbols all over the place. Even chickens with their heads cut off and enlogated necks, its a very interesting place.

Here is a image of the "lions" they use their

*This image is copyright of its original author




 

 


If the Gir Lion is truly a "asiatic lion" then the only reasonable place to try and reintroduce it would be in Asia, IMO.
Its not that they don't have areas to reintroduce the lion, its the horrible political non sense that is getting in the way. They have been trying to shift the growing population forever but have ran into bumps every step of the way.
 
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Greece teresek Offline
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The names "Asiatic lion", "Indian lion" or "Persian lion" were created in our days because if you look back in history most of the time these lions were found in specific asian areas. Plus they live only in India today!

One must remember that in the early second century A.D. Panthera Leo Persica aka asiatic lion today was extinct in Greece.
In an alternate history where this lion would have survived only in Greece i guess the name today would be panthera leo grecica and would be widely known as greek lion.
It's funny how a simple event can eventually give genesis to a series of facts and words! 

 

 
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Greece teresek Offline
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Quote:
Quote: 
When I was in Delos (birth place of apollo, its a greek island) they have Lion statues used for protection of the temple. Interesting enough they don't look anything like a lion you would expect and they also use falic symbols all over the place. Even chickens with their heads cut off and enlogated necks, its a very interesting place.

Here is a image of the "lions" they use their

*This image is copyright of its original author




 
 



@Pckts The lion of amphipolis.
It's a 4th century BC tomb sculpture in northern Greece.
The lion has a height of more than 4 meters in its main body.



*This image is copyright of its original author



 

 

 
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-31-2015, 11:09 AM by GuateGojira )

Some time ago, a poster ask me where will be good places to relocate Asian lions. I made a little analysis and at the end, Greece was not an appropriated place right now.

The reasons were that there is not too much space (lions need large territories), there is no large prey and if they are, there is in very small densities. Finally, the economic situation of Greece is very bad and I doubt that many people will be happy with wild lions over there. Western people think that they love wild animals, but when those animals are they neighbors, there is another story (check the people in USA when they knew that grey wolves will be introduced in Yellowstone, it was a mess).

Maybe, if Greece would have large wild areas with relative high large-prey levels, then it will be a good option, but for the moment, I doubt that.

Middle east is out of the question, that place is a time bomb and the last thing they need is a large predator trying to survive in such a hostile place.

The only other place, with relative good options is the Barbary region, from Morocco to Algeria, where there are still areas for the reintroduction, but many of those places only reproduce the same case of Greece. Morocco seems to be the only plausible area, and taking in count that the "Indian" lions are the only "true" Barbary lions still alive, this choise is a hundred times better than those Zoo lions that are half Barbary and half any other lion (including the Rabat Zoo [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]).

I will love to see lions in Greece again, just to watch such a magnificent animal that give origin to many legends, like the sphinx and the lion of Nemea, for example. Lions are/were an important part of Greece, but humans rip apart from it, very very sad. [img]images/smilies/sad.gif[/img]
 
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-31-2015, 01:07 PM by peter )

ASIAN LIONS THEN AND NOW

Over the years, I've read many posts about Asian lions. It seems many think lions were unknown in Asia in the past. Many also think African lions were introduced to India by local rulers. I don't agree.  

In AVA (in the tiger thread), I posted more than once on a book written by J.F. Brandt ('Untersuchungen über die Verbreituing des Tigers und seine Beziehungen zur Menschheit', St. Petersburg, 1856). For his book, Brandt read just about anything written on the two big cats in Asia. To keep it short: there's no question whatsoever that lions had been known in Asia Minor, parts of India and the region north-west of India (up to north-east of Kabul in Afghanistan) for a long time.


WHERE LIONS AND TIGERS MET
 

Asia Minor (apart from parts of Central India) probably was the only place where tigers and lions lived in close proximity for a long time. I'm referring to the region just south of Georgia all the way down to the deserts to the south. Same for the region between Georgia and the Indus River to the east. Although both big cats lived in close proximity, Brandt didn't find a shred of evidence of interaction anywhere. Lions occupied open terrain and tigers (as well as bears) preferred elevated and forested parts of the same region.

Tigers living in Asia Minor belonged to Panthera tigris virgata. In most books and reports, they were described as somewhat smaller and darker (the stripes often were brownish) than those living in the northern part (the Caspian and the region east and north-east of the Caspian). They were also described as very wild at heart. Not suited for captivity. Those out for cubs usually had a rough time when they had found and taken cubs. There are many stories about tigresses entering villages and attacking villagers. The bond between tigresses and their cubs was well known, if not legendary.


INDIAN LIONS

It could be some local Indian rulers imported African lions at some stage and it could be some of these mixed with the local lions, but Brandt is very clear about lions in south-west Asia: they were there well before humans began writing about them. I also think they were not pushed out of India by tigers. Asian lions were exterminated by humans when these began to multiply and fire-arms and poison became available. The reason is they were much more visible and, therefore, vulnarable.


THE FUTURE OF INDIAN LIONS

Based on what I read in Brandt's book, lions, I think, could be re-introduced in most wild parts of Asia Minor. The problem, of course, is the region is unstable. Eastern Turkey, parts of southern Georgia and northern Irak, Iran and some parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan, however, could be suited. For now. My choice, strange as it may sound, would be the region in eastern Iran, north-western Pakistan and east and south-east Afghanistan. Barren and elevated it is, but largely deserted. We'd have to meet with some of the local warlords, of course. If there are, as rumours suggest, any Caspian tigers left, they would be in that part of Asia. Some of the former Sovjet Republics (in the extreme south of the former Sovjet-Union) could be suited as well. Things are a bit slow over there. Lions could boost tourism. But I would want to see a few Caspian tigers as well. 
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Sri Lanka Apollo Offline
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Relocating a group of asiatic lions to a different country is a very BIG step.
I dont think its the right time to take such decisions.
There are alot of factors involved - climatic factors, prey base factors, ecosystem factors, political factors, scientific factors, stress factors etc.

There is no any proper studies or research involved at the moment on relocation of gir lions.
I dont think its a good idea to put two countries reputation on stack without proper scientific backup.
Any failure will not only affect the lions but also other similar translocation programs.


I personally think India is a far safer place for Gir lions and Bengal tigers when compared to other countries.
The tolerance level of the community even after losing lifestocks and human lives is amazing, especially when there is no proper financial support given by the government to these affected communities.
Also India is the top and most successful when it comes to tiger conservation compared to other countries.

My suggestion would be to translocate few groups of gir lions within India.
Ideal locations will be landscapes and climatics conditions similar to gir (home like conditions) with proper prey base. This will reduce the stress factors on lions alot. 
See and study the progress scientifically. Make that relocation program a BIG success within the country and then we can think of relocating them to other countries.
But unfortunately the internal politics within the country is a big headache when it comes gir lions translocation.

 
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United States Roflcopters Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-31-2015, 05:04 PM by Roflcopters )

There is far too much politics involved in this, I personally don't see a relocation attempt working out in India since Kuno is far too close to the tiger territories and If i am not mistaken, there's already a male residing there (T-38 of Ranthambore travelled all the way to Kuno and is now believed to be living in the Park). anything else on the map is taken or occupied by tigers, so India for me is out of the picture. These lions need a new home with a sufficient prey-base and Unfortunately, I don't see many options out there either. Also, "Middle East" is unsafe for the obvious reasons. 


*This image is copyright of its original author


here's the map of India along with all the Tiger Reserves, there's really no room for lions to expand. btw, since Gujarat is not shown on that map. Just look at the little area on top of the Arabian Sea. that's Gujarat where Gir National Park is. 
*This image is copyright of its original author


 

 

 

 
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United States Pckts Offline
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(01-31-2015, 11:08 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Some time ago, a poster ask me where will be good places to relocate Asian lions. I made a little analysis and at the end, Greece was not an appropriated place right now.

The reasons were that there is not too much space (lions need large territories), there is no large prey and if they are, there is in very small densities. Finally, the economic situation of Greece is very bad and I doubt that many people will be happy with wild lions over there. Western people think that they love wild animals, but when those animals are they neighbors, there is another story (check the people in USA when they knew that grey wolves will be introduced in Yellowstone, it was a mess).

Maybe, if Greece would have large wild areas with relative high large-prey levels, then it will be a good option, but for the moment, I doubt that.

Middle east is out of the question, that place is a time bomb and the last thing they need is a large predator trying to survive in such a hostile place.

The only other place, with relative good options is the Barbary region, from Morocco to Algeria, where there are still areas for the reintroduction, but many of those places only reproduce the same case of Greece. Morocco seems to be the only plausible area, and taking in count that the "Indian" lions are the only "true" Barbary lions still alive, this choise is a hundred times better than those Zoo lions that are half Barbary and half any other lion (including the Rabat Zoo [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]).

I will love to see lions in Greece again, just to watch such a magnificent animal that give origin to many legends, like the sphinx and the lion of Nemea, for example. Lions are/were an important part of Greece, but humans rip apart from it, very very sad. [img]images/smilies/sad.gif[/img]
 

 
I agree that greece is not fit for a Lion reintroduction program.
I am not sure what you mean with the Wolves in Yellowstone refference, but woves have absolutely become extremely successful there and infact, they have helped subside the ever growing elk population that became to much and started eating way many plants that used to grow frequent. I posted the story on another thread here.


 
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Greece teresek Offline
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(01-31-2015, 11:08 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Some time ago, a poster ask me where will be good places to relocate Asian lions. I made a little analysis and at the end, Greece was not an appropriated place right now.

The reasons were that there is not too much space (lions need large territories), there is no large prey and if they are, there is in very small densities. Finally, the economic situation of Greece is very bad and I doubt that many people will be happy with wild lions over there. Western people think that they love wild animals, but when those animals are they neighbors, there is another story (check the people in USA when they knew that grey wolves will be introduced in Yellowstone, it was a mess).

Maybe, if Greece would have large wild areas with relative high large-prey levels, then it will be a good option, but for the moment, I doubt that.

Middle east is out of the question, that place is a time bomb and the last thing they need is a large predator trying to survive in such a hostile place.

The only other place, with relative good options is the Barbary region, from Morocco to Algeria, where there are still areas for the reintroduction, but many of those places only reproduce the same case of Greece. Morocco seems to be the only plausible area, and taking in count that the "Indian" lions are the only "true" Barbary lions still alive, this choise is a hundred times better than those Zoo lions that are half Barbary and half any other lion (including the Rabat Zoo [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]).

I will love to see lions in Greece again, just to watch such a magnificent animal that give origin to many legends, like the sphinx and the lion of Nemea, for example. Lions are/were an important part of Greece, but humans rip apart from it, very very sad. [img]images/smilies/sad.gif[/img]
 


 

I respect your opinion but i totally disagree with you.
There are too many things you don't know and probably if i were in your position i would write the same stuff.

Greece is a small country with 24 national parks but still has room for a national park bigger than 700km2 far away from the big cities.
How exactly do i know it? I live here!

Kerkini lake (also a national park) for example has over 10.000 buffalos which weight range from 400 to 750kg in a 300km2 territory. It seems like they're waiting for the asiatic lion. Plus this area is near where Xerxes had fed the lions with his camels. 

Greek economy is bad but you can't imagine how many super-rich are out there. I mean billionaires who would gladly fund an extraordinary place like this. Profit is their leader after all.

Most people in greece love animals and especially cats. There is a greek forum about cats which has over 500.000 members. The population of Greece is 11 million. 

I could continue but i think you grasped the point. Greece must have lions because its people love cats. LoL

 

 
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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(02-01-2015, 12:28 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: I agree that greece is not fit for a Lion reintroduction program.
I am not sure what you mean with the Wolves in Yellowstone refference, but woves have absolutely become extremely successful there and infact, they have helped subside the ever growing elk population that became to much and started eating way many plants that used to grow frequent. I posted the story on another thread here.

 
What I mean with the wolves in Yellowstone is not about the wolves itselves, but about the people. The people protested against the release of wolves, they even tryed to stop the releases with boycots, because they said that the wolves will attack they animals, living in the vicinities, that is what I tried to say. Wolves has been very succesfull in that area, alhtough the only problems has been for pumas, which are now under preasure of wolves and they normally steal they kills.

In november of 2013, an article of Douglas Chadwick in National Geographic Magazine stated that the behaviour of the cougars is changing in those areas where wolves has been reintroduced and they seems to be more "social" in order to protect they kills and they cubs. However, he also accept the fact the maybe, the "new" behaviour could be in fact, the real behaviour previous to the extermination of the wolves in so many parts of the USA. It is an interesting article, if you can found it, read it. I can scan the pages, but they are in Spanish.
 
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