There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(05-30-2018, 05:34 AM)peter Wrote: BEWARE OF THE TIGER
This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.
One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.
Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.
In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.
Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.
I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.
Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate.
The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.
Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.
I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so.
Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
Peter，Have you noticed that many captive lion's sizes are small, even compared with female lions and tigers, like this
*This image is copyright of its original author
We don't know what the true reason is, as a matter of fact, in the wild——male lions are bigger half of than lioness as usual, their bodies look longer and taller too, but in the captivity many male lions look smaller and shorter
More on Guilfoyle's act, he mixed lions and tigers together:
"Manuel's father met John C. "Chubby" Guilfoyle who was a first-class trainer even after he lost his arm in the 1920's during a lion/tiger mix-up which went really bad."
(05-30-2018, 05:34 AM)peter Wrote: BEWARE OF THE TIGER
This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.
One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.
Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.
In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.
Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.
I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.
Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate.
The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.
Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.
I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so.
Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
Peter，Have you noticed that many captive lion's sizes are small, even compared with female lions and tigers, like this
*This image is copyright of its original author
We don't know what the true reason is, as a matter of fact, in the wild——male lions are bigger half of than lioness as usual, their bodies look longer and taller too, but in the captivity many male lions look smaller and shorter
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
No, lions are plenty large in captivity, they just tend to be more stout with less definition compared to their wild counterparts. I have seen some gigantic Lioness in captivity though, much larger than any Lioness I have seen in the wild.
The following 1 user Likes Pckts's post:1 user Likes Pckts's post • epaiva
(05-30-2018, 05:34 AM)peter Wrote: BEWARE OF THE TIGER
This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.
One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.
Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.
In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.
Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.
I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.
Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate.
The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.
Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.
I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so.
Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
Peter，Have you noticed that many captive lion's sizes are small, even compared with female lions and tigers, like this
*This image is copyright of its original author
We don't know what the true reason is, as a matter of fact, in the wild——male lions are bigger half of than lioness as usual, their bodies look longer and taller too, but in the captivity many male lions look smaller and shorter
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
No, lions are plenty large in captivity, they just tend to be more stout with less definition compared to their wild counterparts. I have seen some gigantic Lioness in captivity though, much larger than any Lioness I have seen in the wild.
Some captive male lions are really small, but also have some really large one, the Lioness in the captivity can be growing bigger exactly. In the captivity, animal's growth will be changed
My favorite circus animal trainer, Gunther Gebel-Williams
From 1968 to 2001, Gunther Gebel-Williams was, in the United States, the most celebrated circus performer of his generation—a true media star whose only equivalents in the twentieth century had been Alfredo Codona and Lilian Leitzel. An extremely talented and charismatic performer, he was also, for circus enthusiasts and circus professionals around the world, one of the greatest animal trainers of the second half of the twentieth century.
09-28-2018, 12:26 AM( This post was last modified: 09-28-2018, 12:27 AM by Kingtheropod )
(09-21-2018, 05:59 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:
(09-21-2018, 01:59 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(09-20-2018, 05:05 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 05:34 AM)peter Wrote: BEWARE OF THE TIGER
This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.
One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.
Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.
In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.
Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.
I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.
Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate.
The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.
Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.
I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so.
Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
Peter，Have you noticed that many captive lion's sizes are small, even compared with female lions and tigers, like this
*This image is copyright of its original author
We don't know what the true reason is, as a matter of fact, in the wild——male lions are bigger half of than lioness as usual, their bodies look longer and taller too, but in the captivity many male lions look smaller and shorter
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
No, lions are plenty large in captivity, they just tend to be more stout with less definition compared to their wild counterparts. I have seen some gigantic Lioness in captivity though, much larger than any Lioness I have seen in the wild.
Some captive male lions are really small, but also have some really large one, the Lioness in the captivity can be growing bigger exactly. In the captivity, animal's growth will be changed
I think there is more variation among captive lions compared to wild ones. The captive environment allows some lions to obtain very large size (over 270 kg) compared to wild lions which very rarely obtain such sizes. As long as a captive cat is fed well, he can achieve such weights, compared to wild cats where getting such food is not so easy. In the wild, small lions are more likely to be killed in territorial fights also, so it makes sense that you can also see more small lions in captivity too because small lions can live to adult hood in captivity compared to small lions in the wild that will end up getting killed. Hence the reason for greater extremes for captive cats.
