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Animal trainers

Finland Shadow Offline
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This is a short glimpse to one place, where animals are kept in quite nice looking conditions and also trained to perform in movies. That guy should find some time for dates, I think Wink




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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-03-2019, 05:55 PM by Shadow )

Article about Alexander Lacey, who trains big cats.

One quote, because people often are interested about differences between lions and tigers. Here is what Lacey thinks:

"So, then, do the animals show desire for personal space?

Yes, lions and tigers do have good days and bad days, says Lacey. Because he spends a lot of time with these animals, he knows their moods and behaviors.

“Lions are safer that way because if they are in a ‘bad mood,’ they let me know early in the day. Tigers are tricky in that they can turn the tide within a few minutes. With Ringling, we did about 500 shows a year; if a tiger or lion wants a day off, then so be it. Our animals are never forced to perform when they don’t want to … the number of cats in any particular show varies from day to day.”"

https://owlcation.com/misc/Alexander-Lacey-Big-Cat-Trainer-and-Animal-Lover


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-03-2019, 06:42 PM by Shadow )

Interview of Alexander Lacey, a little bit about what it is to be an animal trainer and background of his. Always interesting to hear what someone says with his own words.





Another interview, in this more about when training starts and so on.




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Finland Shadow Offline
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One more video about Alexander Lacey. Here he presents his big cats and around 0:57 when male lion Masai comes to arena he say, that it is the biggest of the bunch. And later, that it weighs 750 lbs. I was looking for some video, where he mention something about his size, because Masai certainly looks big in photos. It would be very interesting to know a bit more about that lion, because 750 lbs sounds a lot and it doesn´t look like to be grossly obese. 650 lbs is easy to change 750 lbs for marketing Wink But very handsome lion, that is clear. 




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Finland Shadow Offline
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I put some videos still, which I find more interesting than some fighting incidents. For me all those "who wins" discussions are in the end not so important, if not thinking about it, that every fight in captivity between different species should be seen more or less as failures of owners/trainers. When tiger and lion fight in captivity, it tells to me, that owner didn´t know his/hers animals as good as he/she thought. I am interested to look at signs, that are some animals in captivity forced to do something, or are they trained so, that they like to do things.










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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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@Shadow :

About #171: I don't like the animal circus, especially with big cats. Nevertheless I'm agree with you when you told that a good mixed turn (lions and tigers, males and females) requires a perfect knowledge of every animal's personality, and, perhaps, under this condition the animals could be not so unhappy to work together.

Inside this video, "Masai" isn't the only one big lion. His fellow "King" is a big one too. These two big males are perhaps used to "stabilize the group", i.e. the other felids. They don't act very much, usually the last, a kind of "quiet strength", and that that is perhaps the most remarkable if we consider the number of females, lionesses and tigresses, around them. Lionesses and tigers (males and females included) are more active.



Always with Bros:


*This image is copyright of its original author

John Grant
Ajoutée le 8 avr. 2017


Alexander lacey in one of his final tours with the Ringling Bros.








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Finland Shadow Offline
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(07-05-2019, 09:44 AM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow :

About #171: I don't like the animal circus, especially with big cats. Nevertheless I'm agree with you when you told that a good mixed turn (lions and tigers, males and females) requires a perfect knowledge of every animal's personality, and, perhaps, under this condition the animals could be not so unhappy to work together.

Inside this video, "Masai" isn't the only one big lion. His fellow "King" is a big one too. These two big males are perhaps used to "stabilize the group", i.e. the other felids. They don't act very much, usually the last, a kind of "quiet strength", and that that is perhaps the most remarkable if we consider the number of females, lionesses and tigresses, around them. Lionesses and tigers (males and females included) are more active.



Always with Bros:


*This image is copyright of its original author

John Grant
Ajoutée le 8 avr. 2017


Alexander lacey in one of his final tours with the Ringling Bros.









Situation has changed a lot from past and it can be seen as a quite complex matter. Captive animals are after all in current conditions also representing hope in fight against total extinction of some species. But that is one thing, other thing is then it, that despite of it what you or I or some others think we do have a lot of big cats in captivity and it is not going to change anytime soon at least. So knowing, that there won´t be quick changes in overall situation and when discussing about animal trainers I like to pay attention to things where also quick changes are possible. And what should be important to people who say, that they love animals. One thing is how these animals are treated in different places.

Not just looking videos and interviews about trainers and when not finding any lion-tiger fights, skipping and thinking "boring, I want to see dead lions and tigers in fights, not well treated enjoying their lives". Or "Oh, this guy likes both, tigers and lions, not a good trainer for me, I want to find someone who says, that lion or tiger is superior"... When knowing it, that there has been troubles in past, it would be actually interesting to learn more, that how things have been developed to better for instance what comes to Lacey and his family. I haven´t seen so far any headlines about animal fights during his performances or outside shows.

Naturally differences between animals are always interesting, but really so should be conditions of captive animals and how they are treated and trained.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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@Shadow :

About #173: I see a difference between captive animals and captive trained animals. I don't have any bias against captive animals which are a consequence of our actual epoch. But to see some big felids doing what a trainier want them to do is tragic for me, because the animal's true "intelligence" can be only seen in wild. No need to argument about that.

That being said, of course I don't doubt about the trainier's sincerity and love toward his animals. And to see several lions and tigers, males and females, sharing the same show without problem would be always more instructiv than seeing them fighting because the show would present some big failures.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-05-2019, 04:43 PM by Shadow )

(07-05-2019, 04:05 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow :

About #173: I see a difference between captive animals and captive trained animals. I don't have any bias against captive animals which are a consequence of our actual epoch. But to see some big felids doing what a trainier want them to do is tragic for me, because the animal's true "intelligence" can be only seen in wild. No need to argument about that.

That being said, of course I don't doubt about the trainier's sincerity and love toward his animals. And to see several lions and tigers, males and females, sharing the same show without problem would be always more instructiv than seeing them fighting because the show would present some big failures.

It is actually quite interesting thing to think a bit. In zoos animals are in cages, sometimes alone, sometimes with some others. There they are then, some interaction with people, when feeding and/or needing some treatment...

Then we have animals in some shows, circuses etc. These animals travel a lot, but then again, they also have a lot of interaction there with trainers, maybe with some other animals in the show. Which is then better? For instance you can see how tiger Bella(?) goes to Lacey before leaving enclosure in show, pushing with head and obviously waiting to be caressed a bit. You can see how King tenderly pushes Masai when they come down from those high seats. 

So even though they do as trainer wants there, do they suffer for that? These animals have born as domestic animals practically, used to people, not taken from savannah or jungle. It is easy to say, as some say, that cruel and not good. Overall I agree, that wild animals should be wild. And the less there are captive "wild animals", the better. But I wonder if that is too easy just to be offended always, when seeing a captive animal. 

In time hopefully tigers and lions would be in captivity only if needing some treatment justified by conservation efforts. But meanwhile when discussing about captive animals, I think that it is good to think about it, that some animals might even enjoy about many aspects of their life even though performing in circus. I haven´t payed attention too much, but for instance @Kathlee111 mentioned, that animals she trained lived in some farm or something like that and had also opportunities to spend time outside cages. Actually that would be interesting to know better. How much "vacations" these animals, performing in shows, have and do they have possibilities to just relax and spend time in bigger enclosures, feeling the wind and some free space at least time to time?
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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@Shadow:

About #175: I just rectify a little bit what I told at #174. When I think about captive animals, I think about animals living in open air as couple or in pride but absolutely not in cages and thus too not taken from wild. Of course their territory is absolutely too restricted but at least they can run a little bit. To see animals in cages, IMO, means witnessing reclusion, imprisonment.

As for the rest, agree with you.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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(07-05-2019, 06:11 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Shadow:

About #175: I just rectify a little bit what I told at #174. When I think about captive animals, I think about animals living in open air as couple or in pride but absolutely not in cages and thus too not taken from wild. Of course their territory is absolutely too restricted but at least they can run a little bit. To see animals in cages, IMO, means witnessing reclusion, imprisonment.

As for the rest, agree with you.

My point is more or less, that almost no-one likes to see caged animals. But it is as it is and there is nothing what can be done in short term. So instead of always saying the obvious, maybe sometimes it is good to discuss what can be actually changed in shorter term. One thing is, that if there is some place, where animals are treated poorly, that kind of place can be looked closer and for instance officials can intervene.

When we look at overall situation, it is obvious, that we can´t get rid of captive animals just like that. That is impossible from various reasons, one for instance, that what should all those people do, who get living as zookeepers, trainers and so on. It is easy to say, that something is not right, but as usual, things aren´t that simple. It is good, that animal activists defend animal rights, but if people want to make changes, then looking at both sides of the coin is needed. And while waiting for bigger changes there are a lot of smaller, but important, things to do too. 

I just don´t like, when seeing time to time animal activists, who actually know nothing about wildlife and would shit their pants, if someone would drop them in the middle of the forest with tent and tell to hang on for 2-3 days Grin Or some trainer saying, "ok, you don´t like how I train this tiger, please come in here and show me how it should be done Wink".

Anyway it would be nice to have some discussion about trainers from that point of view, that who seem to do it so, that animals seem to be calm and expressing, that they actually like their trainer etc. And who then again seem to have nervous, timid and aggressive animals. For some reason I tend to believe more what such trainers say, who have these calm animals. There has to be something they do right, when animals act like that.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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For those who want to see males lions jumping as the tigers do... Manuel Farina.


Manuel Farina Lion Trainer




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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-01-2019, 05:39 PM by peter )

2 INTERESTING ARTICLES ABOUT BIG CAT TRAINERS 

a - Thomas Chipperfield (2018):

https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/22/my-odd-job-im-a-third-generation-lion-tamer-and-ive-been-training-big-cats-since-i-was-15-7755654/

b - Gloria Johnson (2001):

https://eu.tallahassee.com/story/entertainment/2019/01/02/savage-kingdom-tiger-attack-rare-cats-gloria-johnson-mark-hinson/2464651002/
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United States RakeshMondal Offline
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We all know the incident where Roy Horn (tiger trainer) was attacked by a tiger, right?

A tiger handler by the name of Chris Lawrence who was working with Roy Horn, recently a few months ago spoke out on what actually happened in this incident.

Interesting article

Quote:Siegfried & Roy tiger handler says the real cause of 2003 mauling was covered up


Now, trainer Chris Lawrence has spoken out to The Hollywood Reporter, claiming Roy himself is to blame for the accident. 

In a long interview, Lawrence says Horn was spending too little time with the tigers before shows, eroding the bond between animal and performer.

"Many of the handlers thought that Roy was treating the cats more like props than he was respecting them for who they were," Lawrence explains to THR. "That can only work as long as there are no variables, which is impossible considering that you're dealing with a living, thinking animal."

Lawrence, 45, has been diagnosed with PTSD and says he is recovering from alcohol abuse, night terrors and suicidal thoughts. He tells THR he's speaking out now to set out the facts before a planned biopic Siegfried & Roy reportedly have in the works.

The night of the accident, Oct. 3, 2003, was Horn's 59th birthday. Because the audience was filled with Horn's friends, the handler says he persuaded Horn to perform with the impressive Montecore.

"This moment haunts me to my core and plagues me with overwhelming guilt," says Lawrence. "I actually talked Roy into using the tiger that would ultimately maul him and end the most successful stage show in the history of Las Vegas."
He says Montecore was quickly off his mark in the performance and into "uncharted waters."

"What Roy did was, instead of walking Montecore in a circle, as is usually done, he just used his arm to steer him right back into his body, in a pirouette motion," Lawrence says. "Montecore's face was right in (Horn's) midsection. By Roy not following the correct procedure, it fed into confusion and rebellion."

When the tiger bit at Horn's sleeve, Lawrence made a move to intervene, tempting him with raw meat. The trainer grabbed Montecore's leash, and the tiger managed to knock both men down.

When the tiger bit at Horn's sleeve, Lawrence made a move to intervene, tempting him with raw meat. The trainer grabbed Montecore's leash, and the tiger managed to knock both men down. 

"I vividly remember thinking, 'Here he comes,' and I experienced all of the things that you hear about prior to your death," he recalls. But the tiger was only interested in Horn, dragging the unconscious performer off the stage.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2019...305790002/
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 08-06-2019, 08:01 PM by peter )

THE POWER OF CAPTIVE BIG CATS

a - Positive

Most of you no doubt know about the conflict in the southeastern part in Ukraine. Conflicts seldom solve problems. They result in casualties. Very often, children become casualties. The boy in this video is one of them. It was his wish to see a tiger. As seeing no longer is option, it was changed for feeling:  

https://www.rt.com/news/249293-donetsk-disabled-boy-tiger/

b - Negative

A little over two decades ago, a rescue facility for big cats was started in the northern part of the Netherlands. The director more than once offered me the opportunity to observe, measure and weight big cats.

As a result of boredom, captive big cats often develop unhealthy habits. In order to prevent boredom, the director of the facility decided to talk to former trainers. One of them was Gaston Bosman. Both men decided to develop a method to activate captive big cats. When they had reached a decision, I was to interview Bosman.

Not long before he started in the facility, Bosman was attacked by a young tigress in the Italian circus where he worked with tigers. Although she was about 13 months of age only, Bosman, close to the end of his career, didn't survive the attack. The director of the facility in the Netherlands thought it made no sense. Unless. I agreed and will leave it at that.

One could write a book about big cat trainers, Italian circuses and casualties. There's something going on there. Here's another report about a trainer killed by tigers:        

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/05/experienced-circus-trainer-mauled-death-italy-four-tigers/
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