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Animal trainers

India Rishi Offline
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Smile  ( This post was last modified: 05-07-2018, 07:59 AM by Rishi )

About time we returned to topic...

So, i once made this collection of photos from Clyde Beatty's acts & animals by gathering the ones readily available on internet. That I'd like to share.

Although, i found his tiger specimens to be sub-par, that man had an absolutely terrific collection, of the most magnificent lions you'll see!
THE. BEST. EVER.


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Although i'm not so sure, the 1st one seems to be his famed "Sultan"...

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I don't think he had many Bengals. 
Some are clearly Sumatran, rest look like Indochinese (by size). Even today lots of Indochinese/crosses masquerade as Bengals in the West.

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FEEL FREE TO ADD MORE IF YOU HAVE THEM!!!..
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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United States Haymaker Offline
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I think the thing is though, is back in Beatty's time, tigers were harder to come by, there were far more lions around.  So getting some big ones wasn't that hard.   But I think its important to understand also that the tigers back then weren't mixed like they are now as much.  His Bengals were straight Bengals, the Siberians were more pure bred, unlike now where there has been so many circus tigers used and bred for decades almost every captive tiger has Siberian mixed into them.  Early on Beatty wanted to increase the numbers, if he didn't have enough tigers he'd just throw in more lions and more lioness's to fill up the arena.  But pics later after the early 30s show a smaller more balanced act f about a dozen cats each.

So I think a purely bred Bengal in Beatty's time, not gorged doesn't always look so huge or thickly built.  The Siberians as he said were bigger, I recall a particular one named Theba that he mentioned early on.  There are also quite a few pics of Beatty with lions that look typically short and not that big compared to his size.

From what Ive seen other people post on this that have looked into it, Beatty seemed to use untamed cats, he also got many from the wild as well, his whole act was could he survive this many cats situated in one ring, that was the drawing point for the ticket sales.  The fans actually came to see if he might get hurt or die, handling untamed lions and tigers mixed of course makes it that much more dangerous.  Early on Beatty wanted to increase the numbers, if he didn't have enough tigers he'd just throw in more lions and more lioness's to fill the ring, that's why some pics show mostly lions, it just depended whether at that time he had any tigers around. 


Here's some more pics of Beatty's tigers in his acts.



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There's about 9 tigers in this shot, 6 lions.


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3 tigers two lions.


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It also depends on what side of the ring the shot is taken from, the two dark cats in silhouette in the foreground are sizeable tigers.

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Beatty would often let in first 3 tigers to take the high seats, then the lions all together, and later the rest of the tigers.  It appears in this photo, the picture is taken in the beginning of the act before the remaining tigers are let in. 



“In 1929. He followed the usual practice of letting in three tigers to take the high pedestals, and 20 lion:- and lionesses followed before he himself entered the safety gate. This period, he savs, although not realized the audience, is the high point of his- act. The animals mill around in the arena and Beatty’s job as he enters with whip, chair and revolver to take in.stan*, command and seat the animals. After he has - formed the living pyramid, he lets in the rest of the tigers.”

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/43641619/






The acts also can vary a lot, the 3 tigers are again seated on the high pedestals, the lions would be let in later, but in this particular show there is far more tigers.


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United States Garfield Offline
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(03-30-2017, 05:07 PM)Rishi Wrote: About time we returned to topic!!!


So, i once made this collection of photos from Clyde Beatty's acts & animals by gathering most of the ones readily available on internet.  That I'd like to share. 

Although, i found his tiger specimens to be sub-par...That man had an absolutely terrific collection, of the most magnificent lions you'll see.
THE. BEST. EVER.


*This image is copyright of its original author

Although i'm not so sure, the 1st one seems to be his famed "Sultan"...

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FEEL FREE TO ADD MORE IF YOU HAVE THEM!!!..






Whoaa man holy molly, this is some cool pics you guys gut in this thread, Ive heard of that guy Betty, great stuff.  Sh!t load of cats in that rang.
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United States Garfield Offline
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(12-15-2015, 12:26 AM)Pckts Wrote:
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Um liken that Bombay tiger, thang is pretty formidable bigleague to me. Seriously looks like a powerful tiger I'd have to say, great trainer stuff haven't  heard of these guys before!
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United States Garfield Offline
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(02-11-2016, 02:49 AM)Pckts Wrote: Next up is Courtney Ryley Cooper


He started off as a run-away circus boy who's first experience with big cats was watching a man at the circus brutally beat a lion so bad until it went blind and beat 3 leopards so bad that he turned them into man haters and eventually man killers once they finally got their claws on a circus superintendent and killed him. Needless to say since that was his only experience with big cat circus trainers he thought that was the only way it was to be done.
Later when he began to pursue this his next mentor had a completely different approach.
He sent in Cooper to walk in his cats, 3 lions and 3 tigers and all he gave cooper was a useless whip and said all he had to do was say "seat" and the cats gave him a quick hiss then proceeded to go straight to their pedestals.
You can tell this was an eye opener for him, he began to realize that these cats have their own personality and respond to love far better than abuse. He also began to communicate to them, lions would "meow" and tigers and leopards would "purr" and if he attempted to communicate this in the same way the cats knew that meant that he was pleased by them and they would always respond the same way.
He also learned that just because an animal makes vicious noises and roars doesn't mean its upset and he would use it to make the crowd think that he was dealing with the most ferocious beast alive, he compared it to playing with some dogs that growl and bark while others stay silent.


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Cooper had an admiration for Captain Dutch Ricardo and Mabel Stark

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another story with stark and "nig" the jaguar

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here he talks about how important it is to raise an elephant with love and respect or else that animal will turn on you one day and that will be your last.

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also interesting to note is Leopard and Tigers hatred for canine and to a lesser extent, Lions. Even more hatred towards the canine is their hatred towards hyena

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In regards to Lion and Tiger interaction, he does seem to feel as though the Tiger is the superior fighter but that doesn't me he is biased. He never makes it a point to pay any real mind to the outcome of any fights between any species out side of 2 events to make his point, he was talking about animals being bullied.
One animal was an old male hippo who was continuously abused by two youngster elephants until finally one day he had enough and snapped and attacked them both and the second event is the famous
Lion vs Tiger fight that saw the lion adopt the tigers fighting style of going up on two legs to leave his paws free and after being bullied by the tiger he finally had enough and a massive fight ensued that left the tiger dead.

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The mane played a factor in this fight as he said this time the tigers claws got caught in the mane and the lion took advantage of it and was able to kill the tiger.

All and all, it was a pretty good book, nothing really new to note as he doesn't get into specifics that often. But you can tell that he adopted the approach of a much more modern idea that animals have feelings too.

Im looking for any new recommendations, I'm thinking of Mabel stark next.



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Ahh hey bro, just to let you no cool book and accounts & stuff, but I seen this one before, and that wrestling tiger Maybel Starks had was anything but a killer tiger.  Tha thing was super small, like you said, born sick, no way it was slaying other full sized lions and tigers, I doubt that.  They probally just said that stuff so when it jumped on Maybel the audience would think it was trying to attack her.  But more like WWE wrestling tiger, not killer tiger, heh.
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United States Garfield Offline
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(05-07-2017, 11:13 AM)Rishi Wrote:
(05-07-2017, 09:52 AM)Garfield Wrote:
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Ahh hey bro, just to let you know cool book and accounts & stuff, but I seen this one before, and that wrestling tiger Maybel Starks had was anything but a killer tiger.  Tha thing was super small, like you said, born sick, no way it was slaying other full sized lions and tigers, I doubt that.  They probally just said that stuff so when it jumped on Maybel the audience would think it was trying to attack her.  But more like WWE wrestling tiger, not killer tiger, heh.

This is a FEMALE, maybe SUMATRAN, CUB!!!  Neutral
Stark's wrestling tiger was a ADULT, MALE called Rajah; weight stated as 400lbs; breed stated as BENGAL.

Plz Google "Tadoba Tiger Gabbar" to find out how a grown male 185kg Bengal Tiger looks like...



Well they say it was 400lbs, just like they say it was a killer tiger, I'm just saying it wasn't tryin to kill her, it was super tame. It wasn't dangerous it all.




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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-07-2018, 08:08 AM by Rishi )

(05-07-2017, 12:08 PM)Garfield Wrote:
Quote:
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Ahh hey bro, just to let you know cool book and accounts & stuff, but I seen this one before, and that wrestling tiger Maybel Starks had was anything but a killer tiger.  Tha thing was super small, like you said, born sick, no way it was slaying other full sized lions and tigers, I doubt that.  They probally just said that stuff so when it jumped on Maybel the audience would think it was trying to attack her.  But more like WWE wrestling tiger, not killer tiger, heh.

Welll they say it was 400lbs, just like they say it was a killer tiger, I'm just saying it wasn't tryin to kill her,
 it was super tame. It wasn't dangerous it all.
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About he being tame, here's what he really used to do.. (Link )
Of Course It Wasn't Trying To Kill Her!!!


Also, the tigers in the two photos are DIFFERENT (which apparently you can't tell) & both are CUBS, as young as 1-year-old. If one of them were her "Rajah" he could have easily, later in adulthood, reached 400lbs. Which i agree may not be that impressive, but that's what makes it easy. 
But.....
YOU CAN'T JUST GO CALLING THE AUTHOR A LIAR or make those above statement i have emboldened, not with that level of "expertise".
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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United States Garfield Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-08-2017, 12:54 AM by Garfield )

(05-07-2017, 01:34 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(05-07-2017, 12:08 PM)Garfield Wrote:
Quote:
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Ahh hey bro, just to let you know cool book and accounts & stuff, but I seen this one before, and that wrestling tiger Maybel Starks had was anything but a killer tiger.  Tha thing was super small, like you said, born sick, no way it was slaying other full sized lions and tigers, I doubt that.  They probally just said that stuff so when it jumped on Maybel the audience would think it was trying to attack her.  But more like WWE wrestling tiger, not killer tiger, heh.

Welll they say it was 400lbs, just like they say it was a killer tiger, I'm just saying it wasn't tryin to kill her,
 it was super tame. It wasn't dangerous it all.
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About he being tame, here's what he really used to do..( https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-final-confession-of-mabel-stark-by-robert-hough-105320.html&ved=0ahUKEwiMopbMnt3TAhXHrY8KHaIIDgoQFghZMAw&usg=AFQjCNElAcTOJZSIAzRgwHU9diRoQoY0Ag&sig2=A4tyC2vVsIaez4unOqVXog )
OF COURSE IT WASN'T TRYING TO KILL HER!!!


Also, the tigers in the two photos are DIFFERENT & both are CUBS, as young as 1-year-old. If one of them were her "Rajah" he could have easily, later in adulthood, reached 400lbs (which i agree may not be that impressive). 
But.....
YOU CAN'T JUST GO CALLING THE AUTHOR A LIAR...or make those above statement i have emboldened, not with that level of "expertise".




Hey bro, yeh, not sayin the author is lying just sayin most likely someone else told him the story so he may just be reapeating what he heard from somone else maybe a circus boss dude made it up.    Becaz fo sure like youre saying, she raised that thing sick, sick cats don't grow as big usally, I heard that from somone no joke usually their size is stunted and body weakned, it probally should of been at least 480lbs not 400lb and my guess is it wasnt not even 400.
That's why when you see the pics of it, you keep callin it a cub, but thats actually its full size she had white on when she wrestled it, cause of the mating jizz, , its a pretty famous cat so you can google all the pics of it. 

As far as it killin the other cats Maybel never said anything about this from another bro I saw debating this, she never spoke of it, so wed need a play by play of it, not just whoa this is killer tiger bro.  And Ive seen some of these accounts debated on some other mad sites, and you gut a be skeptical. There just aint anyway a cat that shes sleepin with in a bed raisen from birth hangin in hotels, is that super tame, and its goin around slayin full size lions and tigers. Plus they say but with a string she can lead it around the ring in perfect safty, nah shes leadin it around because she raised the thing, yet they calling it a murderous tiger, I flunked math but this subtraction edition dont add up bro.
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United States Garfield Offline
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You guys probably seen this one but I figure it worth a repost, cuz I ain't never seen no other circus cat used for this trick.  Lion pretty strong and sturdy to be able to hold this guy and leap in mid air with him. Um not sure if a tiger has ever done this.


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Ok I just realized i posted this in the wrong thread I didnt realize it said captive weights, so I found a circus thread to post it back in sorry.
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United States Garfield Offline
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And I think one thing that help the lion to do this is sometimes it have this really thick rear legs, super thick and chunky probably givin it a lot of power to hold these bros up on its back.  This was Craig Busches lion, an I think Craig Busch is a pretty big dude.  You can see here how strong the lions rear legs are, whoa.



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( This post was last modified: 11-14-2017, 11:02 AM by paul cooper )

(03-30-2017, 09:15 AM)Haymaker Wrote: Ok, so is this the thread that were suppose to have debates in I was told?

What I first notice about the trainer Alex Kerr, is yes he's saying tigers usually win in fights, but he also says this, " I had always hankered after tigers."  My dream act is to have a group of cats, preferably tigers..."  " They talk to me in a variety of ways, for tigers have many more voices then lions."  " He has the sound of friendship a low moan like moo..."
There is no such thing as being not bias. Everyone is always inclined to a side. Lion or tiger. Its pretty irrelevant if he likes tigers LOL.
(05-05-2017, 09:54 AM)Garfield Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 12:26 AM)Pckts Wrote:
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Um liken that Bombay tiger, thang is pretty formidable bigleague to me. Seriously looks like a powerful tiger I'd have to say, great trainer stuff haven't  heard of these guys before!
What happened with tigers being "skinny"?
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( This post was last modified: 12-21-2017, 05:30 AM by paul cooper )

(12-04-2015, 06:51 PM)peter Wrote: 2 - Captive big cats

Most posters don't seem to realize that captivity has profound consequences. Those who top the food chain in particular are affected. The reason is big predators do not get the opportunity to learn and develop. In many respects, they remain infants all their life.    

A century ago, authorities already noticed that captive tigers, in zoos all over the world, were mere shadows of their wild relatives. Parodies. The most likely reason is no exercise and no development whatsoever. Another is those who breed them have very little knowledge. As there was nobody to stop them, they just crapped around. The consequences were profound.  

Tigers are more affected by captivity than lions. Here's why. Adult wild tigers are professional big game hunters. Learning how to hunt and how to overcome resistance of very powerful animals on your own takes a lot of time. It also is dangerous. Those who make mistakes not seldom perish. Those who learn how to hunt and reach adulthood than have to learn how to earn and defend a territory. When they succeed and keep it up for a few years, they will breed. This means that only the best breed. In captivity, the essence of tigers is lost. And it shows. In captive tigers, you still see the fundaments of what a tiger is supposed to be. It takes a long time to affect the bones and structure, but muscles are affected immediately. Same for mental development.

Lions, in contrast to tigers, are social big cats. In captivity, they also live in prides. Hunting skills, of course, are lost, but social skills are not. Males in particular interact in more or less the same way as their wild relatives. This mean they, in contrast to tigers, face competition. Nearly everything they do is affected by it. Males strive for dominance, they eat first and they often fight, just like their wild counterparts. As they don't need energy to hunt anymore, chances are the extra energy is invested in competition. Captive male lions, if anything, are even more aggressive than their wild counterparts. Will captivity affect their body? Of course it does, but not to the degree seen in tigers. As they don't need to hunt anymore and eat enough (not always true for wild male lions), there's no need for athletic bodies and endurance anymore. Compact and robust bodies would be much more appropiate for captive male lions and that's what we get. Although there's no reliable information, my guess is captive male lions are more robust and heavier than their wild relatives.

All in all, the conclusion is that captive tigers degenerate and keep on degenerating. After some generations, you will see a parody on a wild tiger. This is not the case for captive male lions for the reasons mentioned above. Does it show in captive animals? Yes. Although a bit shorter, captive male lions generally are more robust and heavier than male tigers at equal length. Although there are plenty of exceptions, I saw it time and again. My guess is this could be the general rule in captive lions and tigers all over the world.            

This should back you up:
"In order to detect tiger genes evolving under positive selection, we used the conserved genome synteny methodology19 (between human and other mammalian species (cat, dog, mouse and panda)) and a branch-site likelihood ratio test (Methods). A total of 178 positively selected genes out of 7,415 high-quality ortholog genes were identified in the Amur tiger (Supplementary Table S35, Supplementary Data 1). Functional categories for positively selected genes were over-represented in muscle filament sliding (GO:0030049, P=0.0049, Fisher's exact test, MYH7, TPM4 and TNNC2), filamentous actin (GO:0031941, P=0.0062, TPM4 and MYO1A) and stress fibre (GO:0001725, P=0.0039, MYH7, TPM4 and ACTN4) (Supplementary Table S36, Supplementary Data 2). We also identified GO categories, which are evolving under significantly high constraints19 (Supplementary Tables S37–S39, Supplementary Methods). Significantly altered Ka/Ks ratios of non-synonymous to synonymous substitutions for GO categories (P<0.01, Binomial test) revealed evidence of rapid evolution in the tiger for muscle strength (muscle contraction and actin cytoskeleton), energy metabolism (GTPase activity, ATP binding and energy reserve metabolic process), and sensory nerves (G-protein coupled receptor activity, olfactory receptor activity, visual perception and nervous system development)"
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3433
The specimen used was a 9 year old male amur tiger from Everland zoo.
Go to table S42 to see everything.. https://images.nature.com/original/natur...433-s1.pdf
Interesting to see.

Obviously they are evolving for the worse. Use it or lose it.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-20-2017, 12:08 PM by peter )

PAUL COOPER

Thanks for the link. Read the study yesterday. That is to say, I gave it a try. Although not that badly trained (Phd Geography), I have to admit I didn't understand one yota of what I saw. I know geography and magic are two different entities, but it is stunning to witness them formulas and all kinds of computations corrected for all kinds of errors flying all over the place time and again. Reading this type of study reminds me of watching Monty Python: after you saw an episode, you need some time to recover. 

I assume those involved in the study gave it their best, but I would recommend a course in transforming information into words and paragraphs that could be considered as accessable for the general public. An art in itself, I think. Conclusionwise, it wouldn't hurt to add a bit on reliability and reach as well. I mean, if only one Amur tiger was involved, chances are they caught the exception. 

Anyhow. Use it or lose it could be a decent summary, but we have to remember that we first need someone able in magic to get to any kind of conclusion. For now, I'd say the study, in a way, underlines that solitary big game hunters need to be able to adapt quickly to circumstances or else. In this respect, they could compare to us. Both are vulnarable.

As to the remark on robustness of tigers and lions in the post you quoted. What I concluded, was based on what I saw in zoos and facilities in western Europe. The most robust tigers I saw were male Amur tigers. Most of them were larger (and heavier) than captive lions, but most lions were relatively as robust or even more so. This remark relates to head (circumference) and body (chest), not the neck, shoulders and limbs. Very large male lions can reach a weight of about 550 pounds (at least one was just over 600, but he was a white lion), but most males seem to range between 400-450 pounds. Male Amur tigers average 430-480 pounds, with some well over 600. 

In China and, perhaps, Korea, people could have a somewhat different idea about captive lions and tigers. The reason is quite a few large Amur tigers and a lot of smaller lions. I don't know why, but captive lions in that part of Asia seem to be smaller than in western Europe and the US. 

All bets are off when wild big cats come into play. Tigers just south of the Himalayas (Nepal and northern India) seem to be the largest and most robust wild big cats today, with central and southern India tied for second. Lions in southern parts of Africa are close, but not quite. Kruger lions seem to be as heavy as Amur tigers, but the sample of Amur tigers is too small to get to conclusions. Crater lions could outaverage both (weight), but Kazirangha tigers also are very robust. Unknown entities for now.  

My guess is that Gir lions are a bit underestimated. Same for Congo lions (now gone). I saw more than one skull with a greatest total length of 380,00 mm. and even slightly over from that region.

Wild Amur tigers are unique in tigers in that they are smaller than their captive relatives. A result of habitat destruction, prey depletion and a population bottleneck in the twenties and thirties of the last century. Tigers respond to pressure by quickly losing size. Saw it in more than one region. If this is true, the opposite also is true.

Today, the Russians are very serious about protection. Same for the Chinese, at least up north. When the conditions improve, chances are that males will get closer to the historic average (about 475 pounds) in one or two decades from now. In order to get there, the Russians need to tackle three problems: 60 000 hunters with a license, professional poachers and legislation.  

This thread is about trainers. Found anything of interest? Talked to people in the know? All of us are affected by preference, but there good information and there's something else. Over here, we like good information. It's there.
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China Betty Offline
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Tiger can do the same thing, but we rarely see these in the circus.


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United States paul cooper Offline
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"What we've found to be the case in the big cage may not be true of the veldt. There's a great difference between animals living in a six-by-ten foot cage and one exercising and fighting for his supper in the forest. For all i know, the tiger might be able to uncork a few surprises he cannot use within the confines of the arena bars."
-Clyde Beatty 
trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169631002
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