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Animal trainers
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 (12-07-2015, 05:35 PM)Spalea Wrote: @ Peter: Great your explanations about the differences of behavior between male lions and male tigers ! That is the first time where I can read it with so much clarity. Wagdoh is probably around 15 years by now. The first time I saw him was 2007, and I was impressive by the stature of this male tiger. And he didn't look like a subadult male, but a large mature male around 6-7 years old. 
Great stuff Peter, as usual.
I'm not trying to make the argument of bengals being larger than amurs in captivity or the wild or the other way around. But this trainer, Tony Hughes, has seen what he says were "pure indian tigers" which is awesome, the fact that he says they are larger than Amurs at maximum and all around the same size on average sheds quite a bit of light. We all are under the impression that Amurs are the largest in captivity, Beatty was one to say this, as well as a few others I have read and posted about. That being said, beatty, who said it, received his tigers from Roth or Proske (I always confuse the books) and he said the tigers were brought from Bengal, which very well could of been sunderban tigers or similar to them and smaller in size than compared to central and n. indian tigers who I never read about being used in circus acts. I know the book I'm speaking of, the trainer (Proske or Roth) trained both Beatty and Stark, his tigers where bought and sold throughout Europe, it wasn't till N. American Trainers started purchasing his tigers and lions that they were used in N. America, and I believe only a few were purchased then used to breed and sell throughout N. America, which I always thought was the beginning stages as to why we have so many N. American Tigers here now, and they are all so severely inbred and hybridized.  (12-07-2015, 10:50 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:(12-07-2015, 05:35 PM)Spalea Wrote: @ Peter: Great your explanations about the differences of behavior between male lions and male tigers ! That is the first time where I can read it with so much clarity. Lions There are no lone wild male lions in Africa, Spalea. Not for long, I mean. A pride male can be for some time when he is defeated, but chances are he will team up with others as soon as possible. A solitary male doesn't stand a chance in the long run. Not in regions with many lions. Man-eaters often operate in small groups as well. Solitary man-eaters often are desperate animals unable to team up or to hunt. The pressure on wild males in particular is such, that they don't last for long. This is not a result of genes (captive male lions often live for 15-20 years and most of those I saw, in contrast to old male tigers, were still quite fit when they died or, as a result of an injury, had to be euthanized), but a result of their way of life. In Africa, only the fit, no matter what species, stand a chance to get to old age. And old age is reached immediately after the best years. Tigers In India, tigers reach 10-15 years every now and then. Middle-aged male tigers, although not as active as before, still put on weight. As a result of their size, quite many can survive and even win fights. When they feel the end is near, they retreat to a secluded part of their territory. Some males reach 15 or even a bit more. Just before they die of natural causes, they often are thin as a rail. A century ago, Corbett, as a result of a misunderstanding, shot the 15-year old Pipal Pani tiger he had known all his life. This tiger, 10.3 'over curves', was still as fit and capable as they come. Corbett thought he easily could have added 5 more years or even more. Wiele, a few decades before Corbett, wrote about a very large male in southern India. This giant was well-known by the locals, who told him the tiger was at least 20 years of age. There are more reliable reports about very old animals. Lions, tigers and humans In Africa, lion society is as tough as it gets. The competition for hot spots, females and food has consequences. Even pride males have to compete for females and food with the other members of the brotherhood. For many males, competition never stops. Never a dull moment. To get an idea of what it feels like, compare it to us. Today, many humans reach 80 and over. This is a result of good conditions and organisation. Just suppose the organisation breaks down and competition replaces laws. After a few decades, only young males operating in groups will be left. Only the very best would stand a chance to reach 40. This is why a wild male lion seldom reaches 10. Tigers are forest animals. India still has a lot of forest. When protection would be taken seriously and the number of wild ungulates would rise, India could still accomodate many thousands of tigers. The problem is only a tiny part of wild India is protected. Most tigers live in these protected reserves. As food is no problem, tigers do ok. More tigers and nowhere to go, however, equals more competition and more casualties. Those that survive the unslaught often are large and bulky animals. This is why tigers in India, although, possibly, not longer, are a bit heavier than a century ago and this is why more and more don't reach old age. It is not the rule everywhere, but the days of old age are largely past and gone. In the end, when nothing changes, wild African lions and wild Indian tigers will face similar conditions. This will result in similar animals with a similar attitude. The Amurs have more forest and face less competition. For this reason, they, in theory, should be able to reach old age more often. The problem, however, is very long and often severe winters, regular crop failures and mass migrations, 60 000 hunters with a license and, last but not least, wild boars and brown bears. They have to hunt them, because of the lack of large ungulates. As they can't hunt miniature boars and bears all the time (as this will result in energy deficits), they have no option but to hunt quite large animals. Professional hazards. Conclusion On could say that wild male African lions have to survive in a lawless society in which all participants compete for hot spots, food and women. As these objectives can't be realized by individuals, males have no option but to join a team. As soon as possible. Only the very best succeed to get to a pride and breed, but the pressure is such that old age is something they only read about in postcards from captive relatives. Wild male Indian tigers have a bit more room and time, but time is running out in most reserves. The result is quite similar conditions. More often than male lions, male tigers reach 10. One reason is they live in forests and can retreat when they suffer from a cough. Another is tiger society isn't about groups, but individuals. As tigers keep growing for a long time, older males usually are a bit larger than others. In a one-on-one, size counts. Amur tigers have more room and face less humans, but many of them have a hunting license and the result is empty stores for tigers. This is why tigers have no option but to hunt wild boars and bears. All in all, wild male big cats face very tough conditions everywhere. Those that survive are the very best. In Africa, nearly all warriors are prime animals. In India and Russia, you might see a few gladiators with a greyish beard every now and then. Captive big cats are mere parodies of their wild relatives. This is in particular true for tigers. Rewilding is possible, but only if it is done in small steps. The first step is to create a sanctuary with no wild animals close at hand. This will result in many fights. The second step is to introduce a few wild females. The third step is to create a sanctuary at the edge of a reserve with few wild male tigers. It will take a few generations to succeed.
LIONS, TIGERS, FIGHTS AND TRAINERS - IV
j - Clyde Beatty j1 - Career Beatty was (co-)author of 'The big cage', 'Facing the big cats' and 'Jungle Performers'. I bought 'Facing the big cats'. I couldn't find the others, but read parts of these books on the internet. I also printed a number of interviews and posts I found on forums. Last but not least, I talked to those who had read his books (trainers mostly). Beatty (1902-1965) was a big game hunter who later became famous as a trainer. Although he worked with different species, most know him as a lion trainer or a lion 'tamer'. He was famous for his 'fighting act', in which he entered the cage with a whip and a pistol strapped to his side. The act was designed to show his courage and his mastery of the wild beasts, which included lions, tigers, cougars and hyenas. At the height of his fame, the act featured 40 lions and tigers of both sexes. Beatty also was a circus impresario, who owned his own show that later merged with the Cole Bros. Circus to form the Clyde Beatty - Cole Bros. Circus. His 'fighting act' made him the paradigm of a lion 'tamer' for more than one generation (from Answers.com). One doesn't need to read a lot to conclude that Clyde Beatty was a very active and successful businessman who featured in at least 10 movies. He was easily one of the most famous animal trainers and there's no question that he inspired many, one of these Dave Hoover. j2 - Facing the big cats This book, written by Beatty and E. Anthony, also co-author of 'The big cage', is interesting all the way. Apart from many anecdotes, it has lots of observations on big cats and bears that most probably still hold. My guess is most trainers would agree on most points made. I would recommend it to anyone interested in big cats. Beatty's intention was not to 'tame' the big cats, but to control them. To an extent, of course, as he knew his 'wild act' appealed to many (Beatty was very aware of the audience). Although aware of the Jekyll-Hide qualities typical for big cats (they can decide to wreck you one moment and show deep and sincere affections mimutes later), he was prepared to accept the consequences. Beatty knew the big cats could not be completely trusted, but he wrote he loved them (pp. 15). Louis Roth agreed. He selected Beatty to work with bears, because he had noticed he loved animals. This was a feeling that could not be faked, he said (pp. 237-238).
Ok, so it was Roth who trained Beatty and Stark than?
On a side note, in regards to wild lion and tiger ages. I don't think the analogy of human age can be used, since the reason humans live longer now is partly because we no longer live by "survival of the fittest" as well as the fact that medication and diagnosis no longer allows death to take hold of illnesses that are minor. I:E: Common Cold, Chicken Pox, Infection etc. Being able to vaccinate these illnesses as well as treat major illness such as cancers or heart disease, etc. Is what truly allows humans to live longer and longer. But I digress, back to the point. What age did Notch die at? I know you can find claims of tigers making it to 15 or older but realistically that isn't the case. Tigers that we know of are usually in the highest protected areas, even medicated by humans when sick (Ustaad, Machli) and the same goes for lions (the female slashed by the buffalo) etc. These aren't true ages, not saying corbetts tiger wasn't 15 or older or the S. Indian tiger wasn't 20, it can happen. But I believe it can happen in any cat species as long as the conditions are right, like a 100 year old human, it doesn't happen often but it will happen from time to time. Its also very hard to even monitor a tiger for its life, just look at Waghdoh, Shivaji, Sultan etc. We don't know if they are alive or not, Waghodh at least was seen about a year ago so theres a good chance he's alive, but its still all hearsay until we know for sure. I don't doubt that Lions live a hard life, but I don't think they live a harder life than other big cats. If we break down the pros and cons to a lions life compared to a Tiger, Leopard, Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar etc. I think we can find challenges in their lives that they have had to adapt and evolve to. Especially with the wide range of habitat an animal like a leopard, Puma, Jaguar and Tiger can live in. They live everywhere from the tallest peaks to the desert, to snow. If we look at gir lions, we can see that living in india is a different life style than africa, and I'm sure living in certain parts of africa yield very different life styles as well. While lions live a competitive life with other lions, they also live a protected life, their cubs are watched over, food is easily brought down, when its abundant and depending on the area, some places don't see extreme fluctuations in the temperature, some do of course. I guess what I'm saying is this, lifestyle is very subjective, all wild animals live with their own challenges and that is why evolution has adapted certain species to only live in certain places, but I think we can find extreme ages throughout. Its just a matter of luck and health, if both come at the right time, you will unusual results. Either way, tfs @peter, very nicely written, per usual. One last thing: On rewilding big cats, if you have an Instagram I very highly suggest you take a look at "jaguarsintothewild" What they are doing is ground breaking and it looks as though they are successfully reintroducing these cats back. They teach them skills in a controlled environment but they never let the cats interact with humans, they give them large enclosures, enrichment and challenges they'd face in the wild, its still early and we all know it will take time to see if this is truly successful, but its a new tactic that may be beneficial for these cats in the future. Even Varty has had success with his Tiger Canyon project, albeit they live in an enclosed area, no idea how'd they'd fair in the true wild though.
LIONS, TIGERS, FIGHTS AND TRAINERS - V
j2 - Facing the big cats (continuation) More than once, Beatty was forced to find big cats that had escaped. Finding them often wasn't the problem: big cats never lose sight of the food problem and, for this reason, " ... never stray too far from what they know to be a dependable source ... " (pp. 42). Confronting and outbluffing them, however, was a different matter. On his own, he outbluffed a very clever and cunning tigress ('Gracie'); a tough male tiger who had removed the iron bars (...) of his cage ('Pep'); a large male Amur tiger very interested in donkeys ('Monarch'), and the 'brainiest' tiger he ever had ('Big Ross'). This Einstein, on his way to a very interesting hippo, was beaten with a spade when he came for Beatty. He immediately called it a day. Beatty wrote he hit him hard enough to stun him, but not with sufficient force to " ... injure that unusual brain of his that was capable of such brilliant analysis ... " (pp. 63-68). j3 - About lions, tigers and preference When I read the book, I often was puzzled by Beatty's remarks on lions and tigers. Preference is part of human nature, but in his book it is quite outspoken. Compared to the rest of the book, it doesn't fit. My guess is there could have been a bit more to it than preference. A few examples of what I mean. Lions, unlike tigers not involved in escapes, used most of their energy to question those who had the audacity to share the arena with them. Although he didn't actually say it with so many words, the number of fights must have been such that Beatty decided to remove the lionesses from his 'wild act'. Tigresses, however, were not included: " ... Oddly enough, I have never found it necessary to dispense with the tigresses in my act for similar reasons. I use male and female tigers in the arena today as I did thirty years ago. The striped cats seem to have inhibitions that the less self-conscious lions do not have, and they reserve sexual relations for the privacy of the cage ... " (pp. 102). The book was published in 1965. I don't know when it was written, but in the quote Beatty says he had had thirty years of experience. This means he knew that many tigresses used in his mixed act had been killed. It is beyond me why an experienced trainer concluded there was no reason to remove the tigresses from the act, when he knew that dozens had been killed by the brotherhood during the countless fights Beatty had witnessed. I also don't understand why a man who wrote he loved animals never missed an opportunity to inform the public about the number of tigers killed by lions. When he was building a new act, Beatty bought a 6-year old male lion raised in Africa. The one who sold him told Beatty it was a 'monster'. Beatty ignored the warning and used him for the new act. He kept him under control for some years, but the lion later went berserk and killed two tigers. Why, I wonder, buy an adult male lion known for his disposition and use him for an act that has tigresses when you know that male lions will try to kill them at every given opportunity? Those capable of getting to statements on wild and captive tigers agreed that tigresses are very devoted mothers. They are known to be more than just a bit wary regarding strangers showing an interest in the cubs. When I was in the Berlin Tierpark this year, many visitors went to see the four cubs of the Amur tigress. They, however, kept their distance, because all knew the tigress, more than once, had made impressive demonstrations in the last months. On the cage, for this reason, was a strong warning to stay away from the bars. To write, as Beatty did, that a lioness is a better mother than a tigress, is very strange. It is the only remark of that nature I read and it strongly opposes all others. In another chapter, Beatty wrote that tigers, if they don't achieve their purpose in the early stages, " ... give up ... ". This, he continues, is " ... typical for tigers. The lion is different. Once he commits himself to an attack, he is far more determined and much harder to shake off ... " (pp. 184). The trainers I interviewed, however, agreed that attacks of tigers usually are not the result of impulses. Many, if not all, are planned. This is the reason they often are very reluctant to abandon an attack. Tigers attacking other animals often do so because they dislike them. This observation, oddly enough, was confirmed by Beatty when he wrote that the fued between male tigers 'Prince' and 'Frisco' developed into " ... the bitterest fued between two animals I can recall ... " (pp. 220). One more to close this paragraph. Beatty, more than once, wrote male tigers, apart from a few exceptions in which they had a distinct advantage (pp. 286), are no match for male lions. The reason is a male tiger " ... does not seem to have the lions capacity for calm analysis and appraisal. This puts him at a disadvantage in a fight with a lion ... " (pp. 288). In a fair fight between a male lion and a male tiger, the lion " ... would win through a combination of superior power and tactics designed to get the tiger to wear himself out. The lion would fight calculatingly, and one of his objectives would be to conserve his strength ... " (pp. 289). Maybe Beatty had exceptional lions, but to state, in a book at that, that a male tiger, as a general rule, doesn't stand a chance in a fight with a male lion is quite exceptional. j4 - Contradictions Nearly all trainers I interviewed had worked with bears and big cats. Most thought that bears, although they overplay their hand at times, are very intelligent and tough animals. They also were considered very capable in a one-on-one. Maybe even more so, I later concluded after reading the interviews again. Judging from the chapter in which they feature ('Before they trusted me with lions and tigers', pp. 236-260), Beatty definitely agreed. But he also wrote they, to put it mildly, would struggle against tigers. Make that tigresses. In his mixed act, he used four Russian brown bears. They entered the arena before the tigers did and would often reach out for them: " ... Not until they were clawed a few times did my Russian quartet become aware of the dangerous potentialities of the animals they had treated so lightly. The bears and tigers grew to hate one another. There was a continual growling and snarling when they were in the arena together. Bill (a large male Russian brown bear) was becoming a moody Russian by reason of three successive paw-cloutings and nippings administered by Nellie, a tigress that had no use for bears and made no bones about it. Bill never had a chance to get back at Nellie, but he had a fine opportunity one day to avenge himself on Lil, the other tiger in the act, and he took advantage of it with surprising speed and effectiveness ... " (pp 249). Tigress Lil, as a result of a mistake of a cage boy, toppled from her seat to the floor. Bill immediately took advantage of the situation: " ... Needless to say, the bear had a tremendous advantage in this brief encounter, but the occurrence astonished me none the less. While Bill was sure to have a big early edge when he attacked under the circumstances described, the chances were a hundred to one against his quickly getting that unbreakable hold. If he didn't succeed, he was a goner, for tigers are lightning fast and Lil would have quicky brought her claws and teeth into play and made an end of that over-ambitious bear ... " (pp. 249). So what do we have? A trainer who had worked with many bear species amazed to see a large male Russian brown bear able to survive an encounter with a tigress. An encounter that was a non-encounter because the bear had every advantage one can think of. He attacked her when she had crashed to the floor and got a hold that was good enough to kill her. If he hadn't succeeded, he, judging from the quote, would have been " ... a goner ... " (pp. 249). So now, suddenly, the 'lightning speed' of tigers, according to an experienced bear trainer, would have been instrumental in that it most probably would have resulted in a quick end for an animal considered as tough as any of the male big cats, if not more so. But the 'lightning speed' speed of tigers made no difference in a fight with a lion, as tigers have no clue about 'tactics' and 'calm analysis'. Although he strongly suggests that even a tigress is more than able to cope with a big male brown bear in a one-on-one (which counts if we know that Beatty was experienced with bears) and although he underlines it was a freak incident in which the bear had a 'tremendous advantage', Beatty presents the death of the tigress, disadvantaged by a mistake of one of his cage boys (meaning Beatty didn't take his responsabilities as a trainer very serious), as something worthy enough to include in his book. Am I the only one who noticed double standards (in more than one way) of a sloppy man (not checking the work of the cage boy) contradicting himself on more than once occasion? A man who also indulged in creating circumstances not favouring tigers (see the previous paragraph) and, on top of that, took his time to describe, in detail, how a tigress severely disadvantaged by his slops met with her end? Another tigress? I can only get to 'new dimensions in preference', but before we start on conclusions I propose to go to those who, experiencewise, might have compared to Beatty. 
Thats wonderful write up and conclusion on Beatty. We certainly do not know about animals condition when they fought but overall As a trainer Beatty is questaionable
Beatty is a perfect example of the sociopaths that work in places that hate. For example, there is people that work in veterinaries because they hate animals and try to get the worst damage to them, and other people that hate kids and work in daycare facilities just to abuse them (not only sexually, but in physical and mental ways).
It is more than obvious that Clyde Beatty suffered of that same problem, he definitely hated tigers, and based on his books, he was fascinating talking about the dead of several of these animals. His "love" for lions is tangible but like many hard-core fans, it takes him to a new level, even causing the dead of an animal that is under his care. His words lack any humility and regret.
I will go on to post about possibly the greatest Animal trainer I have read about
Louis Roth: These are my notes from the book I read about him "40 years with jungle killers" -Louis Roth trained Beatty, Nelson, Stark, and tons of others (lots of Capt'ns and lots of other women surprisingly) -he said "you will hear it said that a tiger can kill a lion, or vice versa. In my experience I have seen all theories exploded." -then goes on to talk about tigers killing lions, leopard killing a large tiger, lion killing a polar bear etc. -He says a polar bear is usually the toughest, and can usually defeat either big cat. -Polar bears fight more with their mouth compared to grizzlies and brown bears who prefer to grapple and shove on two legs -Tigers are quicker and more treacherous -tigers fight on their backs more and lions prefer not to -Had a wild lion named leo who he taught to wrestle with him -had a tiger escape over a 16' wall and proceeded to kill as many goats as he could from the pen next to his, the men tried to remove one goat and the tiger was so tenacious it was latched on to the goat and hoisted half way up the 16' wall by just his mouth before he let go. He was the reason that Roth had to put a tarp over his ring. -had 3 lions in one pen and put a tiger in the other, the 3 lions roared morning till night trying to get at the tiger, until one lion ripped a whole in the partition and stuck its head through only to have the tiger snatch its head in its mouth and wouldn't let go until they had to stick a 2 x 4 in its jaws and pry them open. The lion was left a bloody mess. -Lions will slap their tail, roar and stomp when they are unhappy. A tiger is impossible to tell, they will attack out of no where. -Both big cats are easily deterred from attacking when you have something load or different in front of them. They both seem to be unsure of new things -Wild cats are far easier to train than captive cats, Not why you would expect. Roth goes on to say "I asked my old teacher if he could train wild cats, he said he could" "He then says that his teacher said you can get them to balance, jump through hoops etc.. but they will always be aggressive and wild, they never loose there fear of humans and they are always dangerous, that is why he thinks they are easier to train" "he said when you are in the ring with a wild cat, you never are lax, you always no this animal is dangerous and will kill you in a second, with a captive cat, they will purr and be your best friend for years, and still they can snap at any second" -he said most cats hate each other but can be taught to tolerate each other fairly easy, but cats and bears do go insane and loose all control from time to time -he raised a goat and male lion together and when the lion would perform, the goat would blead loudly until his friend was returned to him, when the goat was let out to graze the lion would roar for his friend. The goat got a mysterious disease and died, the lion would let no body near, when they finally got the goat carcass out, the lion was so sad, they found a new goat and rubbed the smell of the old goat all over the new goat twin, and the lion wanted to play with the goat so bad, until finally the goat was comfortable around the lion, they finally let them in the same cage, the lion smelled the goat, looked around confused and sad, then smacked the goat to the floor, bit its neck and killed it. He gives tons of credit to Mabel stark, who he calls "fearless" and says she has been attacked by the lions and tigers a few times and still continues to train both big cats with no fear. Calls her the greatest female big cat trainer he has ever seen. -He needed a black leopard or jag (forget) to fight a Tiger for a movie, he didn't have a black leopard/jag so they had a smaller lioness who was next to this tiger and for whatever reason, they hated eachother (so roth thought) they were always trying to get at each other, so Roth thought they would be good for the movie and would probably just go right after each other. So they spray painted the lioness black and let her go in to the tigers pen and waited with film in hand waiting for a violent fight only to have what they thought was a hatred between these two specific cats turn into a absolute love fest. All they wanted was to play and wrestle with eachother which apparently is all they would do from the moment the met. What this book opened my eyes to was this, these big cats were sold to the trainers mentioned above and taken to the US, where they were bred time and time again, it might be the beginning of the N. American Tiger and Inbred lion problem in the US today, sad that it turned into a free for all. It seems as though big cats and wild animals in general were an economical stimulate back then, they were an industry, animal rights were non existent. Much like womens rights or race rights, but like them, those rights were slowly given and so are animals rights. It gives me hope, I look forward to the progress of humans as a species.
I will next post about Hans Brick via Book scans from his book
"The Nature of the Beast" I will only post about Lions and Tigers and the similarities and differences between them in terms of training. Bare with me while I get the scans ready Part 1 Training Lions  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Cont'd
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Cont'd
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author That's it for Lions, I will post "Training Tigers" later today.
Part 2
Training Tigers  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
cont'd
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Wheewwww, all done. Hope you enjoy 
@Pckts
Sorry but I don't like and respect the Hans Brick's book. What he wrote is completely biased towards tiger, and I can't stand the persons who are describing the lion as being a big cat and the tiger as being the "super" big cat, a much more physically performing (and fascinating of course) big cat than the lion. A few exemples: The tiger's lungs are much bigger than the lion's ones (#44, beginning of the chapter 7): what is this crap ? Did he make any measure ? That is an assertion not argumented. In wild the tiger is much more an ambush predator than the lion which lives in open plains. Thus the tiger is much faster than the lion in the first twenty meters of running, the lion being the fastest over hundred meters (Schaller who had studied both felids in wild during the sixties and seventies). But nobody else has pretended such an assertion. p.65: "the male lion is a blusterer and his roar may mean very little... and the roar of a tiger is the most terrifing sound in the nature": crap. Of course he is allowed to prefer the tiger, but this author is constantly denigrating the lion when he confronts the both felids. Another exemples ?: "the lion is the prototyp of all henpecks when he is with a lioness in season". OK men you have understood, this "author" being a full anthropomorphic "zoologist" doesn't like the lions. I completely discredit him, in my own opinion this man is a tacky one... That is easy to bash the lion, almost all people like to do that (the lion is ridiculous and the tiger is always the most performing supercat you can never imagine)... That is always free and never argumented. Truly, who can take this "teamer" seriously ? Not I. When Peter, in this thread, spoke about Hagenbeck, this teamer was, by far, much more credible and interesting. Yes, I admit to prefer the lion, but I want to be honest, objective. When the forumer you have banned ("Counter") bashed the tiger confronted the lion I found that completely ridiculous and biased for evident reasons... But I would expect similar reactions when and if conversely. |
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