There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---

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Animal trainers

Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-30-2018, 06:12 AM by peter )

BEWARE OF THE TIGER 

This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.

One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.

Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.

In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.         

Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.

I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.

Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate. 

The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.

Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.

I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so. 

Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
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United States paul cooper Offline
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This is the most bizarre thing i have ever seen from Clyde Beatty. Punishes a lion? This guy is kinda nuts..

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-28-2018, 11:54 AM by peter )

MABLE STARK

Review from 2003 (The Guardian). Interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/apr/05/fiction.features
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-04-2018, 10:34 AM by peter )

BIG CAT TRAINERS

- Randy Miller: https://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/interviews/a35388/lion-trainer-randy-miller-interview/
- Thomas Chipperfield: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/wildlife/11402840/Why-lions-attack-their-trainers.html

- Information about attacks and fatalities in the US 1990-2014 (M.A. Smith, 2018): https://pethelpful.com/exotic-pets/big-cat-attacks-USA
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United States paul cooper Offline
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Chubby Guilfoyle, one of the main guys who trained clyde beatty:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Full newspaper:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/wildanim...php?id=496


*This image is copyright of its original author
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United States paul cooper Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-22-2018, 09:20 AM by Rishi )

Clyde beattys lions and tigers.

Note clyde beatty is 5 feet, 5.5 inches tall. Compare him to the tigers.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author





*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
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China Smilodon-Rex Offline
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(09-20-2018, 11:53 AM)paul cooper Wrote: Clyde beattys lions and tigers from the retard.

Note clyde beatty is 5 feet, 5.5 inches tall. Compare him to the tigers.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author





*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
Betty's captive lions are Nubian lions according to the film's lines by himself, while the tigers are Bengal tigers and Sumatran tigers
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China Smilodon-Rex Offline
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(05-30-2018, 06:04 AM)peter Wrote: BEWARE OF THE TIGER 

This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.

One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.

Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.

In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.         

Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.

I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.

Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate. 

The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.

Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.

I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so. 

Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
Peter,Have you noticed that many captive lion's sizes are small, even compared with female lions and tigers, like this

*This image is copyright of its original author

We don't know what the true reason is, as a matter of fact, in the wild——male lions are bigger half of than lioness as usual,  their bodies look longer and taller too, but in the captivity many male lions look smaller and shorter

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author
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United States paul cooper Offline
Banned

More on Guilfoyle's act, he mixed lions and tigers together:

"Manuel's father met John C. "Chubby" Guilfoyle who was a first-class trainer even after he lost his arm in the 1920's during a lion/tiger mix-up which went really bad."

http://bronsbilestacion.blogspot.com/2016/04/yours-with-roar-manuel-king.html
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United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

(09-20-2018, 05:35 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 06:04 AM)peter Wrote: BEWARE OF THE TIGER 

This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.

One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.

Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.

In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.         

Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.

I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.

Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate. 

The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.

Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.

I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so. 

Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
Peter,Have you noticed that many captive lion's sizes are small, even compared with female lions and tigers, like this

*This image is copyright of its original author

We don't know what the true reason is, as a matter of fact, in the wild——male lions are bigger half of than lioness as usual,  their bodies look longer and taller too, but in the captivity many male lions look smaller and shorter

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

No, lions are plenty large in captivity, they just tend to be more stout with less definition compared to their wild counterparts. I have seen some gigantic Lioness in captivity though, much larger than any Lioness I have seen in the wild.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States paul cooper Offline
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Clyde Beatty.


*This image is copyright of its original author
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China Smilodon-Rex Offline
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(09-21-2018, 02:29 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(09-20-2018, 05:35 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 06:04 AM)peter Wrote: BEWARE OF THE TIGER 

This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.

One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.

Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.

In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.         

Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.

I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.

Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate. 

The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.

Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.

I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so. 

Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
Peter,Have you noticed that many captive lion's sizes are small, even compared with female lions and tigers, like this

*This image is copyright of its original author

We don't know what the true reason is, as a matter of fact, in the wild——male lions are bigger half of than lioness as usual,  their bodies look longer and taller too, but in the captivity many male lions look smaller and shorter

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

No, lions are plenty large in captivity, they just tend to be more stout with less definition compared to their wild counterparts. I have seen some gigantic Lioness in captivity though, much larger than any Lioness I have seen in the wild.
Some captive male lions are really small, but also have some really large one, the Lioness in the captivity can be growing bigger exactly. In the captivity, animal's growth will be changed
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United States paul cooper Offline
Banned

1930, Trudy the tigress attacks and rips beattys right side from the shoulder to the waist.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19300426&id=3iEbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NUsEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4572,2186929&hl=en
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India brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****

http://www.circopedia.org/Gunther_Gebel-Williams 
 
My favorite circus animal trainer, Gunther Gebel-Williams
 
From 1968 to 2001, Gunther Gebel-Williams was, in the United States, the most celebrated circus performer of his generation—a true media star whose only equivalents in the twentieth century had been Alfredo Codona and Lilian Leitzel. An extremely talented and charismatic performer, he was also, for circus enthusiasts and circus professionals around the world, one of the greatest animal trainers of the second half of the twentieth century.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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Canada Kingtheropod Offline
Bigcat Expert
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( This post was last modified: 09-28-2018, 12:57 AM by Kingtheropod )

(09-21-2018, 06:29 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:
(09-21-2018, 02:29 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(09-20-2018, 05:35 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:
(05-30-2018, 06:04 AM)peter Wrote: BEWARE OF THE TIGER 

This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded.

One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now.

Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him.

In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans.         

Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat.

I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are very close in a number of ways. When they start, they have the money needed. The problem is a lack of overview and, in quite a few cases, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice.

Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I know are interested in animals. Always were and always will be. They know about the plight of wild animals in general and big cats in particular. They want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate. 

The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions.

Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between stress, clumsyness and something else.

I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. The know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. They learned about the world of the lion. All other species are prey. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so. 

Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started.
Peter,Have you noticed that many captive lion's sizes are small, even compared with female lions and tigers, like this

*This image is copyright of its original author

We don't know what the true reason is, as a matter of fact, in the wild——male lions are bigger half of than lioness as usual,  their bodies look longer and taller too, but in the captivity many male lions look smaller and shorter

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

No, lions are plenty large in captivity, they just tend to be more stout with less definition compared to their wild counterparts. I have seen some gigantic Lioness in captivity though, much larger than any Lioness I have seen in the wild.
Some captive male lions are really small, but also have some really large one, the Lioness in the captivity can be growing bigger exactly. In the captivity, animal's growth will be changed
I think there is more variation among captive lions compared to wild ones. The captive environment allows some lions to obtain very large size (over 270 kg) compared to wild lions which very rarely obtain such sizes. As long as a captive cat is fed well, he can achieve such weights, compared to wild cats where getting such food is not so easy. In the wild, small lions are more likely to be killed in territorial fights also, so it makes sense that you can also see more small lions in captivity too because small lions can live to adult hood in captivity compared to small lions in the wild that will end up getting killed. Hence the reason for greater extremes for captive cats.
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Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

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