Animal trainers

[Shadow]

(12-21-2018, 07:19 AM)Kathlee111 Wrote: I will try to answer all your questions the best I can, it may take me awhile as I have limited time online right now. I will start with my background and then talk about the individual cats. This is my standard background info that I copy/ pasted here,  but I will go into a little more detail and say my mentors were Ron Whitfield and Wayne Ragen..Wayne Ragen, who both had alot of experience in mixed acts. Whitfield trained all kinds of animals but Wayne was my primary teacher/ mentor. 

I worked in a traveling educational lion/tiger program and  I also lived with my cats on a ranch in the off season. We were a very small outfit with five tigers and seven lions. Working with Big Cats was the fufillment of my childhood dream, and I was very lucky to have great mentors; without their tutelage, I'm sure I wouldn't have survived. It took serious work and focused study to get next to these animals. I was a volunteer, then an apprentice, for many years. I had seen a lion / tiger show as a kid and knew I would have to work with these animals or die trying.  It was years before I got a break, but I was ready. 

As wonderful as every day was, it was terrifying at times. It was also hard work , around the clock. You have no personal life!
 Wild animals cannot be tamed. They can be trained, through positive reinforcement and over time, to do simple behaviors on cue. We mainly worked behaviors the cats would do naturally- sit, stay,  lie down. It helped when doing health checks, and for our own interaction with the cats. They liked the attention and the stimulation was good for them. But, big cats are unpredictable, and at any time can go off script.  Attacks can be life threatening, and injuries were common. I never trusted them, even though I raised them from tiny cubs. They tolerated me , bonded with me, and expected me to stay out of their space when they tired of me. They could go from affection to aggression in an instant.

I loved and treasured our cats, and we treated them like royalty. Our lives revolved around their needs. The ranch had an enormous lake for the tigers to swim and a grassy island in the center for them to play. All the tigers had their own separate pools in their enclosures as well. We walked the cats regularly in the desert, and we interacted with them daily in their very large enclosures. They were fed the very best diet and supplements, plus an abundance of treats. They had a great vet, who made regular check -up visits,  but we never medicated them or surgically altered them. (One of our female tigers was an exception; she had an oviohysterectomy at UCDavis to relieve her from bad heat cycles.) They were healthy and happy. Ultimately, our lions and tigers were respected for the wild animals that they were. We expected them to act like lions and tigers. We kept them safe from outside disturbances.  We did not allow anyone who was not an invited guest or friend to the ranch to see them, either. It was not a public attraction.

We knew the risks,  and we knew the kind of injuries the cats were capable of inflicting. I'd be lying if I said there were not moments when I was scared shitless, wondering why I didn't just get a normal life. But I loved every minute with my animals, and never had a serious injury. I had some scary encounters, but I knew when to get away and sometimes, I just got lucky.
I owe my life to my mentors, our exceptionally smart tigers, and a lot of good luck. I can take credit for not showing how scared I was sometimes,  and for not doing anything totally stupid. There were times I did screw up,  and I always paid the price. My tigers mainly and my lion were not forgiving of my mistakes. Their lessons were painful. Chaos will happen,  despite my being well- prepared and well- informed. I had studied behavior for years before actually working hands -on with live cats, yet I knew-  you have to be ready for anything.

My experience with the cats was what I had always wanted in my life.  It was an inflexible goal, and I am incredibly lucky and proud I got to achieve it. I miss my cats every day,  and I see them frequently in my dreams at night. They were beautiful. Life with them was everything I had hoped it would be.and more, and for that I will always be grateful.

Heh, just to have some humor here too, I have to ask, that did you sometimes learned new skills while being there with animals? Like you can see this one trainer on this video at 0:33. I bet, that he didn´t know earlier how good climber he is It´s all about motivating, also people can be trained to new skills in world record times, when trainers are convincing enough..... :) 

For sure not a funny moment at the time it happened, but maybe today this guy already can smile too at least a little bit.... But as you said, everything can change in a moment to total chaos. Reply

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[Kathlee111]

I definately learned the most about myself and also discovered new skills when I was put to the test.Te video you shared is a great example of how this can happen. Good point!  I can go more into detail later, and give some examples.  I wanted to start answering the questions I was asked,  to give a bit more of my  background  and describe my cats first, I did have lions and tigers both. 
When I started my work with Wayne he had 6 lionesses and 3 tigers ( bengal, all female) I added 2 Siberians ( male Saigon and female Leia) and later, Tsavo, male lion.  I was hands on with all of the cats I added as cubs as well as with Bombay, one of the bengal tigers who was 4 when i began going into her enclosure with her . I could go in with all the cats ( except one lioness) but Wayne had to be with me, and i only trained the cats i was hands on with. I fed/ cleaned and cared for all of them,  and did narration for Wayne for his show when I wasnt working my own cats. Wayne had a traveling act, mostly educational, and he had been in Circus Vargas for over 15 years before that. I also spent time learning from Ron Whitfield, both at Six Flags in Vallejo and at his ranch where he housed his lions and tigers. (He is  absolutely one of the best animal trainers in the world, in my opinion. He is incredible)Wayne was equally remarkable and I was very lucky to learn from them. I dont like to answer questions about them to respect their privacy, but I can certainly talk about what they taught me, which was a lot! And there was always something to learn every day when you work with big cats. They are full of surprises. More later, to be continued, I know I have many of the above questions still to answer Reply

[Shadow]

(12-23-2018, 02:32 PM)Kathlee111 Wrote: I definately learned the most about myself and also discovered new skills when I was put to the test.Te video you shared is a great example of how this can happen. Good point!  I can go more into detail later, and give some examples.  I wanted to start answering the questions I was asked,  to give a bit more of my  background  and describe my cats first, I did have lions and tigers both. 
When I started my work with Wayne he had 6 lionesses and 3 tigers ( bengal, all female) I added 2 Siberians ( male Saigon and female Leia) and later, Tsavo, male lion.  I was hands on with all of the cats I added as cubs as well as with Bombay, one of the bengal tigers who was 4 when i began going into her enclosure with her . I could go in with all the cats ( except one lioness) but Wayne had to be with me, and i only trained the cats i was hands on with. I fed/ cleaned and cared for all of them,  and did narration for Wayne for his show when I wasnt working my own cats. Wayne had a traveling act, mostly educational, and he had been in Circus Vargas for over 15 years before that. I also spent time learning from Ron Whitfield, both at Six Flags in Vallejo and at his ranch where he housed his lions and tigers. (He is  absolutely one of the best animal trainers in the world, in my opinion. He is incredible)Wayne was equally remarkable and I was very lucky to learn from them. I dont like to answer questions about them to respect their privacy, but I can certainly talk about what they taught me, which was a lot! And there was always something to learn every day when you work with big cats. They are full of surprises. More later, to be continued, I know I have many of the above questions still to answer

Yes, just write in your own pace, I just have sometimes seen this video and I simply can´t help grinning every time when I see that trainer up there while knowing, that he survived and unharmed after all :) To be honest, maybe sometimes more than just grinning But I have to give some credit for this climber. They have white pants there and as far as I can say, he leaves that cage with clean pants! :) That was after all situation where no-one would like to be. Staying calm helps you only to certain point, there are too many variables and big part is pure luck, that do someone get out of that kind of situation unharmed or not. So it is about minimizing risks, impossible to have none. Reply

[Kathlee111]

I think I answered question #1 about working a mixed act ( yes) so I will start with #2 , the question about which cat I found to be "most dangerous. " Not to sidestep, but I found them both to be equally dangerous once they were triggered or in a bad mood. They can kill a human with such ease that there is always danger, and one was not less dangerous than the other. Having said that, there were some general traits specific to each species which could be considered important,  and individual character differences that varied from cat to cat. Their personalities played a role in whether I felt more or less comfortable around them. 
Lions seemed to me to be lazier and more indifferent to outside stimulus than tigers, so as long as you stay out of their way, they wont notice you. ( this is only for people  they know well) but once you pique their interest or wrath,  they are relentless. Tigers are more aware of their surroundings and more responsive to outside influences , they are more on the alert than lions. They are watchful and wary and very selective. They pick their battles carefully but once in, they are a fury. Lots of energy, high tension with tigers , they like to be comfortable and sometimes that means solitude.  They dont like being stared at by certain people, and will take pains to show it. They can hate certain individuals on sight and it is unchangeable.  Lions don't care enough to bother unless you piss them off. Then they are mad and at their most dangerous. My cats all differed. Bombay was always calm with me, never annoyed with me and she tolerated alot before getting mad at others.  Saigon mellowed as he aged but was a bit of a curious spaz thru his first 6 years or so. So was his smarter sister, Malia. Tsavo,  my male lion , was pretty smart ( not as smart as Bombay) but a bit of a bully and a showhorse, he liked showing off his roar and mane and general good looks, very proud of himself. He had some sulky teen angst around 3 or 4 when he was moodiest. It was tiresome and intimidating for me at same time.
Intelligence depended on individual cat, not species, in my opinion.  ( question #3)
We determined subspecies by breeder , we trusted them and didnt breed our own cats, Wayne and I. It wasn't a concern to know percentages. We went on breeders word. ( question # 4) ..
more later.... Reply

[Smilodon-Rex]

(12-23-2018, 02:32 PM)Kathlee111 Wrote: I definately learned the most about myself and also discovered new skills when I was put to the test.Te video you shared is a great example of how this can happen. Good point!  I can go more into detail later, and give some examples.  I wanted to start answering the questions I was asked,  to give a bit more of my  background  and describe my cats first, I did have lions and tigers both. 
When I started my work with Wayne he had 6 lionesses and 3 tigers ( bengal, all female) I added 2 Siberians ( male Saigon and female Leia) and later, Tsavo, male lion.  I was hands on with all of the cats I added as cubs as well as with Bombay, one of the bengal tigers who was 4 when i began going into her enclosure with her . I could go in with all the cats ( except one lioness) but Wayne had to be with me, and i only trained the cats i was hands on with. I fed/ cleaned and cared for all of them,  and did narration for Wayne for his show when I wasnt working my own cats. Wayne had a traveling act, mostly educational, and he had been in Circus Vargas for over 15 years before that. I also spent time learning from Ron Whitfield, both at Six Flags in Vallejo and at his ranch where he housed his lions and tigers. (He is  absolutely one of the best animal trainers in the world, in my opinion. He is incredible)Wayne was equally remarkable and I was very lucky to learn from them. I dont like to answer questions about them to respect their privacy, but I can certainly talk about what they taught me, which was a lot! And there was always something to learn every day when you work with big cats. They are full of surprises. More later, to be continued, I know I have many of the above questions still to answer

  Did you trained other animals such as elephants and bears or not ? I'm interested Reply

[Kathlee111]

Hi I did not have any experiences training other animals , just lions and tigers. Would have loved to work with elephants but gotta admit they are pretty intimidating.  I hear they are so smart. My mentor worked elephants. Reply

[Kathlee111]

And I know I have not answered all Peters questions yet, perhaps he or someone else could ask me  the remaining questions they may have? Or I could pick up where I left off,  not sure where that was, but will check. .. Reply

[paul cooper]

Katherine, it looks like you were answering Pckt's questions:

1. Did you ever work a mixed cat act and if so, what were your most notable experiences with it?
2.Which cat did you find the most dangerous to work with and for what reasons?
3.Do you notice intelligence differences between the species?
4.How would you determine which sub species of cat you have? I.E. Did you have stud books available, breeder backstories or other means?
5.Which cat do you consider the largest and who was the largest cat you had period and what was his weight?
6.How many big cats have you worked with and which species? Reply

[Shadow]

(01-07-2019, 12:10 PM)Kathlee111 Wrote: And I know I have not answered all Peters questions yet, perhaps he or someone else could ask me  the remaining questions they may have? Or I could pick up where I left off,  not sure where that was, but will check. ..

I am curious about it, that what experiences were maybe most memorable for you from that time, when you were interacting with these animals on daily bases, something most surprising maybe.... you know, there for sure are some situations, which come back to your thoughts more often than others. Maybe something, which also made you learn something unpredictable about these animals. Reply

[Shadow]

In this footage at 3:05 things start to go in unexpected way. Then it looks like, that these people would have had a chance to get out of there at about 3:25 if making calm retreat to the door. 

I can understand, that this man hoped to get full control again, but it would be nice to hear what do you think, Kathlee111? I understand, that these animals are valuable etc. but is that really worth risking own life in this kind of situation? It is very hard to do everything "right" when there is a real danger like here, but I am interested to hear, that how did you train and prepare to unexpected? Was it told to try to do everything you can to calm down animal or try to make as controlled retreat to the door and out of the cage as possible? Maybe here happened something outside view what couldn´t be seen...

I have myself worked in security (with people) and I have been in many dangerous situations and one thing helping in the real situation is training and being mentally prepared to it, that unexpected things can and DO happen. I guess, that same goes with wild animals, you have to be ready all the time. So when watching this video, I can understand that mistakes happen. It is easy to be smart afterwards, but of course situations like this are good material to learn for others.

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[Kathlee111]

Couldnt get through the whole video without making a comment, will.watch the rest later. 
This trainer is unwise,  in my opinion. He is taking ridiculous risk staying in there with such a severe injury. Cats will KEEP COMING FOR YOU especially if youre injured. They may give you a chance at first to retreat so you are stupid if you dont take it. 
Also, did you notice two of these lions were badly limping.  In pain from something, i suspect he beats the shit out of his cats. They all fear/dislike him. One cat has pinned ears the whole time and another runs to his pedestal- he is afraid. They dont run unless provoked or fearful . This trainer is a hard one, very old school. Its not at all my way but i get it, i just dont like it and it didnt work for me, of course, my male lion and I had problems. Male lions are tough to deal with, stubborn and when angered, a force to be reckoned with . Unstoppable. But they are also lazy and prefer to do the minimum as they age. I feel bad as i watch this, where/ when/ who is this? Is it old i hope? I always prepared mentally for the worst in my mind but i couldnt let it distract me around the cats. I knew what they could do to me and i dealt with any fear long before i went in with them. Sometimes when faced with an angry cat my reaction was anger, which helped me push thru and keep my head on straight. Anger pushed away my fear so i could get away after standing  ground.  This attack on the video is very serious, the trainer got lucky in the first charge to get up/ away. He should have left immediately. These cats dont like him and dont seem healthy, they are skittish and pissy. Ill watch the rest of the video and write more later. Im sorry if this is all over the place, Im writing stream of thought. Reply

[Kathlee111]

Also, to answer your questions, yes I interacted with my cats daily, it is risky to take time off because you need that bond of familiarity and routine, no surprises or absences.  The cats dont like it when youre unpredictable or unreliable . They know what the times of the day mean, when its feeding time, fast time, walk time , etc. They expected me to be there. I have many experiences i can share , like my first time going from shit sweeping apprentice to tiger handler- that was awesome. Standing next to a full grown tiger without a cage between you is the most unreal experience ever- i waited my whole life for it. Bombay was my favorite tiger and we had a strong relationship,  the best i had. I was so happy the day i started going into her enclosure and arena with her. I was amazed at how different a tiger looks when its just you and them,  they will check you out for sure. Bombay sniffed me like she always did, gave me a head boop along my leg and then plopped down at my feet within 5 minutes of me.  going in. She chuffed for a minute and let me run my hands over her back and head,  i was eager to actually touch her , not just thru the bars! She fell asleep and so i just sat with her for awhile. Paradise! It was a pivotal moment. Reply

[paul cooper]

Look here. This is bobby the tiger who he threw ammonia on his face to before he was killed by a lion in the big cage fight. It wasnt his animal, it was Louis Roths. Beatty said the tiger was nervous and bit him and hurt him really bad, bleeding, etc.. This was obviously before the tiger died. Doesnt sound like beatty liked this tiger very much.

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[paul cooper]

(12-10-2015, 11:20 AM)peter Wrote: The trainers I interviewed, however, agreed that attacks of tigers usually are not the result of impulses. Many, if not all, are planned. This is the reason they often are very reluctant to abandon an attack. Tigers who attack other animals often do so because they really dislike them. This observation, oddly enough, was confirmed by Beatty when he wrote that the fued between male tigers 'Prince' and 'Frisco' developed into " ... the bitterest fued between two animals I can recall ... " (pp. 220).

Hey peter, Beatty has made the same observation another time (in one of his books, Jungle Performers). He talked about two tigers, Ganges and Rajah, who hated each other so much that for 5 years they constantly wanted to kill each other and didnt fight any other animals - beatty says that they were going to kill each other and made sure they are kept far apart:

"Some raging feuds between animals have endured unbroken for years. Two of my toughest tigers, Ganges and Rajah, feuded from 1936 and 1941, hating each other so viciously that they had no time left to fight other animals, except on rare occasions. Realizing that an uninterrupted battle between might well result in death for one, I devised numerous ways to keep them apart"

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[peter]

(03-25-2019, 08:01 AM)paul cooper Wrote:

(12-10-2015, 11:20 AM)peter Wrote: The trainers I interviewed, however, agreed that attacks of tigers usually are not the result of impulses. Many, if not all, are planned. This is the reason they often are very reluctant to abandon an attack. Tigers who attack other animals often do so because they really dislike them. This observation, oddly enough, was confirmed by Beatty when he wrote that the fued between male tigers 'Prince' and 'Frisco' developed into " ... the bitterest fued between two animals I can recall ... " (pp. 220).

Hey peter, Beatty has made the same observation another time (in one of his books, Jungle Performers). He talked about two tigers, Ganges and Rajah, who hated each other so much that for 5 years they constantly wanted to kill each other and didnt fight any other animals - beatty says that they were going to kill each other and made sure they are kept far apart:

"Some raging feuds between animals have endured unbroken for years. Two of my toughest tigers, Ganges and Rajah, feuded from 1936 and 1941, hating each other so viciously that they had no time left to fight other animals, except on rare occasions. Realizing that an uninterrupted battle between might well result in death for one, I devised numerous ways to keep them apart"

*This image is copyright of its original author

Yes, fueds seem to be typical for both captive and wild tigers. In this respect, lions seem to be different. In order to find out a bit more about the essentials of lions and tigers, one needs to contact experienced trainers. Kathlee could be a good start. She's not only a former trainer, but also a member and interested in interaction. Furthermore, she probably talked lion with other experienced trainers.

Another way to find good information is to read. Although the internet has a few disadvantages, you can find a lot of articles on big cats written by keepers, handlers, trainers, vets and researchers. As they're often based on years of experience or research, most of them are very informative. If you want to know about the behavior of captive big cats and bears, my advice is to start reading. If you print anything you find and study it, the result will be specific knowledge. Trainers, on the other hand, are specialists in case-studies. If a trainer senses you really tried to get to a bit of knowledge, chances are he or she will be interested in a chat.

LION PROJECT

Two decades ago, I often visited a big cat facility not too far away from Amsterdam. These visits often compared to work. I measured and weighed quite a few big cats, assisted vets and wrote a number of papers on what I found over the years. I also co-headed a number of projects. One of them was the so-called 'lion project'.

The aim of the owner of the facility was to rewild lions. He invested in a private reserve and asked me to report on the differences between wild and captive lions. He also asked me how it could be done. This was well before rahabilitation projects were started. In the two years I studied lions, I talked to hunters, tour organizers, wildlife biologists, investors, handlers, trainers, trainers, film makers, directors of training facilities and skull specialists and organized countless meetings.

Here's what I learned.

LIONS

Lions prides are not run by male coalitions, but related females. As a result of social life, competition is engrained in the soul of all wild lions. Yes, I think they have a soul. Emotions are expressions of the soul. In animals, emotions are vital. They affect behavior more than all other factors combined. Everyone with personal experience told me that animals are more involved in emotions than, say, humans. They know about deep feeling. 

In the department of emotions, male lions could top the table. More than other big cats, they are subject to sudden, often violent, mood changes. As a rule, they immediately respond with everything they have. For a male lion, any confrontation resulting from a sudden change of mood can develop into a now-or-never. When one male starts, others often quickly follow.   

In social predators like lions, expression and aggression are important. When two males clash, there's always a fight. Although brief in most cases, there will be battle and in a battle courage and power count. This is why it isn't easy to train acts that have a number of male lions. Lion trainers told me it's not enough to love them. Violence is part of life.  

In a mixed act that has more than one male lion, problems never are far away. In order to prevent a brawl that can get out of hand, tigers and bears often try to get out of harm's way. The reason is a different upbringing. Male lions do now-or-never, whereas solitary predators often solve problems in a different way. In tigers, moods are less important than in lions. The trainers I saw told me they are more composed and less aggressive. Bears, although not as volatile as male lions, are moodier than tigers. Furthermore, they're more difficult to read.

In spite of the disadvantages, some trainers prefer working with lions. They know things can get rough, but lions generally are more predictable than tigers or bears. If you know how to deal with violence, it can be a rewarding job. Some individuals never accept humans. In most cases, trainers quickly act in that they are removed.

TIGERS

While male lions are prepared to engage anything no matter what, tigers solve problems in a different way. The main reason is upbringing in that tigers were not raised in family groups with cubs of different ages competing for food most of the time. When males disperse, they quickly need to learn about competition and consequences. The best method is to avoid larger tigers. Males never forget this lesson. No matter how large, they avoid publicity of any kind whenever possible.

In heavily-armed solitary big cats, a confrontation can result in injury or death. For this reason, tigers developed a lot of rituals to prevent a serious fight. When a confrontation can't be prevented, they don't go for an all-deciding all-out immediately. They watch and test their opponents all the time. Psychological warfare. When this doesn't have the intended effect, the intensity of what can develop into a fued grows over time. Although most conflicts are solved with 'appropiate violence', male tigers perish more often in territorial fights than male lions in Africa.

As they know about violence, male tigers tend to be much more evasive than male lions. In lion coalitions, all-out's between individuals are few and far between. It isn't about individuals, but coalitions. Wars are decided at the level of coalitions.

In male tigers, war is always between individuals. As size often is deciding in intra-specific conflict, large individuals come out on top more often than small individuals. Over time, this, all other factors equal, will result in an increase in size. In Indian tigers, the difference between captive and wild male tigers is more outspoken than in lions. Captive males average about 405 pounds (183,71 kg.), whereas adult wild males captured in the last three decades averaged close to 500 pounds (226,8 kg.). In Nepal and northern India, the average seems to be even over that mark.  

BEHAVIOR

Big cats are a result of many thousands of years of evolution. Although less able than their wild relatives, captive big cats are not very different from them. Male lions still boss each other and everything else whenever possible, whereas tigers try to stay out of harm's way. Tigers know elusiveness pays. Apart from the occasional exception, there are no bold wild male tigers. Those who forget the lesson learned when young often end up like Amur tiger 'Uporny', who was found face down in the snow some years ago. There were no signs of a fight, meaning he had been ambushed and executed. Uporny most probably entered the hunting estate of another male tiger and didn't watch his back. 

Was 'Uporny' exceptional? Don't think so. In Varty's place, male tiger 'Corbett' barely excaped death twice. He later killed his two opponents when they didn't pay attention. In male tigers, it pays to be alert and well-informed all the time. Wild male lions seem more relaxed than tigers, but they know the situation can change any moment. The difference between long-distance sleeping and a sudden fight can be a few seconds only. It has an effect on character in the long run.   

TO CONCLUDE

Notice I still didn't say one word about a serious fight between a male lion and a male tiger of equal size and age. Good information about big cats is as interesting as good information about clashes, if not more so. I assume it's clear why it pays to be elusive and evasive when you're a male tiger? And why it pays to have a now-or-never attitude when you're a male lion? I also assume that everyone posting about lions and tigers now knows about the difference between a brief confrontation and a real fight? Very good. 

As for those with very outspoken opinions on lions, tigers and the outcome of figfhts between males of equal size and age. Any idea why those involved in organising fights continued the habit for centuries? If things were as clear as many think, why would anyone back then have been prepared to bet on the outcome? And why is it that trainers writing books about their experience disagree on lions and tigers all the time? Too close to call, perhaps?

COOPER

This thread was created for trainers. There is a lot of information out there. Much more interesting than repeating all well-known views time and again. Why don't you go find some of these books? In the end, it is about a few things that could prove to be important. In order to be able to do that, good info is needed. As much as possible.

My advice is to focus on old books. Today is the day of diplomacy, meaning you'll be kept in the dark. A century ago, attitudes were different. When you find something interest, I'll post an interview with the director of a facility where big cats and bears were trained to perform. He was involved in animals from day one. Reply