There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
07-30-2014, 11:12 AM( This post was last modified: 07-30-2014, 12:08 PM by Amnon242 )
(07-29-2014, 07:51 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 12:50 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 06:30 AM)'peter' Wrote: I have visited quite a number of facilities and zoos over the years. I've measured and weighed captive big cats. Before I did, I always asked those involved to get to estimates about the cats they had known so well for so long. The conclusion was only very few were able to get to realistic estimates. Most overestimated large animals and underestimated small animals. By quite a margin, I might add.
100% agree. It´s difficult to make an estimate of a felid. For example I was in a zoo with couple of friends, we saw amur tiger and I asked them for their estimates of the weight. Our estimates varied a lot.
...and I have to add that it´s completely foolish to make an estimate based on a picture.
I have seen quite a lot of captive felids and many times I saw them at pictures first and after that I saw them in persona. I was often suprised that the real size (resp. how they looked in reality) of the felids was much different from my estimate based on picture.
This is 100% TRUE. But sadly, check those posters that believe that they favorites tigers weight more than 260 kg just based in pictures!!!
I told this to Pckts SEVERAL times and he still can't accept it. Pictures are NOT evidence of size, its is simply ridiculous. We need actual measurements to make comparisons and even then, it is not clear which is "larger".
For example, "Maurice" (Pt-33) the Amur tiger measured 208 cm in head-body and 104 cm in shoulder height, however he only weighed 179 kg. Now, "Sauraha" (M105) measured only 197 cm in head-body and probably about 100 cm in shoulder height (in the best case), however he reached the scientific record of 261 kg! At plain sight, which of them you will believe is larger??? The larger specimen or the smaller one, based ONLY in pictures???
I think that when people estimate the weight of a felid, the most importatnt factor for them is the height of the animal (which is quite misleading).
07-30-2014, 09:17 PM( This post was last modified: 07-30-2014, 09:19 PM by Pckts )
(07-30-2014, 09:08 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 11:07 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 07:51 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 12:50 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 06:30 AM)'peter' Wrote: I have visited quite a number of facilities and zoos over the years. I've measured and weighed captive big cats. Before I did, I always asked those involved to get to estimates about the cats they had known so well for so long. The conclusion was only very few were able to get to realistic estimates. Most overestimated large animals and underestimated small animals. By quite a margin, I might add.
100% agree. It´s difficult to make an estimate of a felid. For example I was in a zoo with couple of friends, we saw amur tiger and I asked them for their estimates of the weight. Our estimates varied a lot.
...and I have to add that it´s completely foolish to make an estimate based on a picture.
I have seen quite a lot of captive felids and many times I saw them at pictures first and after that I saw them in persona. I was often suprised that the real size (resp. how they looked in reality) of the felids was much different from my estimate based on picture.
This is 100% TRUE. But sadly, check those posters that believe that they favorites tigers weight more than 260 kg just based in pictures!!!
I told this to Pckts SEVERAL times and he still can't accept it. Pictures are NOT evidence of size, its is simply ridiculous. We need actual measurements to make comparisons and even then, it is not clear which is "larger".
For example, "Maurice" (Pt-33) the Amur tiger measured 208 cm in head-body and 104 cm in shoulder height, however he only weighed 179 kg. Now, "Sauraha" (M105) measured only 197 cm in head-body and probably about 100 cm in shoulder height (in the best case), however he reached the scientific record of 261 kg! At plain sight, which of them you will believe is larger??? The larger specimen or the smaller one, based ONLY in pictures???
You told this to me??
Ya right Gaute, you said and I quote "I am 100% sure no tiger can get over 260kg"
Which my response was, there is no way you can be 100% sure, and there have already been tigers who weighed more, so infact, you are wrong already.
I said nothing else and claimed no weights on any cat. I have posted others opinions of cat sizes but only used it to compare one cat to another, etc.
Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to justify a false claim by you.
Everything else peter, amnon and sanjay have said, I 100% agree.
I am simply watching out for the Forum because we all know what happens when posters have alterior motives and start to do fishy things.
I will absolutely Give Pantherinae another chance as long as its backed with some sort of evidence.
Thats all
Pckts, why you are twisting my words?
I never said that, my words where: “In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg and no larger than c.205 cm in head-body length and c.105 cm in shoulder height. The only one probably larger than this size is Wagdoh and of course, the giants of Kaziranga.”
Why are you acting like that? I sustain my point, you have no evidence to say that those males of Kanha actually weight more than 260 kg. Maybe 255 kg at the best, which is the maximum weight recorded in the area for about 100 years of hunting.
In fact, my point was to show that this type of debates are silly, because you have ZERO evidence that those males weighed “x” kilograms. However, it is interesting to see that the ONLY poster here that is at the defensive is you. I mean, there is no another person, NO ONE, only you, and only because I believe that those Central Indian males don’t look as large as the Northern Indian males, which is what the records suggest.
The opinions of other people are just that, opinions. I have not put words in your mouth, check my posts, I never say that “you” stated a weight, I used the “you” in plural, but you are the ONLY one here that jump in defense of something silly and practically useless. I mean, you are defending estimations from unknown people.
I don’t care about Pantherinae, I have read the post of both of you and you are stuck in this stupid thing of the weights of UNWEIGHED specimens. That is why I decided to intervene, with a simple opinion and indirectly, but again, you was the only one that get mad. WHY? This is my question.
Gaute said "In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg"
Gaute is WRONG. He could never ever be 100% sure about this, and the fact that tigers have already weighed more than this proves it.
So as you can see,
The only one twisting words here is you.
You have some stubborn outlook that keeps you from admitting you are wrong. End of story.
Im done with this topic. Its to hard to get you to just admit it.
07-31-2014, 10:11 AM( This post was last modified: 07-31-2014, 10:14 AM by GuateGojira )
(07-30-2014, 09:17 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-30-2014, 09:08 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 11:07 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 07:51 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 12:50 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 06:30 AM)'peter' Wrote: I have visited quite a number of facilities and zoos over the years. I've measured and weighed captive big cats. Before I did, I always asked those involved to get to estimates about the cats they had known so well for so long. The conclusion was only very few were able to get to realistic estimates. Most overestimated large animals and underestimated small animals. By quite a margin, I might add.
100% agree. It´s difficult to make an estimate of a felid. For example I was in a zoo with couple of friends, we saw amur tiger and I asked them for their estimates of the weight. Our estimates varied a lot.
...and I have to add that it´s completely foolish to make an estimate based on a picture.
I have seen quite a lot of captive felids and many times I saw them at pictures first and after that I saw them in persona. I was often suprised that the real size (resp. how they looked in reality) of the felids was much different from my estimate based on picture.
This is 100% TRUE. But sadly, check those posters that believe that they favorites tigers weight more than 260 kg just based in pictures!!!
I told this to Pckts SEVERAL times and he still can't accept it. Pictures are NOT evidence of size, its is simply ridiculous. We need actual measurements to make comparisons and even then, it is not clear which is "larger".
For example, "Maurice" (Pt-33) the Amur tiger measured 208 cm in head-body and 104 cm in shoulder height, however he only weighed 179 kg. Now, "Sauraha" (M105) measured only 197 cm in head-body and probably about 100 cm in shoulder height (in the best case), however he reached the scientific record of 261 kg! At plain sight, which of them you will believe is larger??? The larger specimen or the smaller one, based ONLY in pictures???
You told this to me??
Ya right Gaute, you said and I quote "I am 100% sure no tiger can get over 260kg"
Which my response was, there is no way you can be 100% sure, and there have already been tigers who weighed more, so infact, you are wrong already.
I said nothing else and claimed no weights on any cat. I have posted others opinions of cat sizes but only used it to compare one cat to another, etc.
Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to justify a false claim by you.
Everything else peter, amnon and sanjay have said, I 100% agree.
I am simply watching out for the Forum because we all know what happens when posters have alterior motives and start to do fishy things.
I will absolutely Give Pantherinae another chance as long as its backed with some sort of evidence.
Thats all
Pckts, why you are twisting my words?
I never said that, my words where: “In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg and no larger than c.205 cm in head-body length and c.105 cm in shoulder height. The only one probably larger than this size is Wagdoh and of course, the giants of Kaziranga.”
Why are you acting like that? I sustain my point, you have no evidence to say that those males of Kanha actually weight more than 260 kg. Maybe 255 kg at the best, which is the maximum weight recorded in the area for about 100 years of hunting.
In fact, my point was to show that this type of debates are silly, because you have ZERO evidence that those males weighed “x” kilograms. However, it is interesting to see that the ONLY poster here that is at the defensive is you. I mean, there is no another person, NO ONE, only you, and only because I believe that those Central Indian males don’t look as large as the Northern Indian males, which is what the records suggest.
The opinions of other people are just that, opinions. I have not put words in your mouth, check my posts, I never say that “you” stated a weight, I used the “you” in plural, but you are the ONLY one here that jump in defense of something silly and practically useless. I mean, you are defending estimations from unknown people.
I don’t care about Pantherinae, I have read the post of both of you and you are stuck in this stupid thing of the weights of UNWEIGHED specimens. That is why I decided to intervene, with a simple opinion and indirectly, but again, you was the only one that get mad. WHY? This is my question.
Gaute said "In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg"
Gaute is WRONG. He could never ever be 100% sure about this, and the fact that tigers have already weighed more than this proves it.
So as you can see,
The only one twisting words here is you.
You have some stubborn outlook that keeps you from admitting you are wrong. End of story.
Im done with this topic. Its to hard to get you to just admit it.
Again, quoting a single paragraph OUT OF CONTEXT??? How many times most I put the ENTIRE phrase???
I said: “In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg and no larger than c.205 cm in head-body length and c.105 cm in shoulder height. The only one probably larger than this size is Wagdoh and of course, the giants of Kaziranga.”
This it he full original phrase. You ARE twisting my words, here is the evidence. If not, why you continue this stupid discussion, with no point, in TWO different places? I don’t know why you insist in proving me wrong, when I am not.
If you are mad for the 100%, then let’s change it to 98.7%, or 90.956%, do you like it? I mean, how many times I most explain why I said what I said, it was only to stop your discussion with Pantherinae, but at the end, the solution was worse than the problem.
There is no “end of story” here, and that is what concerns me more about your latest behavior. What would happen when another poster will express a different opinion than yours, are you going to attack him, like you are doing with Pantherinae or like you do with Tigerluver in the "White tigers" topic??? That guy (Pantherinae) showed his opinion, incorrect or not, but there is no need to use phrases like “lol” or "haha" and "you" in aggressive manners, which sound more like Youtube comments. I have noted an escalated in the aggressiveness of your posts, something that was NOT part of your previous discussion.
The point of this forum was to provide an area for new knowledge and new ideas, and although I know that problem between posters are inevitable, respect is basic in the discussions.
Finally, the topic is about “Lion predation”, so, I will let this discussion here and I suggest to you to do the same. There is no point to argue any more about this. This is not cowardly, it is only common sense. Let's hope you can finally understand.
07-31-2014, 10:25 AM( This post was last modified: 07-31-2014, 10:30 AM by GuateGojira )
Pckts and Pantherinae:
The point of the topic is about “Lion Predation” and this should stay like that.
I advise you to don’t continue with your discussion about tiger sizes and estimations, this most end here, I have been involved already in this idiotic thing and I will end this right now.
Keep the topic clean, any other post, not related with the topic will be erased. The time for warm and watery decisions is over.
I am tired of losing my time in this form. I have much data to post here and this type of situations don't help the sanity of this place.
(07-31-2014, 10:25 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Pckts and Pantherinae:
The point of the topic is about “Lion Predation” and this should stay like that.
I advise you to don’t continue with your discussion about tiger sizes and estimations, this most end here, I have been involved already in this idiotic thing and I will end this right now.
Keep the topic clean, any other post, not related with the topic will be erased. The time for warm and watery decisions is over.
I am tired of losing my time in this form. I have much data to post here and this type of situations don't help the sanity of this place.
Like I said here and on the other thread.
I am done discussing this with you.
You choose to spend time debating this, same as I.
There is nobody to blame but ourselves.
Any way, moving on from both, lets just get back to sharing data and discussing/debating it.
The following 1 user Likes Pckts's post:1 user Likes Pckts's post • sanjay
08-01-2014, 11:12 AM( This post was last modified: 08-01-2014, 11:12 AM by GuateGojira )
Here are the prey items of the Indian lion, from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002):
*This image is copyright of its original author
Is incredible to see that the wild prey items are very low and are represented mostly by chital deer, which barely surpass the 90 kg at maximum.
The other problem is that domestic cattle (and feral too) compress 33.8% of is prey items, which explain the large amount of problems between farmers and lions in Gir.
However, new efforts from the government of the state of Gujarat, have increased the wild prey density and at the same time, lions prey more wild animals than cattle at this day, diminishing the conflicts with humans.
do you know if there once lived large wild cattle spices there buffalo or gaur? Then they should have relocated them back! That would have been great for both farmers and the lions! There's a clip on YouTube where two male lions in gir kills 6 cattles at once. So I can understand the problems for sure!
08-01-2014, 11:46 AM( This post was last modified: 08-01-2014, 11:47 AM by GuateGojira )
Divyabhanusinh's book "The Story of Asia's Lions" don't mention any modern species of wild bovid in the area, only the chital, wild boar, sambar and nilgai, as the largest prey.
It seems that the domestic and feral buffalo in Gir is a late introduction of the men in the area. However, some fossils of the Holocene at the cite of Langhnaj, in Gujarat, present wolves, mongoose, rhinoceros, wild boar, hog deer, swamp deer, nilgai, blackbuck and "undetermined bovine species". It is probably that some "buffalo-type" animals lived in that area, but at about 12,000 years ago, all the species related with water, like the swamp deer, disapeared from the place.
What is really shocking is that there is not a single fossil of any large cat in the area, no lion, leopard or cheetah.
Finally, it seems that the gaur, like the tiger, are tide to forest, so they cold not live, nor survive, in the arid habitat of the Gir lion.
I think that Indian lions don't need great bovids to make a great life. If the population of Sambar and Nilgai increase, that will be enough.
I wonder if its time for the gov't to start accepting that these cats are going to kill cattle.
You can't let these natural prey items roam around tiger and lion territory and expect them not to be killed.
Gov't should just pay out farmers that have lost cattle as long as they were following the rules.
'Pckts dateline='' Wrote: Sambar do get quite large and blue bull as well.
I wonder if its time for the gov't to start accepting that these cats are going to kill cattle.
You can't let these natural prey items roam around tiger and lion territory and expect them not to be killed.
Gov't should just pay out farmers that have lost cattle as long as they were following the rules.
Yeah i compleatley agree, the conflict between farmers and carnivore's have been my biggest disapointment and sadness for years! In Norway we are leting sheep's out in the forrest on the thundra etc. Even without herdsmen! And when nasjonal critical endangerd species eurasian wolf, wolverine, eurasian Lynx and eurasian brown bear kills then they are getting lisens to be shot! It's absolutley horrible to see even wolverines in National park's beeing shot because there are going to be sheep's there...
I also say even with heardsmen you can loose a cow to lions/tigers and it seems locals have alot of respect towards these cats! One man said he did not want to kill tigers even tho a tiger had killed his brother because he was proud of the tigers! So some are different there! compared to farmers in Norway where it's kill, kill, kill
Some farmers poison cats still though, wether India or africa or any where else.
Its very sad to see.
But the amount of money that these animals generate in Tourism, the least these gov'ts should do is protect them to a much higher extent. Politics should stay out of animal and enviromental conservation.
One should have nothing to do with the other, unfortunately that isn't the case.
'Pckts dateline='' Wrote: Some farmers poison cats still though, wether India or africa or any where else.
Its very sad to see.
But the amount of money that these animals generate in Tourism, the least these gov'ts should do is protect them to a much higher extent. Politics should stay out of animal and enviromental conservation.
One should have nothing to do with the other, unfortunately that isn't the case.
Could not have said it any better! Conservation for these animals is the most important thing! Also the canned hunting on lions in Africa where lions are raised in frams to be shot by disgusting american/ european trophy hunters!
