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Lion Predation

India sanjay Offline
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#76
( This post was last modified: 07-28-2014, 11:23 AM by sanjay )

Nice to see you again @Pantherinae . Keep posting good work. welcome back.
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United States TheLioness Offline
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#77

Father/son coalitions are very rare, a male lion may take in an unknown male lion but to keep his sons would only dirty up the gene pool. Not only to male father lion take charge in removing their sons, but also the mothers and sisters as well. A pride that is your family is no place to grow up and reproduce in. That is the natural way of life, moving on and breeding with unrelated females. Male father lions kick out sons before they become to strong and may take over the father.

This is lion predation so lets stick with it please.

*This image is copyright of its original author


Also the male lion clearence, I just noticed is missing half his back left leg and killed the bull buffalo, he also can still mate with three legs.
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United States Pckts Offline
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#78

(07-28-2014, 09:45 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Pckts, it happens but it's very unusual, out of 20 coallitions in seriengeti and the crater there where only one father/son coallition! 

I do not have an alias account... Stop judge before you know. It's also the thing with when you accuses people for beeing other people just because you disagreed with my opinion! Grow up! 
This is a lion predation thred so stop piss people off, with things you know will lead to argument's not even animal relatated. So be the bigger man and please not answer these last comments. You don't have to like me, but let's not take that here! If you don't whant me to comment on you're post's fine with me just send an inbox mesage and say stop then I will. 

 


Really,  weird because both of you guys
Jubatus06-26
Pantherinae06-26
have the exact same member join date, both claimed to be eye witnesses to Bamera, many lions, your father has seen Waghdoh, etc.
Asked for images of these alleged sightings and trips, you said it a excuse and said you would have them in a week. You made multiple claims and contridictions.
You deleted multiple threads after being shown your contridictions and claims. I gave you nothing but respect when you first joined, I was cival and was even asked by you privately to skype because you wanted to discuss more and enjoyed speaking with me.
Wasn't till you started to get called out on your claims in regards to what you said or your father said as well as being asked for images of these alleged encounters that you turned into somebody else, said you were never coming back, and deleted multiple threads that proved your claims inconsistant.
You are not a trustworthy poster imo, take it for what it is.

In regards to your claims about gene pools, you do know that same coalition males will control multiple prides at once, that means that prides from all over will have their genes, sons will join fathers or strangers will join. Etc... Gene pools become diversified over many and many generations, millions of years of evolution, etc.
 
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United States Pckts Offline
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#79

(07-28-2014, 09:45 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Pckts, it happens but it's very unusual, out of 20 coallitions in seriengeti and the crater there where only one father/son coallition! 

I do not have an alias account... Stop judge before you know. It's also the thing with when you accuses people for beeing other people just because you disagreed with my opinion! Grow up! 
This is a lion predation thred so stop piss people off, with things you know will lead to argument's not even animal relatated. So be the bigger man and please not answer these last comments. You don't have to like me, but let's not take that here! If you don't whant me to comment on you're post's fine with me just send an inbox mesage and say stop then I will. 

 


Really,  weird because both of you guys
Jubatus06-26
Pantherinae06-26
have the exact same member join date, both claimed to be eye witnesses to Bamera, many lions, your father has seen Waghdoh, etc.
Asked for images of these alleged sightings and trips, you said it a excuse and said you would have them in a week. You made multiple claims and contridictions.
You deleted multiple threads after being shown your contridictions and claims. I gave you nothing but respect when you first joined, I was cival and was even asked by you privately to skype because you wanted to discuss more and enjoyed speaking with me.
Wasn't till you started to get called out on your claims in regards to what you said or your father said as well as being asked for images of these alleged encounters that you turned into somebody else, said you were never coming back, and deleted multiple threads that proved your claims inconsistant.
You are not a trustworthy poster imo, take it for what it is.

In regards to your claims about gene pools, you do know that same coalition males will control multiple prides at once, that means that prides from all over will have their genes, sons will join fathers or strangers will join. Etc... Gene pools become diversified over many and many generations, millions of years of evolution, etc.
 
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#80

well it's not me.. Yeah you're right I enjoyed takling to you! Because you did not seem to be baised, but then I said something you did not agree with and accused me for beeing Bold. Which I'm not. A gave you every information I said I was going to give you! But when I started beeing accused for stuff
I did remove my thread's! Not because You did not belive me! But I was going to post pictures but when wild fact forum refused me of deleating my post's I do not wanna post more pictures! Thats why!  
but I don't care if you belive me or not ,I know what I have seen! Also stop accusing me for stuff when you don't have any idea! wheren't you soon 30 year's old? grow up!  

Now back to topic
I know that they will lead multiply prides at once look at notch boys, mapogo etc. But I talked about fathers and sons, thats not common! Thats what I said! 
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United States Pckts Offline
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#81

(07-28-2014, 11:58 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: well it's not me.. Yeah you're right I enjoyed takling to you! Because you did not seem to be baised, but then I said something you did not agree with and accused me for beeing Bold. Which I'm not. A gave you every information I said I was going to give you! But when I started beeing accused for stuff
I did remove my thread's! Not because You did not belive me! But I was going to post pictures but when wild fact forum refused me of deleating my post's I do not wanna post more pictures! Thats why!  
but I don't care if you belive me or not ,I know what I have seen! Also stop accusing me for stuff when you don't have any idea! wheren't you soon 30 year's old? grow up!  

Now back to topic
I know that they will lead multiply prides at once look at notch boys, mapogo etc. But I talked about fathers and sons, thats not common! Thats what I said! 

 


You claimed that bamera was small, you claimed waghdoh was short, after which you specifically said he was larger than any lion in any measurement according to your "father" who of course has seen all of these tigers. You said you had pictures of all of these alleged "safari's" and you would post them a week from the claim date because of some excuse about not being able to access your images. You deleted threads showing your claims and your counter claims. Lets not forget that you work with Ayslan and Rex as well. [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]
Still waiting on these pictures btw.

Nobody here should trust you, tbh.
I just showed that you used multiple alias or atleast you and the only other person to make these claims had the exact same join date.
How random.....

Tell me to "grow up" but you're the one making these outrageous statements while providing nothing to back them. That is all I have to say to you.
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#82

@Pckts haha I said  bamera was around 220 kg thats not small! And also now you're talking s**t because I never said, my dad said wagdoh was long he said he was the biggest cat he has seen but in estimated weight! That's all! The reason I did not have the pictures is because I live in Kristainsand now but my whole family lives in Stavanger! Two different places in Norway! Also it was not me deleating the post's it was wild fact themself who deleated them! Because I wanted to deleate it all! Because of the insults! I haven't lied once and has brought all information you have asked for, exept those pictures which I would have posted! But you have insulted me and accused me for beeing Bold aswell as lied and said I called you stupid! 

Fine this is the last you will her form me! 
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United States Pckts Offline
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#83

(07-29-2014, 12:34 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Pckts haha I said  bamera was around 220 kg thats not small! And also now you're talking s**t because I never said, my dad said wagdoh was long he said he was the biggest cat he has seen but in estimated weight! That's all! The reason I did not have the pictures is because I live in Kristainsand now but my whole family lives in Stavanger! Two different places in Norway! Also it was not me deleating the post's it was wild fact themself who deleated them! Because I wanted to deleate it all! Because of the insults! I haven't lied once and has brought all information you have asked for, exept those pictures which I would have posted! But you have insulted me and accused me for beeing Bold aswell as lied and said I called you stupid! 

Fine this is the last you will her form me! 

 


You said you would have the images in a week, that was of course a month ago. You deleted all of the threads and the only reason they were brought back was because of the mods, who simply deleted your statements and kept the actual data and info that was there. The stuff that actually mattered that people worked hard on to get. You aboslutely without a doubt deleted all of the threads and admitted to it.
You have brought forth nothing when it comes to any of your claims about any of these big cats and lets not forget your claims of working with Aslyan as well.
You said nothing on the fact that you and Jubatas have the exact same join date, both claimed to be eye witness and have images as well.

"Fine this is the last you will her form me! "

I have heard this ^^ before.

It's not just me that knows about this btw, you think Im the only one who knows your not who you say. I was warned about you right away, and I chose to disregard it. But that was my mistake and the minute I started to actually ask for some evidence, it started to get much more hazy.


If only there was some way to digitally send images of all of these "alleged safari's" you could easily clear up any of these misconceptions.
[img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]



 
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#84
( This post was last modified: 07-29-2014, 09:03 AM by peter )

PC AND PANTHERINAE

The intention of this forum is to get to good information on predators in general and big cats in particular. Good info is the aim, but a nice debate can be interesting as well. Everything else is out. Forum rules say it starts with respect. Here's a few remarks and I propose to take the advice to heart.


PC

Being interested in animals is different from being able to interact in public. Posting on a forum isn't easy. It takes skill and time to learn how to post good info and how to debate. You had some experience, whereas Pantherinae is new to the trade. From what I read, I'd say he's quite young and probably unexperienced. If you're unhappy with the way he's posting, try to guide him in the right direction. If the result is  unsatisfactory, try something else or inform the mods.

Don't jump to conclusions and remember it took me, when at college, many years to learn how to do research, how to write a report, how to get to conclusions and how to respond to questions. In the end, it is about details, accuracy and consistency all the way. Very difficult at the best of times and many of those I knew, although they graduated, never succeeded in writing something decent. This regarding those able to get to and finish college. Apart from them I know plenty of people I consider knowledgeable but unable to express themselves at all. Yet we talk.  


PANTHERINAE

It's clear you are interested in big cats. The question is how to exchange information. If you join a forum, members will respond to your posts. Anything you offer will be used to get to a debate. It can also be used against you. This is the reason you got to try to be as accurate as possible. If you post something remarkable, members want to see your cards. You also got to remember everything you post is here to stay. Inaccurate info, disputes and everything connected can follow you for a long time to come. In this respect, the internet is unforgiving.  

Another thing you might have noticed is those interested in a particular animal take things very personal at times. If you, even without intention to do so, post something that could be interpreted in the wrong way, chances are a dispute will erupt and a war could develop. The only thing that isn't unpredicatable in a war is the destruction it causes.

I can give you many examples of forums that have been destroyed by unhappy members. This forum, in fact, was started by members of a forum that was destroyed. As we know things can get out of hand real fast, we decided to be strict regarding rules. You are invited to continue. Before you do, my advice is to read the forum rules again. I'll ask PC to contact you.


PICTURES, VIDEOS, BIG CATS, BLOGS AND WEIGHTS

Today, many reserves in India are open for the public. Same in Africa. Tourists post videos and pictures, there are blogs and forums and debates seem to be all over the place. Most of those offering estimates on big cats seem to be quite sure about themselves.  

I have visited quite a number of facilities and zoos over the years. I've measured and weighed captive big cats. Before I did, I always asked those involved to get to estimates about the cats they had known so well for so long. The conclusion was only very few were able to get to realistic estimates. Most overestimated large animals and underestimated small animals. By quite a margin, I might add.

I apparently takes a lot of experience to get to within 10%. When you can see an animal yourself at close range. In wild animals, it's way more difficult to get to a good estimate. It depends on the angles. Furthermore, individuals seem subject to significant fluctuations.

The only thing we can be sure about is information in peer-reviewed documents and these suggest wild Indian tigers, at the level of average, seem to be heavier than all other wild big cats. The differences between Kruger lions and Amur tigers (length and weight) are limited. All other subspecies are smaller, but tigers show a bit more variation than lions. Ngorogoro lions and Kazirangha tigers, however, have not been weighed.

I propose to be a bit more careful regarding wild big cats and weights. When it can't be avoided, try to stick to arguments. The thing we want to avoid is heated discussions about zilch. Ok? 
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#85

@Pckts you never asked about pictures! It was someone else! Not you... 
Also you do seem not to understand my answers I was going to post, but I deleated all my thread's and post's because I wanted to leve this forum, because of the way you behaved! 
All this: asked me for pictures, I said wagdoh was short and I wanted to leve. Was on the same day! You didn't say anything before I said that about wagdoh! You was wrong with me beeing Bold, and you're wrong now! 

Also the pictures: I have them on a hard disk and my brother was coming to wisit me anyway so I said relax just bring the hard disk!.. That's it! And the reason I won't post them now is because I cannot remove them if I want to! That's it! Belive it or not! 

Also what pictures of Aslan was it I was supposed to post? Haha you doesent belive that either.. 
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India sanjay Offline
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#86

@Pantherinae , Did you read the post of peter just above ?

If you are here to only debate, Then i suggest you to leave this forum, Strongly.
This section is for providing information and data to member. If you don't want to post information (like pictures, videos and data) to backup your statements and only want to keep arguing with Pckts or other member, then please don't pollute this forum. You said you are not going to post any data, that means you will continue debate and no real information

I agree Pckts has misunderstand you, but at least he has his pictures, videos and data to backup his statements. @Pckts I request you to read the peter post above. and give a chance to prove phantherinae himself, don't be rude with new posters.
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
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#87
( This post was last modified: 07-29-2014, 02:20 PM by Amnon242 )

(07-29-2014, 07:00 AM)peter Wrote: I have visited quite a number of facilities and zoos over the years. I've measured and weighed captive big cats. Before I did, I always asked those involved to get to estimates about the cats they had known so well for so long. The conclusion was only very few were able to get to realistic estimates. Most overestimated large animals and underestimated small animals. By quite a margin, I might add.

100% agree. It´s difficult to make an estimate of a felid. For example I was in a zoo with couple of friends, we saw amur tiger and I asked them for their estimates of the weight. Our estimates varied a lot.

...and I have to add that it´s completely foolish to make an estimate based on a picture.

I have seen quite a lot of captive felids and many times I saw them at pictures first and after that I saw them in persona. I was often suprised that the real size (resp. how they looked in reality) of the felids was much different from my estimate based on picture.  
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#88
( This post was last modified: 07-29-2014, 08:22 PM by GuateGojira )

(07-29-2014, 01:20 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 07:00 AM)'peter' Wrote: I have visited quite a number of facilities and zoos over the years. I've measured and weighed captive big cats. Before I did, I always asked those involved to get to estimates about the cats they had known so well for so long. The conclusion was only very few were able to get to realistic estimates. Most overestimated large animals and underestimated small animals. By quite a margin, I might add.


 

100% agree. It´s difficult to make an estimate of a felid. For example I was in a zoo with couple of friends, we saw amur tiger and I asked them for their estimates of the weight. Our estimates varied a lot.

...and I have to add that it´s completely foolish to make an estimate based on a picture.

I have seen quite a lot of captive felids and many times I saw them at pictures first and after that I saw them in persona. I was often suprised that the real size (resp. how they looked in reality) of the felids was much different from my estimate based on picture.  

 
This is 100% TRUE. But sadly, check those posters that believe that they favorites tigers weight more than 260 kg just based in pictures!!!
 
I told this to Pckts SEVERAL times and he still can't accept it. Pictures are NOT evidence of size, its is simply ridiculous. We need actual measurements to make comparisons and even then, it is not clear which is "larger".
 
For example, "Maurice" (Pt-33) the Amur tiger measured 208 cm in head-body and 104 cm in shoulder height, however he only weighed 179 kg. Now, "Sauraha" (M105) measured only 197 cm in head-body and probably about 100 cm in shoulder height (in the best case), however he reached the scientific record of 261 kg! At plain sight, which of them you will believe is larger??? The larger specimen or the smaller one, based ONLY in pictures???
 
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United States Pckts Offline
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(07-29-2014, 08:21 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 01:20 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 07:00 AM)'peter' Wrote: I have visited quite a number of facilities and zoos over the years. I've measured and weighed captive big cats. Before I did, I always asked those involved to get to estimates about the cats they had known so well for so long. The conclusion was only very few were able to get to realistic estimates. Most overestimated large animals and underestimated small animals. By quite a margin, I might add.



 

100% agree. It´s difficult to make an estimate of a felid. For example I was in a zoo with couple of friends, we saw amur tiger and I asked them for their estimates of the weight. Our estimates varied a lot.

...and I have to add that it´s completely foolish to make an estimate based on a picture.

I have seen quite a lot of captive felids and many times I saw them at pictures first and after that I saw them in persona. I was often suprised that the real size (resp. how they looked in reality) of the felids was much different from my estimate based on picture.  


 
This is 100% TRUE. But sadly, check those posters that believe that they favorites tigers weight more than 260 kg just based in pictures!!!
 
I told this to Pckts SEVERAL times and he still can't accept it. Pictures are NOT evidence of size, its is simply ridiculous. We need actual measurements to make comparisons and even then, it is not clear which is "larger".
 
For example, "Maurice" (Pt-33) the Amur tiger measured 208 cm in head-body and 104 cm in shoulder height, however he only weighed 179 kg. Now, "Sauraha" (M105) measured only 197 cm in head-body and probably about 100 cm in shoulder height (in the best case), however he reached the scientific record of 261 kg! At plain sight, which of them you will believe is larger??? The larger specimen or the smaller one, based ONLY in pictures???
 

 

You told this to me??
Ya right Gaute, you said and I quote "I am 100% sure no tiger can get  over 260kg"
Which my response was, there is no way you can be 100% sure, and there have already been tigers who weighed more, so infact, you are wrong already.
I said nothing else and claimed no weights on any cat. I have posted others opinions of cat sizes but only used it to compare one cat to another, etc.
Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to justify a false claim by you.

Everything else peter, amnon and sanjay have said, I 100% agree.
I am simply watching out for the Forum because we all know what happens when posters have alterior motives and start to do fishy things.
I will absolutely Give Pantherinae another chance as long as its backed with some sort of evidence.
Thats all

 
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#90

(07-29-2014, 11:37 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 08:21 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 01:20 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:
(07-29-2014, 07:00 AM)'peter' Wrote: I have visited quite a number of facilities and zoos over the years. I've measured and weighed captive big cats. Before I did, I always asked those involved to get to estimates about the cats they had known so well for so long. The conclusion was only very few were able to get to realistic estimates. Most overestimated large animals and underestimated small animals. By quite a margin, I might add.




 

100% agree. It´s difficult to make an estimate of a felid. For example I was in a zoo with couple of friends, we saw amur tiger and I asked them for their estimates of the weight. Our estimates varied a lot.

...and I have to add that it´s completely foolish to make an estimate based on a picture.

I have seen quite a lot of captive felids and many times I saw them at pictures first and after that I saw them in persona. I was often suprised that the real size (resp. how they looked in reality) of the felids was much different from my estimate based on picture.  



 
This is 100% TRUE. But sadly, check those posters that believe that they favorites tigers weight more than 260 kg just based in pictures!!!
 
I told this to Pckts SEVERAL times and he still can't accept it. Pictures are NOT evidence of size, its is simply ridiculous. We need actual measurements to make comparisons and even then, it is not clear which is "larger".
 
For example, "Maurice" (Pt-33) the Amur tiger measured 208 cm in head-body and 104 cm in shoulder height, however he only weighed 179 kg. Now, "Sauraha" (M105) measured only 197 cm in head-body and probably about 100 cm in shoulder height (in the best case), however he reached the scientific record of 261 kg! At plain sight, which of them you will believe is larger??? The larger specimen or the smaller one, based ONLY in pictures???
 


 

You told this to me??
Ya right Gaute, you said and I quote "I am 100% sure no tiger can get  over 260kg"
Which my response was, there is no way you can be 100% sure, and there have already been tigers who weighed more, so infact, you are wrong already.
I said nothing else and claimed no weights on any cat. I have posted others opinions of cat sizes but only used it to compare one cat to another, etc.
Don't put words in my mouth and don't try to justify a false claim by you.

Everything else peter, amnon and sanjay have said, I 100% agree.
I am simply watching out for the Forum because we all know what happens when posters have alterior motives and start to do fishy things.
I will absolutely Give Pantherinae another chance as long as its backed with some sort of evidence.
Thats all

 

 
Pckts, why you are twisting my words?
 
I never said that, my words where: “In fact, I am 100% sure that all these giants are no heavier than 260 kg and no larger than c.205 cm in head-body length and c.105 cm in shoulder height. The only one probably larger than this size is Wagdoh and of course, the giants of Kaziranga.”
 
Source: http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-male-tig...48#pid3648
 
Why are you acting like that? I sustain my point, you have no evidence to say that those males of Kanha actually weight more than 260 kg. Maybe 255 kg at the best, which is the maximum weight recorded in the area for about 100 years of hunting.
 
In fact, my point was to show that this type of debates are silly, because you have ZERO evidence that those males weighed “x” kilograms. However, it is interesting to see that the ONLY poster here that is at the defensive is you. I mean, there is no another person, NO ONE, only you, and only because I believe that those Central Indian males don’t look as large as the Northern Indian males, which is what the records suggest.
 
The opinions of other people are just that, opinions. I have not put words in your mouth, check my posts, I never say that “you” stated a weight, I used the “you” in plural, but you are the ONLY one here that jump in defense of something silly and practically useless. I mean, you are defending estimations from unknown people.
 
I don’t care about Pantherinae, I have read the post of both of you and you are stuck in this stupid thing of the weights of UNWEIGHED specimens. That is why I decided to intervene, with a simple opinion and indirectly, but again, you was the only one that get mad. WHY? This is my question.
 
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