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Lions of Sabi Sands
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@sik94 Mr.T isn't an example of "more dominant, strong male splitting" just like KT isn't an example of "right-hand lion who follows the leader".
Quite the opposite, they split because they were getting outmuscled by their stronger brothers, which is well documented. And KT wasn't "Mr.T's right-hand man", reports vary about who was more dominant, some rangers said Mr.T, some said KT, some said they were evenly matched. A WildEarth ranger back in 2016 even said he didn't believe they had a special bond and the biggest fights he had ever seen over mating rights was between both of them who would often "absolute beat the daylights out of each other" much more serious than Tinyo and Mfumo, he adds. In fact it was KT who ripped half of Mr.T's nose off. As for the Matimbas, we don't know how they operated as a coalition in regards to dominance, we only know that as a duo HB was more dominant than Ginger. Kambulas would be a better example of stronger brothers splitting. K1 and K2 were much more confident and instead of remaining in familiar Sabi Sands territory with their brothers, close to their natal territory, they moved off to explore Kruger and will reach 1 year of dominance before their more numerous brothers become territorial too. Hell K1 as a barely 4yo male forced dominant older Ndhzenga male to share a carcass with him. 
How much older are K1 & K2 than their brothers? I would actually compare the Kambula situation with that of the Avocas, two older brothers were more developed and ahead in their growth as a result they left the pride earlier than their other brothers who weren’t quite ready yet. As for the Mr T/KT debate it was well documented that the main reason for their split was due to internal battles for dominance and being outmuscled by their brothers for food and mating opportunities. But saying that, Mr T & KT were both still strong males in their own right as proven in their ability to defend such a huge territory for so long, which they wouldn’t have been capable of doing if they didn’t have an extremely strong bond. Fighting between brothers for mating rights is always going to happen but it doesn’t mean they have a weaker bond, take the Plains Camp Males as an example for this. Also Hairy Belly was generally considered more dominant than Ginger but this did fluctuate quite a bit, particularly when they returned to Sabi Sands and Hairy Belly was in quite poor condition at the time.
 (05-30-2024, 10:25 PM)adamstocks16 Wrote: How much older are K1 & K2 than their brothers? I would actually compare the Kambula situation with that of the Avocas, two older brothers were more developed and ahead in their growth as a result they left the pride earlier than their other brothers who weren’t quite ready yet. As for the Mr T/KT debate it was well documented that the main reason for their split was due to internal battles for dominance and being outmuscled by their brothers for food and mating opportunities. But saying that, Mr T & KT were both still strong males in their own right as proven in their ability to defend such a huge territory for so long, which they wouldn’t have been capable of doing if they didn’t have an extremely strong bond. Fighting between brothers for mating rights is always going to happen but it doesn’t mean they have a weaker bond, take the Plains Camp Males as an example for this. Also Hairy Belly was generally considered more dominant than Ginger but this did fluctuate quite a bit, particularly when they returned to Sabi Sands and Hairy Belly was in quite poor condition at the time. They're barely older. According to Mala Mala all the 2018 lot were born from June - September. So they are max 3 months older.  (05-30-2024, 07:29 PM)BA0701 Wrote:(05-30-2024, 02:47 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Original video of Talamati vs BDM: Nice observations my friend @BA0701. Now, I have the same questions 
K1 born in I think June or July k2 born in August 3 4 and 5 in September All 2018
K1 was born in June, K2 August, K3, K4, K5 September, K6 May 2019.
K1 and K2 are just build different, they were born to rule, their brothers are lucky they are 4, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance at becoming territorial unless they were as lucky as the S.BDM were, but even then, BDM couldn't even rule for 1 year.
K2 in particular has become quite an impressive male but we also can’t forget the role of their third partner, the Pretoriuskop Male. It clearly has helped them along in their path to dominance. Is the Pretorisukop Male around the same age as them or slightly older?
 (05-30-2024, 10:41 PM)Mapokser Wrote: K1 and K2 are just build different, they were born to rule, their brothers are lucky they are 4, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance at becoming territorial unless they were as lucky as the S.BDM were, but even then, BDM couldn't even rule for 1 year. Comparing coalitions in completley different situations and scenarios cant be done like that. They actually joined 3rd male and become territorial as a coalition of 3, we have too little to none info about 2 older Kambulas to say they are "born to rule".
If that is indeed the case that would point more towards the Pretoriuskop Male taking charge and leading the Kambulas as opposed to the other way around. Although with the limited sightings it’s quite difficult to establish the exact dynamics in the coalition.
(05-31-2024, 12:08 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(05-30-2024, 10:41 PM)Mapokser Wrote: K1 and K2 are just build different, they were born to rule, their brothers are lucky they are 4, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance at becoming territorial unless they were as lucky as the S.BDM were, but even then, BDM couldn't even rule for 1 year. They showed signs though. Like when their pride and Mohawks were on a kill and Mohawk swatted one of their siblings, the two immediately were having none of it and reacted in a way (sort of charging him side by side from the other side of the carcass) that resulted in Mohawked being pushed off from a kill. Kambulas were still subs back then and Mohawk was in good if not top shape. K1 and K2 were very impressive in that sighting, reacting together with no hesitation, showing great bond already. Good that they find each other in Kruger later and didn't end up separeted like they were for a time. And got themselves a useful buddy on top of that.  (05-31-2024, 12:53 AM)Ngonya Wrote: Sabi Sand Kambula scenario is way easier then two young males roaming around Kruger. Maybe is, maybe is not, different scenario and situation. And again, 2 Kambulas joined 1 more male, they are coalition of 3, for which we have 0 info how they become territorial, who their competition was, if any, their dynamics and did they actually have hard road or not. So comparing the 2, without any info about Kruger Kambulas, is quite a strech. I dont like comparisons like this : " look, these 4 males didnt become territorial in certain area, but look these 2 become territorial in completley different area, they must be so superior lions". Its not as simple as that, theres many factors involved.
Yeah. Older Kambulas were very bold by splitting and going to Kruger. Even if they joined a third male, they are still 3, not 4, and are dominant for many many months by now, while their 4 brothers in a much easier area having twice the numbers of every other coalition, are still nomads.
Also we had seen their partner beaten from mating rights fights, as well as winning a lioness once, so at the very least he is not particularly more dominant than the others necessarily.
Agree with @Tr1x24 here. The fact their sister is still hanging with them is also a factor that needs to be taken into account. Yes, it’s true they have been quite slow in their development (aside from K4) but couldn’t this argument also be made with Casper and his bros? If I remember rightly they didn’t become dominant until they were 6/7 years old and they were also a coalition of 4.
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