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Polar · 02-12-2016, 05:36 PM

(02-12-2016, 12:24 PM)peter Wrote: POLAR

I'm interested in the report in sloth bears and tigers.

As this thread is on trainers, I propose to start a new thread. If the report is written by biologists, you can post it in the tiger extinction thread.

Alright, will do. :)

~~brotherbear~~ · 02-17-2016, 08:15 PM

Polar; I like your new profile picture. Happy

Pckts · 06-30-2016, 11:22 PM

I just bought "No bars between" by Alex Kerr

*This image is copyright of its original author

I'll let you know how it is and notes from it once I receive it and read it.

Pckts · 07-07-2016, 12:04 AM

"No Bars Between" By Alex Kerr

*This image is copyright of its original author

Pictured is Khan (2.5 year old tiger at the time and Suleiman a 3.5 year old wild lion from S. Africa)

I haven't finished the book but I have read most of it and these are the notes as follows
-Alex Kerr started with all male lions and continued to add them as the years passed
-He later bough 3 young tigers, 2 females and a mlae, Khan
-Lions are hardier in captivity, the breed much easier and are less suseptable to stomach viruses than tigers.
He was unable to breed Khan with either tigress' over the years
-Atlas another wild male lion, was the most aggressive when the tigress would come into heat and would even try to fight Khan through the bars (khan was the king, he was the most dangerous of all the cats.
-Atlas may have been the most aggressive of the lions when it came to mating but he wasn't the boss. That honor belonged to Negus early on then it belonged to Bebe during later years.
-Bebe was a sissy cat, he didn't know how to fight and was very skittish of all other lions. Once Kerr tried to introduce bebe to prince (a bully lion) and prince quickly attacked him and his other brother jumped in so they must be separeted.
What kerr noticed about lions is this, the boss lion dictates who is allowed to attack and who gets attacked. If one lion over steps his boundaries and attacks, the boss lion will attack the aggressor. Kerr used this to his advantage, he separated Negus with Bebe and since bebe was so submissive to Negus, they quickly became friends. Finally Kerr tried to introduce them together again and as soon as Prince attacked Bebe, Negus was on him in a flash and showed Negus to be the coward most bullies are. After that, bebe started to build confidence and was even taught to fight by Kerr, he later became the boss lion of the wild lions that were introduced later.
-Tigers can jump easily and do so often, lions do not, a trainer must choose wisely on which lion can be used since it's not as natural a movement for them.
-Lions roar "the same as a bird sings" for no apparent reason, tigers make far more sounds and have a wider variety.
-A tigers attacking snarl is terrifying and loud! It sounds as though a "chainsaw is cutting through wood"
-A tiger is a better fighter than a lion and the most dangerous of them.
-Atlas and Khan needed to be across from each other since they both had a natural aggression towards one another.
-Leopards are brave and impossible to read, they can cover 11' in a instance and other than a bent ear or a slight snarl, you wouldn't get much warning.
They don't care about size, they are game. They'll fight any and all comers.
-Bears are extremely dangerous and very tough to read. Their characteristics are all very different.
He had a sloth bear that was extremely dangerous and ill tempered and a himalayan brown bear that was so loving and sweet but she was ready to fight at a moments notice.
He had 2 polar bears but had to get rid of them since they got to large.
-Kerr was friends with hans brick, really respected him.
-Kerr thought beatty was cruel but understood his act and adopted the idea of "to each their own"
-People were boycotting circuses even in the 50s and he speaks on it.

very good read, he loved his cats, especially lions, he treated them with respect.
Ill continue reading it and let you know what other tidbits i find.

Pckts · 07-07-2016, 01:31 AM

A few images and excerpts

On vocalizations

*This image is copyright of its original author

How much they cost and what the eat per day

*This image is copyright of its original author

On his first 3 tigers

*This image is copyright of its original author

The cage arrangement and his stance on Tiger and Lions fighting (notice that he would keep himself between atlas and khans line of sight)

*This image is copyright of its original author

On walking the tight rope
Khan on the Tight rope and Bebe jumping over a younger khan 2.5 yrs and Sulemani 3.5yrs

*This image is copyright of its original author

Negus (the boss lion on the tight rope)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Apollo · 09-20-2016, 12:17 PM

Apollo · 10-15-2016, 04:32 AM

epaiva · 03-11-2017, 10:33 AM

(12-02-2015, 12:36 PM)peter Wrote: Welcome to the forum, @~~Counter~~. Any chance you're involved in captive big cats in some way?

Measurements of captive Amur tigers

As to you question. The captive male lions I measured were shorter than the male Amur tigers. Male lion 'Sascha' could have been similar in weight to 'Arames', but the other two most probably lacked a bit (we moved them when they were sedated and concluded the male Amurs were heavier).

The director of the facility told me he had had two big male circus lions ('Athos' and 'Zeus') some time before the Amurs arrived. They were larger than the three lions I measured, but I have no details. The director said they compared to the three male Amur tigers.

Here's a table of the captive Amur tigers I measured and weighed:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Based on my experience, I'd say that 'Igor' and 'Amur' were a bit shorter than average. They were, however, muscular and bulky. Male tiger 'Arames', although longer, was quite lanky.

The story on the Amur tigers

The facility had 7 adult Amur tigers. All of them had been part of a circus act. During a show somewhere in France in 1996, one of the adult males escaped. Although the audience panicked, nothing happened. The trainer went after him and both returned to the cage. When the trainer entered the cage, however, he stumbled. The tiger, nervous as a result of the commotion, acted instinctively and bit him once. The trainer died immediately and the tiger was shot.

Some three months later, after many weeks of neglect, the 7 remaining Amur tigers were moved to the facility in the Netherlands. After they had recovered to an extent, the director decided to have the male tigers sterilized. Journalists were invited and videos later appeared on youtube. He asked me to measure and weigh the tigers. When I was measuring the tigers, 2 of them suddenly woke up. This is the reason they were not weighed. Tiger 'Arames', however, was.

When we had the correct weight, the tiger woke up. Remember he was weighed out in the open. No cage, I mean. Those present started running for their life, but we managed to keep him quiet and moved him to his cage. A tricky affaire, but we managed to do it without problems. Arames was a very friendly animal.

One of the other two males, 'Igor', was anything but that. When fully awake, he told us loud and clear he wasn't happy about the proceedings. He demonstrated for over two hours and the atmosphere became so tense that all left the scene. They really thought he would tear the place apart and so did I. In spite of that, I stayed. Never saw something so angry for so long.

A mock fight

Tiger 'Amur', his brother, was very different. A tiger with classic features, he was. He seemed to realize he was something special. After he had been sterilized, we carried him to his cage. The man who had transported many said he was the heaviest of the 60 odd big cats they had handled. After he was measured, he approached a nice Bengal tigress in the cage next to his. She didn't like it one bit and neither did her mate, a short, but bulky male lion (this was 'Macho').

He immediately went for the tiger with everything he had and all present ran away screaming. I saw what happened next at a distance of about a yard. The lion rose when he got to the bars, but the tiger had seen him coming and rose as well. On his hindlegs, he was taller, bigger and faster. He moved like an experienced fighter. When the lion hit the bars, the tiger had moved to the right and landed a heavy blow to the bars separating both cages. At that moment, he also moved in his left paw for an upper-cut. He never made a sound, but seemed to enjoy the action. There was, however, no more action, as the lion had seen enough. Standing on his hind legs against the bars, he rolled over in submission. He told his fiancee about back luck and very bad luck, but she no agree and furiously attacked the mighty Amur. This was much appreciated by the tiger, but he couldn't destroy the cage.

Some weeks later, I noticed tiger 'Amur' and lion 'Macho' got along well. The tigress, however, still didn't like the Amur. A few years later, tiger 'Amur' and his brother 'Igor' were moved to a Chinese safari park. Both were weighed at Schiphol Airport. The scales used over there are very accurate, because freight is important and they don't want problems. The man who moved the tigers to the airport told me that one of the tigers was 211 kg. (466 pounds). I assume it was 'Amur', but I'm not sure.

As to the mock fight I witnessed from a few feet. I'd say there was no fight. The reason is 'Amur' had a significant advantage over 'Macho' (see the tables) and the problem was settled in less than 10 seconds. When the tiger would have faced a bigger lion, the outcome could have been different. What I remember most is the speed, the tremendous energy, the power and the noise. Although I was very impressed, the director told me the Sumatrans, regarding fights, dwarfed all other big cats. I agree Sumatran tigers, for energy invested and aggression, could be unmatched, but my guess is an average Amur tiger wouldn't be impressed. Size counts and the animals also know.

Amur tigers and brown bears

When the Amur tigers had just arrived, the facility also had a very large male brown bear. The Amurs could not have known, because they had just arrived and his cage was some distance away. In spite of that, they knew he was there and the bear also knew. When I went to his cage, he was very nervous and urinating all the time. I moved away and positioned myself between both cages. The animals couldn't see each other, but I could have sworn I felt energy coming towards the cage of the bear. When I moved to the cages of the tigers, I saw that all 7 were standing on their hind legs. They couldn't see the bear (the wall they faced was about 8-9 feet in height), but nevertheless knew exactly where the cage of the bear was. My guess is they were interested in a debate.

Posters often talk about lions and tigers. I understand, as males in particular tend to discuss issues the hard way. I wouldn't say they was good neighbours, but domination is different from annihilation. Amur tigers and brown bears really seem to hate each other. I've seen Amur tigers interacting with all kinds of animals. Never saw them get angry. When they see a brown bear, however, things change. Male tigers in particular often respond in a very aggressive way. My guess is they would engage any bear (and the other way round). I saw it more than once and trainers confirmed the animosity is deep-rooted.

This is why I don't buy the information on tigers and brown bears in Russia. Biologists concluded male brown bears are not on the menu. Could be true, but I'm sure they meet every now and then. Although I trust the biologists, Vaillant ('The tiger', pp. 139-141) could be right. He talked to those in the know and concluded a male tiger will avoid a big bear, but not others. Fights do not seem to be a result of a failed hunt, but of something else:

" ... Based on observations of hunters and biologists, it appears that Amur tigers will occasionally kill bears solely on something we might recognize as principle. Communal animals sometimes engage in wanton attacks, but it is hard to imagine any other solitary animal capable of a tiger's ambitious and intelligent savagery ... " ('The tiger', pp. 140).

My guess is male Amur tigers do not hunt adult male brown bears. They fight them at times. My guess is quite many fights will go all the way. In the sixties of the last century, Russian biologists apparently concluded male brown bears win most fights with male Amur tigers 'on points'. I tend to agree. If it would be the other way round, brown bears in southeast Russia would be in serious trouble.

To finish the post

Here's a few photographs taken in the facility mentioned above. This is tiger 'Arames', the longest of the 3 males I measured. The director is on the right. The big man left, blind, wanted to touch the tigers and he did. To give you an idea about the size of the tiger. The blind man was well over 250 pounds:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This is the director instructing participants of a workshop. The tigers are Amurs. They seem a bit larger than they were, because of the wooden floor in the cage:

*This image is copyright of its original author

An adult male lion and 3 Amur tigers close together. I never heard of any problems:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hope you like the forum. Feel free to post and so long,

Peter.

Great information Peter, Thanks

Spalea · 03-11-2017, 01:33 PM

@Pckts :

About #96: I just discover the book you recently mentioned "No far between" by Alex Kerr.

After having told, page 81, that "Tigers have a far more delicate constitution than lions", (?) Alex Kerr added, page 130, that "A tiger nearly always win a fight with a lion"... I don't know what to think, but that doesn't seem to be coherent. The tigers despite their fragile constitution will rule over all the big cats of the world ? A question of personality perhaps...

Same page 130, 2 lines after: "The tigers are more tenacious and determined providing that other lions do not gang up to help their mate"... Is the lion really the only one social cat that other teamers depicted too ? That is exactly the opposite that other trainers claimed, for exemple Tony Hughes presented by @peter (page 3 of this thread). Perhaps the lions have a so varied personality, that their psychology always differs... Thus, they are never perceived in the same way.

Perhaps Alex Kerr would have needed a proofreader before editing his book. Perhaps, I don't know, but perhaps...

I joke, it's not very important.

~~brotherbear~~ · 03-11-2017, 03:43 PM

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/09/doug-seu...z4b0PySyui

Doug Seus is one of Hollywood’s premier animal trainers and owner of Wasatch Rocky Mountain Wildlife Inc. and the Vital Ground Foundation.

Read more: http://www.ammoland.com/2014/09/doug-seus-one-of-hollywoods-foremost-animal-trainers/#ixzz4b0rT0VE3
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

~~Haymaker~~ · 03-30-2017, 08:45 AM

Ok, so is this the thread that were suppose to have debates in I was told?

What I first notice about the trainer Alex Kerr, is yes he's saying tigers usually win in fights, but he also says this, " I had always hankered after tigers." My dream act is to have a group of cats, preferably tigers..." " They talk to me in a variety of ways, for tigers have many more voices then lions." " He has the sound of friendship a low moan like moo..."

By saying this, it taints his overall opinion on this subject. He also doesn't say whether he's actually seen Khan beat Atlas he just says he thinks that Khan will defend his tigresses, yet we know lions are more aggressive to defend females. The other question would be, how many different tigers and lions did he mix, and for how many acts or years did he do this. Or did he switch to an all tiger act for most of his career?

My question would be, are there any mixed lion tiger trainers that back the tiger, that aren't admittedly bias for the tiger. I think that's an interesting question.

Rishi · 03-30-2017, 10:22 AM

(03-11-2017, 01:33 PM)Spalea Wrote: After having told, page 81, that "Tigers have a far more delicate constitution than lions", (?) Alex Kerr added, page 130, that "A tiger nearly always win a fight with a lion"... I don't know what to think, but that doesn't seem to be coherent. The tigers despite their fragile constitution will rule over all the big cats of the world ? A question of personality perhaps...

I dont think that's what he meant...the next line (@Pckts confirm..i read it in a library) actually says that tigers are difficult to move by ship or air than lions as they tend to get sick...
Which is probably true..with the recent upsurge in tranquilised relocation of stray tigers & reintroduction related translocations in India, it's common for tigers to even die of slightest overdose..or get seriously sick from the journey!!!

Quote:@~~Haymaker~~
By saying this, it taints his overall opinion on this subject. He also doesn't say whether he's actually seen Khan beat Atlas he just says he thinks that Khan will defend his tigresses, yet we know lions are more aggressive to defend females. The other question would be, how many different tigers and lions did he mix, and for how many acts or years did he do this. Or did he switch to an all tiger act for most of his career?

My question would be, are there any mixed lion tiger trainers that back the tiger, that aren't admittedly bias for the tiger. I think that's an interesting question.

See, Clyde Betty was biased for the lion & for good reason (he had this 700lbs hunk called Sultan, who used to beat up his normal tigers)..but that doesnt mean we should just dismiss his thoughts & views.

I'm a sucker for Asiatic lions & having seen them with Tigers or Africans in side-by-side cages, have inferred that they are equally tall & long.
But i don't deny the fact, that they are light & lanky with thinner arms & skinny hindquarters!!!

A man can have preferences & still be unbiased... That's called maturity!!!

~~Haymaker~~ · 03-30-2017, 11:27 AM

Yes but does Beatty ever say he likes lions more, because Ive never seen any quotes that say that. I also don't recall ever hearing that lion Sultan was 700lbs. There's quotes showing Beatty liked tigers more, and quotes showing he thought lions eventually would win in an even match. The question is, is there a mixed lion tiger trainer, that backs the tiger in a fight, and doesn't admit to liking the tiger more. There are many mixed act trainers that back and saw the lion win in fights, one on one, and do not say they like lions more, or even at all.

The tigers in Beatty's act during the time of Sultan were also not normal, they were some of his toughest strongest tigers that he ever had, which is why he said these were no pushovers Sultan defeated.

~~brotherbear~~ · 03-30-2017, 01:16 PM

The topic here is animal trainers. Here again, a few seem to be curving into Lion vs Tiger; the biggest No No here on Wildfacts. Avoid trouble here and discuss the trainers without comparing the big cats one against the other. A friendly word of warning.

Rishi · 03-30-2017, 04:37 PM

About time we returned to topic...

So, i once made this collection of photos from Clyde Beatty's acts & animals by gathering the ones readily available on internet. That I'd like to share.

Although, i found his tiger specimens to be sub-par, that man had an absolutely terrific collection, of the most magnificent lions you'll see!
THE. BEST. EVER.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Although i'm not so sure, the 1st one seems to be his famed "Sultan"...

*This image is copyright of its original author

I don't think he had many Bengals.
Some are clearly Sumatran, rest look like Indochinese (by size). Even today lots of Indochinese/crosses masquerade as Bengals in the West.

*This image is copyright of its original author

FEEL FREE TO ADD MORE IF YOU HAVE THEM!!!..

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