There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(Yesterday, 11:07 PM)sunless Wrote: Saw this on the FB group Lion sightings for the lion dynamics in Manyeleti. Credits to Michelle Stemm from FB
*This image is copyright of its original author
***Updated- Lions of the Manyeleti***
I’ve compiled what I could and then had a lot of help pulling this altogether from the experts including: Ahmed Al Odaini, Aruna Pavithran, Ignacio Alejandro Crea, Gabriel Hitner, Tim Grove, Melanie Boyer, Frankie Kenneth, and Matt Crookes (Guide) who I’m very grateful to.
If I’ve missed anything, or you have more details, please do let me know. The information I’m looking for is the birth month/year, of each individual (if known), who sired them, any individuals I might have missed or that need updating. Prides of Manyeleti: Birmingham Pride (Superpride) - included in Timbavati list
Skorro Pride:
- 12 adult Females
- new cubs Dominant males: Mongawane males - Osindile YBM & Torchwood male, sired by Brutus, Giraffe male; and Nhenha, Birmingham.
Mbiri Pride:
- 5 Females (not sure what happened to the 6th female)
- 1 subadult male
- 1 cub (not seen for a few months, suspected it has not made it) Dominant male/s: TBC Mbiri males (Shaka & Zig Zag) have been with the pride on and off recently. Will need to see how this situation develops in time. Orpen male Nzuri was in a coalition with Mandevu (Tinswalo Coalition) & they were the dominant males of this pride. Notes from Matt: (Mbiri pride has been extremely quiet after the fight with mandevu and the mbiri males. They have been around the north of the Manyeleti and all split up for now.)
Nharhu Pride:
• 5 Females (should be 9 females but it's been very hard to account for all)
-3 Original Matriarchs
1 Thanda Impi
- 5 RR daughters
- 1 subadult male
- 6 cubs with the newest born in February 2025. Dominant male: Red Road Notes from Matt:
1. The pride has split up now due to three females giving birth to cubs. The three females keep all the cubs together. Red road staying with those three females and then going off to patrol his territory. Maybe once a week we see the pride come together.
2. Red Roads son and the female that is collard in the Nharu pride spent a lot of time together and sometimes joined by another female.
3. Last week I had a sighting of the collard female and red road son with another young male. Looked to be smaller than red roads son but I am struggling to ID him at the moment. ***Think this is one of the young Monwana males***
4. Red Roads son that is a little older than the current pride male every now and then visits the Manyeleti but not often.
Imbali Pride:
- 4 Females
- 3 or 4 cubs b. early 2025 or Dec 2024 (s8 daughter is their mother). Dominant males: Mantimahle coalition - (dark maned & ginger)
Male lions and coalitions of Manyeleti:
* Mbiri coalition - 2 males, Zig Zag & Shaka (would not call them Manyeleti just yet. They enter sporadically)
* Tintswalo coalition - 2 males - Mandevu & Nzuri (Orpen male) - as of 5 March 2025 this coalition is no longer with Mandevu losing his life after suffering major injuries from the two Mbiri males. Mandevu was born in early 2016 making him 9 years old & in his prime when he lost his life.
* Mongawane coalition - 2 males, Osindile YBM b. late 2016 & Torchwood male (same as Mbiris. Not really part of Manyeleti)
* Red Road
* Mantimahle Coalition - 2 males, Dark Maned & Ginger
* Monwana males have been in the area lately. Notes from Matt: Monwana males, have moved back toward mbiri pride territory, they have been seen all the way from Tintswalo airstrip to kokhamoya dam. They have been hanging around in the area. They also were in very close proximity to Nzuri a couple days ago. Nzuri roared and there was no response from the Monwana males.
Another extremely helpful post, for everyone, thank you!
Yesterday, 11:17 PM( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 11:19 PM by NLAL11 )
(Yesterday, 10:27 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Nharu pride, including cubs, Red Road male and his son.
I count 6 females (probably also one or more RR daughters), 5 cubs (progressing nicely!). Red Road and his son are chilling in the back.
If there are 6 lionesses (I counted the same) then at least two of them are RR's daughters, as there are only 4 lionesses that are not his offspring - 3 original and 1 Thanda Impi daughter.
(Yesterday, 08:16 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote: What do u guys know about his nomadic years?
When did he leave his pride?
Did he spend nomadic years alone?
Hello,
He was born in Birmingham pride, but his 2 mothers had to breakaway to save him and 2 sisters from Matimbas i think, so they moved closer to Manyeleti and where named Red Road pride.
As they grown, 4 females returned back to Ngala in 2016, RRM stayed and become nomad.
He joined Koppies young male (Mothlawareng male, sired by Matimbas) and form a coalition.
Unfortunatley, in late 2018 they clashed with Avoca/Giraffes 1 night on a kill, Koppies male was not seen after that, he was prob killed by them.
Them in late 2017 by Tintswalo:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Alone, RRM in 2019 started to play hide and seek with Orpen males, jumping and hanging with prides when they where absent, eventually he settled with Nharus, as Orpen males commited north with Koppies and Mbiris.
(Yesterday, 08:16 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote: How many confirmed clashes and against who did he have till now?
Some his famous fights are, with 2 young Tintswalos in 2021, where he was beaten quite badly, but recovered.
Rematch with Mandevu in 2023.
Fight with Kambulas last year.
Prob few more we are not aware of.
(Yesterday, 08:16 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote: Also I heard single males invade other territories to keep them at bay. Does invading other territories really help at keeping rivals at bay if outnumbered?
Showing teeth and confidence prob is good tactic, but also dangerous if it doesnt work.
Thanks for ur insight a lot. U definitely helped me in understanding. Now I understand his journey and the dynamics?.
(Yesterday, 08:47 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote: Is it realistic for red road to leave the nharu pride and take over another pride (nkuhumas, mbiris) with his son in near future? This would combat the issue of inbreeding.
Prob not likely, as RRM is 11 years old, but who knows.
(Yesterday, 08:47 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote: Also how does red roads son stack up in terms of abilities and experience. According to my knowledge, most lions become king at around 5y and nomadic at around 3y. Given that he didn’t spend any nomadic years and didn’t patrol with his father, is he below or above average for a lion his age. Did it hinder his development staying so long with the pride? Is he an viable partner for red road in an clash?
Well yea, he stayed with pride longer then usual, and was under protection of his father for his whole life, so that might be "disadvantage" in some stuffs, as you noticed aswell.
He doesnt have experience in dealing with other males or lions, and still isnt showing any territorial behavior, so if some males invade RRM and Nharus, he will prob not be useful to RRM at this point.
Thanks for ur insight. It makes sense that he may be suboptimal help. Appreciate u dedicating time for answering me.
(Yesterday, 10:59 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Hi @Dangeroscos let me try to answer your questions.
First of all I recommend this video, starting from minute 14:25 for a background story about Red Road. He has been a lone territorial male for basically his whole life but when he was young he had a partner, the young Koppies male. See attached photo (and the video is the source of that photo).
- About his clashes (that I know of). RR is known of his head lock fighting technique and being a very fierce fighting male. At lleast two real fights are confirmed and filmed, one against Mandevu whom he had in a head lock and the other one against the Kambula males. RR obviously does not have the numbers but he uses his Nharu pride / females to his advantage, they often help him in the fight. They did that in the Mandevu fight and also one female helped him against the Kambulas (the fights are on youtube and this thread).
- Other than those two filmed fights, I believe there were strong rumours that he was in a fight with the S8 male (also lone territorial male south of RR's territory). RR probably had multiple fights / chases by the Tintswalo males. During that time the Tintswalo males (3 males) pressured his territory.
- Regarding invading other territories to keep enemies at bay, yes, I believe this can be an effective strategy. In a video of Tintswalo Lodge from a few weeks ago (youtube, look it up and it is also discussed in this thread), they filmed RR returning from Kruger side (east Manyeleti border), with small wounds on his face and legs, indicating he had been in a 2 vs 1 fight. But he returned roaring and nothing serious damage wise, so they said he probably won the 2 vs 1 fight (possibly against competing young males). So for instance what can happen is that a territorial male hears other (young) males roaring in the distance, and decides to check it out. Maybe this happened here.
- However, being a lone male, he of course has to be smart in picking his fights and evading danger. For instance the two Mantimahle lions are relatively close to his territory at the moment, and RR would probably not survive a 2 vs 1 versus those two males.
Being a lone territorial male for like 5+ years he must have had a lot more fights than we know.
- Regarding the possibility of him taking over another pride with his son, I don't know. He is bonding with his son, which is indeed quite old to be still with the pride. His other sons disappeared much earlier. Red Road will get ousted at some point and yes, he could then venture off with his son. As a nomadic duo is then imo more likely than as a territorial duo but we will have to see what happens. It would be good for inbreeding. But for now we must hope that the cubs survive to say 12+ months of age.
- RR son is developing into a big young male. In terms of strength he will probably surpass his father (who is aging, but still in great shape) sooner than later. But yes he lacks the fighting experience of his father of course. Young males like him often are not used to the real dangers yet of other territorial males and then they may flee if they encounter one. He will have to build up this experience before he is a viable fighting partner for his father. But, of course, the son's presence now already helps in protecting the pride (especially the cubs, since the son is not actively on patrols but seems to stay close to the pride all the time).
Thank u very much for ur insightful and dedicated explanation?. Really cool, that his females help him in fights. It’s not common right? Since the manthimale males are 2 and only have the imbali pride, how come they never challenged red road for the nharu pride? The duos of sabi sands all have multiple prides as far as I know. Also the manthimales don’t face much pressure towards the imbali pride as far as I know. (Correct me if I’m wrong)Are they intimidated by his presence? Or are they just not as ambitious as other duo coalitions?
(Yesterday, 10:59 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Hi @Dangeroscos let me try to answer your questions.
First of all I recommend this video, starting from minute 14:25 for a background story about Red Road. He has been a lone territorial male for basically his whole life but when he was young he had a partner, the young Koppies male. See attached photo (and the video is the source of that photo).
- About his clashes (that I know of). RR is known of his head lock fighting technique and being a very fierce fighting male. At lleast two real fights are confirmed and filmed, one against Mandevu whom he had in a head lock and the other one against the Kambula males. RR obviously does not have the numbers but he uses his Nharu pride / females to his advantage, they often help him in the fight. They did that in the Mandevu fight and also one female helped him against the Kambulas (the fights are on youtube and this thread).
- Other than those two filmed fights, I believe there were strong rumours that he was in a fight with the S8 male (also lone territorial male south of RR's territory). RR probably had multiple fights / chases by the Tintswalo males. During that time the Tintswalo males (3 males) pressured his territory.
- Regarding invading other territories to keep enemies at bay, yes, I believe this can be an effective strategy. In a video of Tintswalo Lodge from a few weeks ago (youtube, look it up and it is also discussed in this thread), they filmed RR returning from Kruger side (east Manyeleti border), with small wounds on his face and legs, indicating he had been in a 2 vs 1 fight. But he returned roaring and nothing serious damage wise, so they said he probably won the 2 vs 1 fight (possibly against competing young males). So for instance what can happen is that a territorial male hears other (young) males roaring in the distance, and decides to check it out. Maybe this happened here.
- However, being a lone male, he of course has to be smart in picking his fights and evading danger. For instance the two Mantimahle lions are relatively close to his territory at the moment, and RR would probably not survive a 2 vs 1 versus those two males.
Being a lone territorial male for like 5+ years he must have had a lot more fights than we know.
- Regarding the possibility of him taking over another pride with his son, I don't know. He is bonding with his son, which is indeed quite old to be still with the pride. His other sons disappeared much earlier. Red Road will get ousted at some point and yes, he could then venture off with his son. As a nomadic duo is then imo more likely than as a territorial duo but we will have to see what happens. It would be good for inbreeding. But for now we must hope that the cubs survive to say 12+ months of age.
- RR son is developing into a big young male. In terms of strength he will probably surpass his father (who is aging, but still in great shape) sooner than later. But yes he lacks the fighting experience of his father of course. Young males like him often are not used to the real dangers yet of other territorial males and then they may flee if they encounter one. He will have to build up this experience before he is a viable fighting partner for his father. But, of course, the son's presence now already helps in protecting the pride (especially the cubs, since the son is not actively on patrols but seems to stay close to the pride all the time).
His fighting technique really is impressive. A genius amongst lions I think, as I never heard of a lion having a certain technique in combination with impressive feats to back them up.
Since red road male, orsindi, Birmingham coalition, northern and southern matimbas come from Birmingham pride, what makes this pride such a unique talent hotbed?
Mbiri and nharu pride of manyeleti are break aways of Birmingham pride aswell, as far as I know. Do u see them producing the same high level talents like Birmingham pride?
Mbiri males and tinswalo males come from Mbiri pride aswell I think.
How come certain prides disproportionally produce high level lion talents at consistent rate?
Saw this on the FB group Lion sightings for the lion dynamics in Manyeleti.
Credits to Michelle Stemm from FB
*This image is copyright of its original author
***Updated- Lions of the Manyeleti***
I’ve compiled what I could and then had a lot of help pulling this altogether from the experts including: Ahmed Al Odaini, Aruna Pavithran, Ignacio Alejandro Crea, Gabriel Hitner, Tim Grove, Melanie Boyer, Frankie Kenneth, and Matt Crookes (Guide) who I’m very grateful to.
If I’ve missed anything, or you have more details, please do let me know. The information I’m looking for is the birth month/year, of each individual (if known), who sired them, any individuals I might have missed or that need updating.
Prides of Manyeleti:
Birmingham Pride (Superpride) - included in Timbavati list
Skorro Pride:
- 12 adult Females
- new cubs
Dominant males: Mongawane males - Osindile YBM & Torchwood male, sired by Brutus, Giraffe male; and Nhenha, Birmingham.
Mbiri Pride:
- 5 Females (not sure what happened to the 6th female)
- 1 subadult male
- 1 cub (not seen for a few months, suspected it has not made it)
Dominant male/s: TBC Mbiri males (Shaka & Zig Zag) have been with the pride on and off recently. Will need to see how this situation develops in time. Orpen male Nzuri was in a coalition with Mandevu (Tinswalo Coalition) & they were the dominant males of this pride.
Notes from Matt: (Mbiri pride has been extremely quiet after the fight with mandevu and the mbiri males. They have been around the north of the Manyeleti and all split up for now.)
Nharhu Pride:
• 5 Females (should be 9 females but it's been very hard to account for all)
-3 Original Matriarchs
1 Thanda Impi
- 5 RR daughters
- 1 subadult male
- 6 cubs with the newest born in February 2025.
Dominant male: Red Road
Notes from Matt:
1. The pride has split up now due to three females giving birth to cubs. The three females keep all the cubs together. Red road staying with those three females and then going off to patrol his territory. Maybe once a week we see the pride come together.
2. Red Roads son and the female that is collard in the Nharu pride spent a lot of time together and sometimes joined by another female.
3. Last week I had a sighting of the collard female and red road son with another young male. Looked to be smaller than red roads son but I am struggling to ID him at the moment. ***Think this is one of the young Monwana males***
4. Red Roads son that is a little older than the current pride male every now and then visits the Manyeleti but not often.
Imbali Pride:
- 4 Females
- 3 or 4 cubs b. early 2025 or Dec 2024 (s8 daughter is their mother).
* Mbiri coalition - 2 males, Zig Zag & Shaka (would not call them Manyeleti just yet. They enter sporadically)
* Tintswalo coalition - 2 males - Mandevu & Nzuri (Orpen male) - as of 5 March 2025 this coalition is no longer with Mandevu losing his life after suffering major injuries from the two Mbiri males. Mandevu was born in early 2016 making him 9 years old & in his prime when he lost his life.
* Mongawane coalition - 2 males, Osindile YBM b. late 2016 & Torchwood male (same as Mbiris. Not really part of Manyeleti)
* Red Road
* Mantimahle Coalition - 2 males, Dark Maned & Ginger
* Monwana males have been in the area lately.
Notes from Matt: Monwana males, have moved back toward mbiri pride territory, they have been seen all the way from Tintswalo airstrip to kokhamoya dam. They have been hanging around in the area. They also were in very close proximity to Nzuri a couple days ago. Nzuri roared and there was no response from the Monwana males.
Thanks for this wonderful overview. A lot of helpful information here?.
(Yesterday, 08:16 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote: Hey guys, I wanted to know if red road male is known to be a good hunter?
What do u guys know about his nomadic years?
When did he leave his pride?
Did he spend nomadic years alone?
How many confirmed clashes and against who did he have till now?
Also I heard single males invade other territories to keep them at bay. Does invading other territories really help at keeping rivals at bay if outnumbered?
Really curious to know as much as possible about lions. So I appreciate any insight.
Hello @Dangeroscos, and welcome to WildFact. You did indeed ask a lot of questions. For your answers, given the volume of questions you asked, while waiting to see if anyone might answer them for you, I'd recommend reading through the Manyeleti thread.
As we do with all new members, I'll ask that you read through our rules section, which I will link at the bottom of this post. I will also link to the tutorial section, which will show you how to perform the most common tasks on the site. If you have any questions, feel free to contact any of the Mod Team, and we will be happy to assist. In the mean time, enjoy the site, we look forward to your contributions.
12 Adults skorro females wow are they gonna be considered a super pride in the future and I wonder how many of those females are sired by shaka and scar
Today, 06:48 AM( This post was last modified: Today, 06:52 AM by FACR2212 )
(Yesterday, 11:17 PM)NLAL11 Wrote:
(Yesterday, 10:27 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Nharu pride, including cubs, Red Road male and his son.
I count 6 females (probably also one or more RR daughters), 5 cubs (progressing nicely!). Red Road and his son are chilling in the back.
If there are 6 lionesses (I counted the same) then at least two of them are RR's daughters, as there are only 4 lionesses that are not his offspring - 3 original and 1 Thanda Impi daughter.
Edit: Lol see the post above mine.
The old female with broken tail/silver eye (14-15 years old) is mother of 3 cubs, she is always with a middle aged female who has 2 cubs (by elimination, Tintswalo daughter, 8-9 years old). There is another young female with 1 cub (RRM daughter?) that has been seen with the other 2 mothers. The remaining females are usually with RRM son, but none of them seem to be old... So I strongly suspect that two of old females passed away...
14 minutes ago( This post was last modified: 14 minutes ago by BA0701 )
(29 minutes ago)sunless Wrote:
(1 hour ago)afortich Wrote: Red Road's young son & the Mbiri young boy with the Mbiri Pride
Red Road Son really looks alike to K5 and the Mbiri Young Male have an injury on his right armpit area, seems to be from a horn or tusk.
I noticed that as well, even some swelling when you see if from the other side. As he said in the video, he seems to have eaten, so perhaps a warthog or wildebeest encounter. I am just really happy to see him return to the pride.
The following 1 user Likes BA0701's post:1 user Likes BA0701's post • sunless
