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10-26-2024, 11:12 PM( This post was last modified: 10-26-2024, 11:21 PM by Duco Ndona )
Both of the attacked cubs where male. So the continual existence of the the pride is not more at risk than it was last week..
Infact, in a dark way its odds have even improved as they wont have to spend any energy and resources in raising cubs that would have left the pride later anyway.
(10-26-2024, 11:12 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Both of the attacked cubs where male. So the continual existence of the the pride is not more at risk than it was last week..
Infact, in a dark way its odds have even improved as they wont have to spend any energy and resources in raising cubs that would have left the pride later anyway.
I agree that this many females still being alive is a small positive to take from this, would have been much worse if it was more of a split between the two genders.
I was more trying to get at the fact that this pride doesn’t have any help from PCMs and not only do they constantly have nomads in their territory, now it’s also clear they’re getting pressured by a neighbouring pride. We can’t be sure the losses will stop at this.
(10-26-2024, 11:12 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Both of the attacked cubs where male. So the continual existence of the the pride is not more at risk than it was last week..
Infact, in a dark way its odds have even improved as they wont have to spend any energy and resources in raising cubs that would have left the pride later anyway.
It is sad. Young male was son of the oldest lioness, and loved seeing him. They use to be 10. Now they are six. What you are saying is like lioness thinking of themselves; having their daughters to help. Their daughters may also separate. Young cub was son of older lioness not the two younger sisters of Kambula lionesses and not Birmingham daughters cubs. Their success is both; their genes are in both male lions and females. They had many cubs now it is really looking they are abandoned. Heartbreaking when lions are abandoned there are 4 Styxt young lionesses now with cubs and one older adult Birmingham daughter they are five, and the young Styxt male lion with K12. Styxt lions were also a lot of lions. There was also an older lioness and a relative of the two younger sisters of Kambulas. It looks like they are doing good around many lions, but they are doing good. Hopefully is meant to be and young lioness get stronger and resisist.
(10-26-2024, 11:57 PM)KM600 Wrote: I was more trying to get at the fact that this pride doesn’t have any help from PCMs and not only do they constantly have nomads in their territory, now it’s also clear they’re getting pressured by a neighbouring pride. We can’t be sure the losses will stop at this.
Well, I wouldnt put all the blame on PCMs, Mhangenis are "weird" pride for almost a decade, even when they where under teritorial males, they act like they are nomads.
Since 2018, Mhangeni pride rised only 1 lion to adulthood, Tinya, since 2016 only 3, who are currently alive.
In that span of almost 9 years, they prob lost 30+ cubs.
So its not like they where successful pride in rising offspring before PCMs.
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10-27-2024, 01:13 PM( This post was last modified: 10-27-2024, 02:41 PM by Duco Ndona )
If it was due to moving around a lot, we would expect most of the death to occur in the first months of the cubs life due to exposure and exhaustion, while most make it to an older age and die in conflicts. All prides travel large distances anyway so I doubt that is the issue.
There typically are cycles in these things. Males take over, mate and are territorial, before eventually being ousted or moving on themselves. This typically lasts around two to three years, which aligns itself with the prides cycle of entering estrus, giving birth and raising the next generation of lions. Sometimes males are removed before this time, but then the cubs are killed by the next males, which realignes the cycles again.
In the Mangheni case, they had some incredible bad luck if it comes to pride males. Which either abandoned them, got defeaten in a take over or otherwise died too soo.
Each time, he cubs never died in the process leaving the pride and territorial male cycles misaligned. So rather than profiting from the new territorial males from the start to the end of their average 3 year reign they avoid them for a few years to raise the current litter.
Which is extremely difficult in these conditions so rarely with success.
By the time they are ready to mate. The males themselves are already either nearing the end of their reign, or have expanded in the west or north and found other for them more interesting prides.
Leaving the pride again in a bad position and the situation repeats itself.
Still, they are doing much better than the west, where both the Othawas and Ximhungwes experienced a near complete wipeout. Not to mention that if some of the female cubs make it, they will have plenty of young lionesses to be a force to be reckon with.
With some luck, they then gain new territorial males in the right moment of their cyclus so the two cycles realign again and they can leave this bad era behind.
The problem with the mhangenis is that they are no longer an aggressive pride anymore they killed ridenose and amber eyes when they had 5 females but ever since they lost their old matriarchs they lost that aggressiveness I wouldn’t say it’s all of the plains camp males but they still have the largest pride in the west but are being bullied by a smaller pride as of right now for some reason
(10-27-2024, 10:11 PM)Ttimemarti Wrote: The problem with the mhangenis is that they are no longer an aggressive pride anymore they killed ridenose and amber eyes when they had 5 females but ever since they lost their old matriarchs they lost that aggressiveness I wouldn’t say it’s all of the plains camp males but they still have the largest pride in the west but are being bullied by a smaller pride as of right now for some reason
In my opinion, something seemed to have changed after they lost OM, who I do not believe was ever known as an overly aggressive male so that pairing always seemed like a gathering of opposites to me. But, after his passing, they were actually driven off of one of their own kills by three young female subs. Sassy was with the young Othawas at that time as well, but she remained back in the bushes, while the young subs just walked in and started eating. That situation has been discussed here, quite a bit, with the predominant opinion being that the Manghenis simply were unaware that the Tumbelas were no longer with the Othawas, and they had cubs to worry about, so they simply chose to be safe and retreated from the kill, giving it to the Othawas. But it has always stuck with me, as given the history of the Manghenis, their history of being very aggressive, it seemed very strange. Since then, we have only seen glimpses of their previous levels of aggression.
10-28-2024, 01:06 AM( This post was last modified: 10-28-2024, 01:07 AM by BA0701 )
(10-27-2024, 11:53 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its much easier to be aggressive when you are the attacking party and not caught by surprise. Which probably also explains some things.
An honest question, not trying to be facetious or argumentative in any way. Do you think the current aggressive queens, the Ximungwes, would retreat from their own kill at the sight of three young females? The way those two have acted recently, I am not sure they'd be easy to push off of a kill by anyone, males included. I think they might be forced to retreat, eventually, but it would take a lot more than 3 young females walking in to do it.
In my opinion, losing OM seems to have changed them, taken away some level of confidence, perhaps. If they had pride males who were present more, I don't think it would take much for that confidence to return. OM was present, spending time with them, a lot. In my observations that seems to have been when things got different for them anyhow. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I see the situation.
Very true but what I’m saying is i think they lost leadership with the old mapogo girls and the plains camp males are gone. The mhangenis with the othawa male attacked the othawa pride even tho the othawa male didn’t really attack his natal pride he was present and yes after the othawa male was killed i think they just tried to avoid other lions to protect the cubs they did their best but I think the plains camp males got the last young female I’m not sure but now same thing they lost their mothers the leaders and the cubs fathers aren’t with them so who’s gonna step up and be the lead lioness of the pride I guess but yeah they could’ve gotten surprised
10-28-2024, 01:29 AM( This post was last modified: 10-28-2024, 08:09 PM by BA0701 )
(10-28-2024, 01:11 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Very true but what I’m saying is i think they lost leadership with the old mapogo girls and the plains camp males are gone. The mhangenis with the othawa male attacked the othawa pride even tho the othawa male didn’t really attack his natal pride he was present and yes after the othawa male was killed i think they just tried to avoid other lions to protect the cubs they did their best but I think the plains camp males got the last young female I’m not sure but now same thing they lost their mothers the leaders and the cubs fathers aren’t with them so who’s gonna step up and be the lead lioness of the pride I guess but yeah they could’ve gotten surprised
There is no telling, who it will be that steps up, but once one of these lionesses steps up, the entire dynamics and attitude of the pride may well be altered forever. It is really anyone's guess. Such changes happen all the time in wolf packs, for instance, where the loss of the alpha can often change the pack entirely, same with Painted Wolves as well. I agree entirely, though, the loss of such experienced leaders as the two older lionesses, could also be a huge factor in their losing some confidence, especially leaders whose tenure is as long as those two had.
(10-28-2024, 01:11 AM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Very true but what I’m saying is i think they lost leadership with the old mapogo girls and the plains camp males are gone. The mhangenis with the othawa male attacked the othawa pride even tho the othawa male didn’t really attack his natal pride he was present and yes after the othawa male was killed i think they just tried to avoid other lions to protect the cubs they did their best but I think the plains camp males got the last young female I’m not sure but now same thing they lost their mothers the leaders and the cubs fathers aren’t with them so who’s gonna step up and be the lead lioness of the pride I guess but yeah they could’ve gotten surprised
There is no telling, who it will be that steps up, but once one of these lionesses steps up, the entire dynamics and attitude of the pride may well be altered forever. It is really anyone's guess. Such changes happen all the time in wolf packs, for instance, where the loss of the alpha can often change the pride entirely, same with Painted Wolves as well. I agree entirely, though, the loss of such experienced leaders as the two older lionesses, could also be a huge factor in their losing some confidence, especially leaders whose tenure is as long as those two had.
10-28-2024, 04:04 AM( This post was last modified: 10-28-2024, 04:07 AM by Duco Ndona )
(10-28-2024, 01:06 AM)BA0701 Wrote:
(10-27-2024, 11:53 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its much easier to be aggressive when you are the attacking party and not caught by surprise. Which probably also explains some things.
An honest question, not trying to be facetious or argumentative in any way. Do you think the current aggressive queens, the Ximungwes, would retreat from their own kill at the sight of three young females? The way those two have acted recently, I am not sure they'd be easy to push off of a kill by anyone, males included. I think they might be forced to retreat, eventually, but it would take a lot more than 3 young females walking in to do it.
In my opinion, losing OM seems to have changed them, taken away some level of confidence, perhaps. If they had pride males who were present more, I don't think it would take much for that confidence to return. OM was present, spending time with them, a lot. In my observations that seems to have been when things got different for them anyhow. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I see the situation.
Who knows? We like to categorize groups as agressive or defensive and compare numbers as if the two prides are teams in a soccer match. But the wild is a lot more chaotic than a sports field. If something were to surprise and spook the Ximhungwe enough, they will bolt, even if it was just a small cheetah. Animals dont like uncertainty but embrace the element of surprise and opportunity when it suits them. Afteral, how many times have we read here that a much smaller group chases of a bigger group, with occasionally the later than realizing they have numberal advantage and turn the tables.
We also know next to nothing about this attack. Everyone just assumes that just two Ximhungwes just decided to launch an assault on the entire pride one day and somehow seriously mauled two of them without getting hurt. But in my opinion, the two males were more likely seperated from the pride, offering an opportunity that the Ximhungwes took before fleeing from the rest of the pride.
And while the Mangheni are obviously in a adjustment period after the oldest members died. (I doubt losing OM impacted them that much in that aspect). I would not underestimate the pride as things are right now.
If the roles were to reverse, I doubt they will shy away from killing a Ximhungwe cub.
(10-27-2024, 11:53 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its much easier to be aggressive when you are the attacking party and not caught by surprise. Which probably also explains some things.
An honest question, not trying to be facetious or argumentative in any way. Do you think the current aggressive queens, the Ximungwes, would retreat from their own kill at the sight of three young females? The way those two have acted recently, I am not sure they'd be easy to push off of a kill by anyone, males included. I think they might be forced to retreat, eventually, but it would take a lot more than 3 young females walking in to do it.
In my opinion, losing OM seems to have changed them, taken away some level of confidence, perhaps. If they had pride males who were present more, I don't think it would take much for that confidence to return. OM was present, spending time with them, a lot. In my observations that seems to have been when things got different for them anyhow. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I see the situation.
Who knows? We like to categorize groups as agressive or defensive and compare numbers as if the two prides are teams in a soccer match. But the wild is a lot more chaotic than a sports field. If something were to surprise and spook the Ximhungwe enough, they will bolt, even if it was just a small cheetah. Animals dont like uncertainty but embrace the element of surprise and opportunity when it suits them. Afteral, how many times have we read here that a much smaller group chases of a bigger group, with occasionally the later than realizing they have numberal advantage and turn the tables.
We also know next to nothing about this attack. Everyone just assumes that just two Ximhungwes just decided to launch an assault on the entire pride one day and somehow seriously mauled two of them without getting hurt. But in my opinion, the two males were more likely seperated from the pride, offering an opportunity that the Ximhungwes took before fleeing from the rest of the pride.
And while the Mangheni are obviously in a adjustment period after the oldest members died. (I doubt losing OM impacted them that much in that aspect). I would not underestimate the pride as things are right now.
If the roles were to reverse, I doubt they will shy away from killing a Ximhungwe cub.
A perfect example would be the two Ottawas a year or so ago giving chase to the Manghenis, only to Manghenis realise there were just two sub adult female and reverse the roles
