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Mangheni Pride
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 (07-22-2024, 06:46 AM)Mapokser Wrote: PCM are failing at their job badly, the Mangheni pride is free real estate, the only reason the cubs are still alive is because they have been luck, if Nkuhuma and Talamati males were there for example, it'd be over. Its not failing their job. Coalitions abandoning former pride for new territory and pride is normal behavior which pretty much every coalition does (those ones which can expand). Also, if some coalitions start attacking Mhangenis, that would make some noise, and possibly reaction from PCMs, who are not that far away. Females would also not be so friendly against those males neither. 
That something is normal male lion behavoir does not mean its good behavoir if it comes to fulfilling their role in the social structure of lions.
As a coalition, they are very successful, but for the prides they take over, they are unreliable defenders and that may end up putting a dent in their success if one counts by cubs reaching adulthood later.. This behavoir helps prevent powerfull coalitions from fathering every cub in a region and reducing the genetic diversity. Unfortunately its not the prettiest behavoirs.
They lost 2 males:
Credits: Savanna  *This image is copyright of its original author 1 of PCMs is also not far away with Ximhungwe pride.  (07-22-2024, 02:37 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: They lost 2 males:The Mhangeni lionesses are doing a phenomenal job but the PCMs need to return ASAP and re-establish their dominance in the area. These constant incursions by strange male lions in Mhangeni territory can only go on for so long before some of the cubs become casualties. 
@Warpath Because this is their job, the reason why males fail is not always due to a lack of strength, it could also be a lack of interest, brains or just bad luck.
@Tr1x24 I never said coalitions abandoning their former prides is anormal, but successful coalitions generally only do that when their cubs reach adulthood or at least independence. PCM abandoned ten 1yo cubs and their biggest pride, which is also more uncommon, generally males prioritize their biggest, strongest pride, for obvious reasons. For now PCM abandoned 1yo cubs from 2 different prides which raises the question, will they ever grant protection to any cub till adulthopd or independence or their legacy will depend on luck to survive? It's like Ndona said, just because something is normal behaviour it doesn't mean it's good. Everything Mapogo did was normal, but was it good for their legacy and the growth of the lion population? Nope. Of course you could say PCM don't care and are living a perfectly happy life, which is fair enough, but my point stands, for the lion social structure to work and the species to thrive you need males that properly fulfill their roles to grant a safe environment for cubs to grow, otherwise PCM will live their happy life but there will be no new generation to do the same after them. (07-22-2024, 08:57 PM)Mapokser Wrote: but successful coalitions generally only do that when their cubs reach adulthood or at least independence. Not true exactly. Majingas and Bboys are one of most successul coalitions in Kruger (for what we know) and they did basically the same. Majingas abandoned Fourways, Tsalalas and Spartas, while Bboys abandoned Nkuhumas, Torchwoods and Styxs, all before their offspring reached adulthood and independence (no offspring from those named prides where 2 yrs old before that happened). And theres countless other examples, most recently in Sabi Sand where Ndhzengas, who abandoned Styxs when their offspring was not even 1 yrs old. You are talking about coalitions who cant expand (because of strenght, numbers, strong neighbours etc.) , so they stay with their pride and offspring for longer time, but they are not doing that because they want to rise their offspring to adulthood. N.Avocas would abandon NKs aswell in 2020/21 if they could completly defeat 2 Bboys,but they couldnt, so they stayed with NK, they didnt stayed to secure their offspring adulthood. Male lions and coalitions dont work like that. 
Wait wait the avoca couldn’t beat the nwaswitshaka males not the Birminghams Nwaswitshaka are the reason they returned to the nkuhuma pride not Birmingham males plus tinyo was gone
While its true that it was the Nwas that eventually forced the avocas to abandon their attempts, as the BBoys and Kambulas kept avoiding the Avocas all the Avocas ever won was empty land. They never had much success eliminating the males or taking the lionesses.
So their whole takeover attempt is considered one big fiasco. 
Tinya and cubs
Mangheni cub (07-23-2024, 02:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: @criollo2mil do we know sexes of 10 cubs? 5F & 5M (07-22-2024, 10:24 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(07-22-2024, 08:57 PM)Mapokser Wrote: but successful coalitions generally only do that when their cubs reach adulthood or at least independence. This is not accurate. Majingis sired their Tsalala cubs in 2011 and only abandoned Londolozi in 2014 after ousting the Selatis. They did abandon 4ways and Sparta but where exactly was their biggest legacy again? Not 1 or 2 cubs in their sidekick prides, but their biggest impact? The pride they spent the most time with: Mangheni, which resulted in 11 cubs that reached adulthood and 10 more that reached subadulthood ( and would have survived if their fathers had not died of old age ), they controlled the Mangheni pride for some 5,5 years. They also got at least IIRC 4 cubs from the Tsalala pride to adulthood, and it was a small pride of just 2 females. Same for the Bboys, what was their biggest legacy again? 12 cubs in the Kambula pride, the pride they spent the most time with by far, controlling them from 2018 to 2021 when they got ousted. And what about Matimbas? Even more successful than these 2, they controlled prides like Mbiri and Nkuhuma for many many years and sired 2 regeneration of cubs in some of their prides. You talk about the Ndhzengas like if they had not been luck, if the Gijimas weren't extra tolerant towards subadults, the Ndhzengas would have no offspring alive at all outside the Kambula/Ntsevu prides, most other males in their place would have killed the 2 Southern subadults and would have hunted down the Styx subs, the pride would meet a similar fate to the Othawa and Talamati after Tumbelas/S8 died. Hell the Styx lost more than half their cubs despite the Gijimas not hunting them down. It's a simple fact that any lion researcher will tell you: cubs are not generally successfully raised without a constant protection from strong males. We see that all the time. Why aren't any of S8's offspring alive? Why only 2 Othawas miraculously survived? According to you they should have been fine without fathers at 1,5yo since even 1yo cubs should be fine being abandoned by their fathers. You also say that coalitions don't work like that, but then why Matimbas sired 2 generations of Mbiris? Why Majingilane sired 2 generations of Manghenis and 2 generations of Othawas? Both coalitions had the strength to do anything they want, but still they spent many years with single prides and sired more than 1 generation. (07-24-2024, 08:39 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Majingis sired their Tsalala cubs in 2011 and only abandoned Londolozi in 2014 after ousting the Selatis. Their offspring in Tsalala pride was born in 2013, and got abandoned in 2014. (07-24-2024, 08:39 AM)Mapokser Wrote: It's a simple fact that any lion researcher will tell you: cubs are not generally successfully raised without a constant protection from strong males. This is not what i said lol, ofc that cubs will have more success under protection.. Im just saying that abandoning cubs at young age is normal behavior for male coalitions (I didnt said its GOOD behaviour for the offspring) especially powerful coalition who can expand easily. Just put it on paper, how many of those coalitions you named, abandoned prides and young offspring, and with how many they stayed and sired 2nd generation (because they had no other option) and you will see. Both Majingas and Bboys sired 2nd generation in those prides because they where getting old, weaker in numbers and had no better options, so they stayed there. They didnt stayed because they wanted to protect their 1st offspring to reach adulthood, if that would be the case, they would not abandom all those former prides and their young offspring before that, would they?
2013 Tsalala cubs were a second generation, first generation was born in 2011, which shows they properly raised 1 generation and it goes against your point that males will always abandon 1yo vubs if they can.
I also never said that abandoning 1yo cubs is abnormal behavior, but if you agree it is not good then we're not in disagreement. My point is just that coalitions, regardless of strength, will often properly raise cubs and therefore have morr success than if they abandon 1yo cubs after 1yo cubs. Your claim that they couldn't expand because they were old doesn't hold. Bboys could easily take over Mangheni pride from OM but never pressured him and the pride even after killing OM in Bboy territory. Majingilane could do anything they wanted, they were by far the strongest coalition and the only ones who technically would be stronger, the Bboys, were dead afraid of Majingis and would run from them even in their own territory and with more numbers, they never made claims in the east until the Majingilanes died, before that Majingis were expanding back to the east to take over their Kambula daughters. Also lions are not machines to think in a completely logical way "well I abandoned first generation of 4ways cubs so I'll abandon all other cubs from my other prides", that's not how it works, they shift their territories depending on a lot of reasons like number of females in the pride or the availability of food. Majingilane had no reason to necessarily remain with Mangheni pride for 5,5 years, but did anyway. |
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