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The Matimba coalition
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 (11-18-2022, 01:26 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(11-18-2022, 05:41 AM)Mapokser Wrote: ( and Ginger? Dunno if they're littermates but the the 2 youngest splitting from the 3 older brothers makes sense ) TLDR: Two lions sharing the same face shape means nothing with regards to paternity. A DNA test is required to establish accurate genealogy. @Tr1x24 We "talked" about this recently in a different thread but reiterating it here to spread the info. There is a phenomenon where a female can carry the offspring of multiple males at the same time. It's called heteropaternal superfecundation. "Heteropaternal superfecundation is referred to as a form of atypical twinning where, genetically, the twins are half siblings – sharing the same mother, but with different fathers." HB and Ginger could very well have been 1/2 brother littermates with 2 different fathers while White Face was Ginger's half-brother with the same father from a different mother. And as you said in a different post, lions develop differently so HB, G, and White Face could have all been littermates with 3 different fathers with White Face's different combo of genes causing him to develop faster (hybrid vigor). Or they could be from 3 different litters with three different fathers and the similarity in face shape was passed down from their grandfather or grandmother. Genetics is very complicated, and complexity increases with every potential parent that's added to the equation. I'm NOT a genetics expert, just bringing up some points I remember from biology class. But one thing I'm certain of is that physical traits aren't always passed down "evenly." Think of face shape, manes, overall size, etc. the same way we think of the white lion, or leucistic, gene. The Ross Males and Birmingham Pride have produced two white offspring, but we don't expect them all to be white. There are a whole lot of ingredients in the sauce that determine what an individual looks like. Anyone with more knowledge please feel free to jump in.  (02-18-2023, 12:45 PM)DE_66 Wrote: @Tr1x24 We "talked" about this recently in a different thread but reiterating it here to spread the info. There is a phenomenon where a female can carry the offspring of multiple males at the same time. It's called heteropaternal superfecundation. "Heteropaternal superfecundation is referred to as a form of atypical twinning where, genetically, the twins are half siblings – sharing the same mother, but with different fathers." Yea this can happen, but its not so common. Similarity in face structure, and comparing it to their fathers, its the best way to determinante who sired who, without having access to DNA tests, although in some cases its hard to do so.  (02-18-2023, 12:45 PM)DE_66 Wrote: HB and Ginger could very well have been 1/2 brother littermates with 2 different fathers while White Face was Ginger's half-brother with the same father from a different mother. And as you said in a different post, lions develop differently so HB, G, and White Face could have all been littermates with 3 different fathers with White Face's different combo of genes causing him to develop faster (hybrid vigor)From wikipedia: "This is an extremely rare occurrence in humans and is known as heteropaternal superfecundation. We don't know exactly how often this occurs and cases only arise when suspicious family members request DNA testing. But one study estimated that it might occur in as many as one in 400 (0.25%) twin births in the US" Sounds like very rare even yet you are talking about it like it is commonly happening all around... (02-18-2023, 01:14 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Not so common in humans. Much more common in animals due to breeding habits. Face structure analysis = opinion only. Nothing wrong with opinion, but opinions are not facts. Instead of correcting another user with your opinion as you did in post #1,813, "HB and Ginger where not littermates, Ginger and White Face where prob, based of face similarity," you should preface your statement with "in my opinion" or "I think." You are top contributor and well-respected member of the forum. Newer users will hold your posts in higher regard (speaking from personal experience. I've learned a lot about different prides and coalitions from senior members such as yourself). If new users don't know anything about genetics, then they could accept what you say as fact when it is just speculation. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but I keep bringing this up because I've seen you correct other users multiple times based solely on speculation as if it was fact. The only reason I'm doing it in the thread instead of a DM is because you aren't the only user who uses face shape, etc. to correct others opinons about paternity as if what you're saying is fact. None of us know more who HB and Ginger's father(s) was(were) than they do themselves. We can speculate until our fingers fall off, but it's just speculation, not fact. It shouldn't be presented as such. (02-18-2023, 01:27 PM)Potato Wrote: From wikipedia:Heteropaternal superfecundation frequently occurs in multiple‐bearing mob‐mated sheep - Berry - 2020 - Animal Genetics - Wiley Online Library Extremely rare in humans. It's more common in animals. There is more research available on the subject with regards to animals. (02-18-2023, 01:35 PM)DE_66 Wrote: Face structure analysis = opinion only. Nothing wrong with opinion, but opinions are not facts. Instead of correcting another user with your opinion as you did in post #1,813, "HB and Ginger where not littermates, Ginger and White Face where prob, based of face similarity," you should preface your statement with "in my opinion" or "I think." You are top contributor and well-respected member of the forum. Newer users will hold your posts in higher regard (speaking from personal experience. I've learned a lot about different prides and coalitions from senior members such as yourself). If new users don't know anything about genetics, then they could accept what you say as fact when it is just speculation. Ok, so its my opinion that HB and Ginger where not littermates, based of that Ginger looks more similar to WhiteFace, and he looks to be a bit older then HB. Also, face structure analysis = opinion only is what I disagree, in some cases its very strong, 100% evidence, who sired who. Here is an example, HB and SlitNose :  *This image is copyright of its original author And here are 2/3 their fathers :  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Its clear who sired who, to the point that its not "opinion" and speculation , yet pretty much fact. And I can find many many more examples of it, but ofc, in some cases we cant determinante who sired who based of looks. (02-18-2023, 01:48 PM)DE_66 Wrote: Heteropaternal superfecundation frequently occurs in multiple‐bearing mob‐mated sheep - Berry - 2020 - Animal Genetics - Wiley Online LibraryWell, humans are animals too. Of course it can be more common at some species (like sheeps) than at others (like humans) depending from their breeding habits through are lions habits in fact more similar to those of sheeps or to those of humans? Male lions does not share the females. If one male will get female in oestrus then he will be keeping any other male at bay, fighting him off if need to. Bassicaly the only case where more males will mate with a same female will be if lion x mates with a females, then lion y, chase off lion x from the female and then mates with her. All in all still at lion species Heteropaternal superfecundation should be very, very uncommon to happen. (02-18-2023, 01:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Ok, so its my opinion that HB and Ginger where not littermates, based of that Ginger looks more similar to WhiteFace, and he looks to be a bit older then HB. I definitely respect your eyes when it comes to lion IDs. Numerous times you've pulled up an obscure picture and IDed a lion off of ear nicks and whisker pattersn that I can barely see. That skill is highly useful for identifying an individual lion, but we can't trust it for determining paternity because of the way genes work. And all lions look so much alike. Wasn't it just last week that many members (myself included) thought that video was of Nhena. After someone pointed out the scars and age don't seem match, most of us got confused. I'm still not sure and I watched it several times. There's been other times when a Masai Mara lion has been misidentified as a KNP lion and vice versa. If we're having troulbe IDing living lions, how can we determine who they sired based off looks? We haven't even brought up the mothers' genes in all of this. Tinyo wasn't a Skybed son, but, thanks to his mothers, he had that Skybed look IMO. None of the West Street Males had mohawks, but Mr. T did. None of the Matimbas had a mohawk, but Mohawk Mbiri does. None of the Mayambula Coalition has a mohawk even though one of their fathers does. The Ross Males aren't exactly big lions, but IMO some of their sons look like they're gonna be pretty big thanks to those Old Birmingham Males and Skybed genes. (02-18-2023, 02:55 PM)DE_66 Wrote: I definitely respect your eyes when it comes to lion IDs. Numerous times you've pulled up an obscure picture and IDed a lion off of ear nicks and whisker pattersn that I can barely see. That skill is highly useful for identifying an individual lion, but we can't trust it for determining paternity because of the way genes work. Im talking about specific cases. Where we know who are the fathers or who, so we can determinante which males sired which son, based of looks. Im not talking about claiming that 1 lion sired another because they are similar, when they have no connections and are in different parts of Kruger. Ofc there are similar, unrelated lions in Kruger, that doesnt mean they are related, just as there is some twin humans out there who look just like me and you. Im not saying that Nhenha sired Maputo male because they are similar lol. Im saying that when we know that Nhenha sired Kambula young males, we can see which male he sired, if some of them are more similar to him or his brothers. (02-18-2023, 02:55 PM)DE_66 Wrote: We haven't even brought up the mothers' genes in all of this. Tinyo wasn't a Skybed son, but, thanks to his mothers, he had that Skybed look IMO. Mothers genes plays a part, just as fathers, but no, Tinyo/Mfumo/Scrapper doesnt have Skybeds look only because of their mothers, they look like this because 1 of their fathers aswell, this male :  *This image is copyright of its original author (02-18-2023, 02:55 PM)DE_66 Wrote: None of the West Street Males had mohawks, but Mr. T did. None of the Matimbas had a mohawk, but Mohawk Mbiri does. None of the Mayambula Coalition has a mohawk even though one of their fathers does. (02-18-2023, 02:55 PM)DE_66 Wrote: The Ross Males aren't exactly big lions, but IMO some of their sons look like they're gonna be pretty big thanks to those Old Birmingham Males and Skybed genes. Well yea i agree, you or I maybe dont have big beard or hair like our fathers, or we are bigger/smaller then them, but or facial structure is quite similar to our parents. As i said, im not saying we can determinante every lion, who is his father or son, based of looks, but in some cases we can. 
Actually heteropaternal superfecundation happens A LOT in free roaming animals that copulate with multiple males during estrous.
I've seen this with my own eyes regarding cats and dogs at least half a dozen times in my life. In felines it is not uncommon at all. We cannot judge animals by our human criteria of monogamy. Some of you on this thread our extrapolating too much from our own habits/reproductive phenomenon. https://www.catster.com/cat-health-care/...ecundation Excerpt from article.... How often does superfecundation in cats happen? Superfecundation happens more often than you might think, and with cats, you might never know a litter has more than one father. “In animals that are free to roam as they please, it’s fairly common,” Dr. Shellenberger says. 
@Tr1x24 damn those Skybeds had fabulous manes, no wonder Matimbas had big manes too.
I also agree we can use face similarities to guess who the father is as long as we have evidence the father is a member of the coalition who sired them. Edit: also from the earlier discussion on their age it was clear HB was quite younger than the others to a point others had perfect hairlines while he still was starting to grow a mohawk so I doubt any of the others were his littermate. Edit 2: Not sure about lions but from my experience with cats I feel it's common to have different fathers in the same litter. My current cat cubs themselves, 2 surviving cubs, the male is a copy of the fully black cat ( looks like a panther ) who also lives here, and the female a copy of my brownish cat who died recently, both indistinguishable from their apparent fathers in face and fur, also same eye color with just slightly different shades, but are littermates. I also know the mother definitely mated with both the black and brown cats as she would very aggressively chase any cats male or female that sneaked in close to the cubs but never the black and brown cats who even showed some affection towards the cubs once or twice. I've seen many cat litters be born and I'm confident they often have different fathers. (02-18-2023, 11:28 PM)Mapokser Wrote: I've seen many cat litters be born and I'm confident they often have different fathers. Well yea, i have cats, but things are a bit complicated there as there is many colours in the play. From what i understand and read, male kittens inherit colours from their mother, and mother can have 3,4 color patterns, while female kittens combination of both, males usually has only 2, rarely 3 colour patterns. So its a bit hard to determine if kittens have different fathers, especially if mother has many colours on her and if she mates with 2,3 colour male, thats a lot of colours. I dont know if they did any reaserch on this, how often female cat can have litter from different males. And if its the same in lions, where im quite sure no research was done on this.
I'm pretty sure this "male kittens get colors from their mother" is a myth or not something that always happens because there's a yellow male cat here I raised whose mother was fully white as snow.
I found a study on this done on tigers in captivity: “We analyzed microsatellites to test and compare the genetic output of multiple male mating (simultaneous polyandry) and single male mating (monogamy) with a female in a captive population. Simultaneous polyandry resulted in heteropaternity in 66.7% observed litters.”
Also references other felines: “Cheetah and domestic cat have also shown high frequencies of heteropaternity litters, 43% and 80% respectively [6,34]” (https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10...5722-5.pdf) 80% for house cats surprised me. Anyways, I’m pretty sure heteropaternity for captive tigers is going to be higher than what we would see in wild tigers, because apparently all of the male tigers were basically placed in the same cage with the female and took turns. Not very tiger-like. But this frequency of heteropaternity could apply more to wild lionesses because they naturally mate with more males in closer succession.
Throwback to our discussion about Ndhuna being bigger than his brothers or not, you all were saying, including Potato, that he wasn't. But reading Potato's own posts on "Lion Tales" I came across this ranger report:
Skybeds males
We only had the one sighting of these two males, that seem to have lost the rest of their pride, at Koppies. Unfortunately this is quite close to where Nduna, the biggest Matimba male, was last seen. He was last reported close to Talamati Bush Camp in the Kruger National Park, which is only a few kilometres from Koppies. Let’s hope they stay out of the big guys’ way! https://tintswaloguides.blogspot.com/2012/11/?m=1 Report is from Nov 28 2012, so the other Matimbas were in their prime already, even HB should be practically 6 by then and he already looked very developed exactly 1 year before: Nov 18 2011:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author So I think it's pretty safe to say Ndhuna was definitely the biggest, these rangers watched them together daily after all. Generally, for rangers, it's easy to say who's bigger in a coalition because they're watching them together, even for us it's kinda easy ( though in this case we lack footage from Ndhuna ). It's another thing comparing males from different coalition where we never seen them together. |
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