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07-17-2022, 05:17 AM( This post was last modified: 07-17-2022, 05:18 AM by criollo2mil )
(07-17-2022, 05:01 AM)afortich Wrote:
(07-17-2022, 04:49 AM)criollo2mil Wrote:
(07-17-2022, 04:33 AM)Mapokser Wrote: So if I understand correctly, Othawa Male still has 1 cub alive, a female, right? Who is her mother? One of the original Mangheni? That'd make her a sister to the Kambulas, right?
Yes, the Mhangeni have one last cub from OM alive. She’s a female whose mom is one of the 4 Original Tsalala Breakaways (Mapogo Daughters)
This makes this cub (and three younger lionesses) more like a half sister/cousin to the 6 original Kambulas since they’re also their daughters.
How many cubs sired by the Otawa male died after him??
There were 8 cubs alive at the time of OM’s death. 3 died during the first month. 5 made it into the latter parts of the year while the lionesses took them into Londolozi. Two survived up to the first week of this year when the oldest cub, then a sub adult disappeared first week in January, leaving the current cub as last survivor.
07-17-2022, 02:38 PM( This post was last modified: 07-17-2022, 06:38 PM by Bellateda )
(07-17-2022, 08:35 AM)DARK MANE Wrote: PC males are the strongest contenders to acquire manghenis.
Seems like adult lionesses just needs some guarantee that they won't harm the Subadult.
They could have had another litters of cubs if they had sacrificed that sub. They are irrational from the nature's point of view.
They need to mate and raise new cubs. PC males are strong, they could protect them now.
Maybe PC males will come to them soon.
It's interesting/strange that it hasn't happened yet. There should be 4 lionesses going through oestrus cycles now right?
They should be advertising themselves and seeking out males every month.
The following 1 user Likes Tonpa's post:1 user Likes Tonpa's post • afortich
The younger females have been this way for years now. The 2 Majing. daughters are already well over 6 and have yet to raise any offspring... with one of them never having even gotten pregnant. Most likely Big Boy Mangheni's sister. The other very, very quickly lost her litter by the Othawa Male as far as I recall. I'm wondering if the former is infertile. She mated with the OM, plus the Nkuhuma Male. Could be that she's seeking more stability. Tinya is over 4 I think? She's not yet been seen mating. The whole pride is too unsettled. Will be interesting to see how they act once the 3 older lionesses are gone.
I've read an article once that lionesses usually don't get pregnant immediately after a takeover but they need to get used to new lions. Maybe due to a stress?
(07-17-2022, 11:24 PM)Bellateda Wrote: I've read an article once that lionesses usually don't get pregnant immediately after a takeover but they need to get used to new lions. Maybe due to a stress?
it was quite old and I am not sure it is valid.
If some of them really want subs, they can breakaway to stay with PC males, like what is happening with Talamati and Naklahuma.
Or they might be fake mating with PC to protect the cub and the subadult, same as the southern pride lioness. I think this is more likely to be closer to it.
"Effects of Male Takeovers on Female Reproduction and Reproductive Activity
1.Reduced fertility
Most females with dependent offspring lose their cubs within a month of a takeover and females that are pregnant at the takeover lose their cubs shortly after giving birth. Although most females quickly resume sexual activity after the loss of cubs at a takeover and have regular estrous cycles (Packer and Pusey 1983), fertility is lower than at other times. The loss in fertility at a takeover is most apparent when the time from loss of small cubs to next birth for females that were lactating at a takeover is compared with the time from loss of cubs to next birth for lactating females that lost their cubs under other circumstances. Lactating females that lost their cubs at a takeover and then mated with the incoming males gave birth a median of 110 days later than females that lost their unweaned cubs and then mated with the same males that fathered their previous litters (fig. 1). We estimate that females that lost their cubs at a takeover took 6-9 estrous cycles to become pregnant, whereas most females that lost their cubs under other circumstances conceived in the first or second estrous period (Packer and Pusey 1983).
This period of infertility is also apparent in the data of Bertram (1975) which show that no full-term pregnancies were initiated during the first 3.5 mo after a takeover. In our study, females were infertile for a median of 102 days after the takeover irrespective of their reproductive state at the time of the takeover (n = 20 females; Packer and Pusey 1983). The duration of this infertility was the same across different prides and once it ended, females became pregnant with a constant probability (Packer and Pusey 1983).
The fact that females in all reproductive states show a similar period of infertility following a takeover suggests that they are reacting in some way to the ““newness’’ of the males and that as females become familiar with the males, they are more likely to become pregnant. Even females that had initially avoided new males would become more familiar with them through olfaction. Males frequently mark the ground and bushes with urine and glandular secretions (Schaller 1972). Females frequently investigate these markings (Rudnai 1979), and each lion’s scent may be unique (Brahmachary and Dutta 1981). Table 1 shows that the period of infertility depends more on the time from the takeover than the time from the loss of cubs. Females that kept their previous cubs longest into the tenure of the new males became pregnant most quickly after the cubs were finally lost or left the pride. These findings suggest that the period of infertility is not a specific response to the loss of the cubs, but rather a general response to the ‘‘newness’”’ of the males."
(07-18-2022, 02:02 PM)Tonpa Wrote: I believe that's the 1982 paper by Craig Packer
"Effects of Male Takeovers on Female Reproduction and Reproductive Activity
1.Reduced fertility
Most females with dependent offspring lose their cubs within a month of a takeover and females that are pregnant at the takeover lose their cubs shortly after giving birth. Although most females quickly resume sexual activity after the loss of cubs at a takeover and have regular estrous cycles (Packer and Pusey 1983), fertility is lower than at other times. The loss in fertility at a takeover is most apparent when the time from loss of small cubs to next birth for females that were lactating at a takeover is compared with the time from loss of cubs to next birth for lactating females that lost their cubs under other circumstances. Lactating females that lost their cubs at a takeover and then mated with the incoming males gave birth a median of 110 days later than females that lost their unweaned cubs and then mated with the same males that fathered their previous litters (fig. 1). We estimate that females that lost their cubs at a takeover took 6-9 estrous cycles to become pregnant, whereas most females that lost their cubs under other circumstances conceived in the first or second estrous period (Packer and Pusey 1983).
This period of infertility is also apparent in the data of Bertram (1975) which show that no full-term pregnancies were initiated during the first 3.5 mo after a takeover. In our study, females were infertile for a median of 102 days after the takeover irrespective of their reproductive state at the time of the takeover (n = 20 females; Packer and Pusey 1983). The duration of this infertility was the same across different prides and once it ended, females became pregnant with a constant probability (Packer and Pusey 1983).
The fact that females in all reproductive states show a similar period of infertility following a takeover suggests that they are reacting in some way to the ““newness’’ of the males and that as females become familiar with the males, they are more likely to become pregnant. Even females that had initially avoided new males would become more familiar with them through olfaction. Males frequently mark the ground and bushes with urine and glandular secretions (Schaller 1972). Females frequently investigate these markings (Rudnai 1979), and each lion’s scent may be unique (Brahmachary and Dutta 1981). Table 1 shows that the period of infertility depends more on the time from the takeover than the time from the loss of cubs. Females that kept their previous cubs longest into the tenure of the new males became pregnant most quickly after the cubs were finally lost or left the pride. These findings suggest that the period of infertility is not a specific response to the loss of the cubs, but rather a general response to the ‘‘newness’”’ of the males."
Quote:If some of them really want subs, they can breakaway to stay with PC males, like what is happening with Talamati and
Naklahuma.
Liomns don't want cubs. They feel mating urge, they mate and then just get pregnant or not.
That can not be true. They definitely know the relation between mating and cubs, and they want them. Otherwise they will eat them instead of feeding and defending them. It can be driven subconsciously by genes, as a result of evolution.
07-19-2022, 05:31 PM( This post was last modified: 07-19-2022, 05:31 PM by Bellateda )
Quote:That can not be true. They definitely know the relation between mating and cubs, and they want them. Otherwise they will eat them instead of feeding and defending them.
No, they don't know the relation between mating and cubs. iI took even for ancient humans a long time to understand this link.
It is all instincts. First mating urge, then as cubs are born, oxytocin forms attachement and other instincts urge lionesses to feed and clean cubs.
She doesn't even consider them her children after they are grown, just another familiar lion at best if the live together.
I mean, if Gingerella comes back, Sassy won't greet her as her daughter.
