Lions of Sabi Sands

[Slayerd]

(10-31-2020, 02:03 AM)Cunaguaro Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:59 PM)Gijima Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:27 PM)TinoArmando Wrote: Legend Safaris  saw to the 2 Birmingham/Gowrie males and the five Avoca males. That's why I've said this.

Im saying that massive and impressive as he described S. Avocas doesnt means that they are biggest..

And as far as I understand @Slayerd, they have been in MalaMala, so they definitely didnt see DM Avoca and Hairy Belly Matimba..

How would you even verify any of this unless they are standing next to each other? Even then (with Mfumo and Nhena) it was almost impossible to figure out. But because some ranger saw different coalitions at different sightings, doing completely different things (sitting, standing, yawning) and from different distances.. they would know if one lion in 1 inch bigger than another? 

I think the only factual thing we can say is that IN MY OPINION, I find a particular lion impressive. In some rare cases (like Dark Mane) it's obvious he is bigger than his coalition members. Nhena is also obviously bigger than Tinyo. But comparing lions across coalition is almost impossible. 

I would have loved to hear Legand Safari tell us about the SIX coalitions they saw in Mala Mala, the lion dynamics in that area and a lot more other interesting things about their visit.

It is not so impossible to see, in this video it is clearly appreciated that Nenha is taller than Mfumo but not more bulky. The thread of the Birmingham males could be seen in previous years photos where the 4 lions are together one next to the other and the height and volume of each could be compared, I will try to find those photos and if I find them I will share here.

However, in many cases it is a matter of appreciation, it may vary depending on who the male you are observing is with at a certain moment since if he is with a lioness the difference in size will be much more noticeable (and this tends to impress). whether the male in question is with any of his coalition partners.

On the other hand, I think that one of the members of the southern avoca coalition "biggermane" could be a good analogy with Mfumo compared to Nenha as we see in the video.

That's because in this video, it's clear that Mfumo had recently eaten whilst it looks like Nhenha hasn't eaten for at least a couple of days. Nhenha is actually extremely bulky. There isn't much of a difference when Nhenha is full. Mfumo might have had slightly more bulk is his hind quarters but Nhenha is taller and longer. You can see in the last photo, not much of a bulk difference when both have eaten around the same amount. Reply

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[Slayerd]

(10-31-2020, 02:37 AM)Gijima Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 02:03 AM)Cunaguaro Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:59 PM)Gijima Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:27 PM)TinoArmando Wrote: Legend Safaris  saw to the 2 Birmingham/Gowrie males and the five Avoca males. That's why I've said this.

Im saying that massive and impressive as he described S. Avocas doesnt means that they are biggest..

And as far as I understand @Slayerd, they have been in MalaMala, so they definitely didnt see DM Avoca and Hairy Belly Matimba..

How would you even verify any of this unless they are standing next to each other? Even then (with Mfumo and Nhena) it was almost impossible to figure out. But because some ranger saw different coalitions at different sightings, doing completely different things (sitting, standing, yawning) and from different distances.. they would know if one lion in 1 inch bigger than another? 

I think the only factual thing we can say is that IN MY OPINION, I find a particular lion impressive. In some rare cases (like Dark Mane) it's obvious he is bigger than his coalition members. Nhena is also obviously bigger than Tinyo. But comparing lions across coalition is almost impossible. 

I would have loved to hear Legand Safari tell us about the SIX coalitions they saw in Mala Mala, the lion dynamics in that area and a lot more other interesting things about their visit.

It is not so impossible to see, in this video it is clearly appreciated that Nenha is taller than Mfumo but not more bulky. The thread of the Birmingham males could be seen in previous years photos where the 4 lions are together one next to the other and the height and volume of each could be compared, I will try to find those photos and if I find them I will share here.

However, in many cases it is a matter of appreciation, it may vary depending on who the male you are observing is with at a certain moment since if he is with a lioness the difference in size will be much more noticeable (and this tends to impress). whether the male in question is with any of his coalition partners.

On the other hand, I think that one of the members of the southern avoca coalition "biggermane" could be a good analogy with Mfumo compared to Nenha as we see in the video.

Yet you can also see Nhena is walking slight closer to the camera. And anyways this is the perfect example of why this conversation is irrelevant.... in a fight do you think Nhena’s two centimeters in height matters more than Mfumo’s 20 extra Lbs of weight? And also, when you watched the video could you really tell who was bigger or did you have to keep pausing it and slowing it down? Live sightings are the worst for making comparisons... pictures are better. 

When some one asks a ranger if Nhena is the biggest lion in SS, they’ll say “sure”... But I don’t think they think you really going to treat it as a indisputable scientific fact. The same thing with ages or any other history... 

You don’t measure the height of anything of similar size by just “seeing” it. That’s not how height is measured. You and I know how tall we are not by using our XMen laser vision eyes, but because we actually measured ourselves. There are taller lions in the SS (dark mane, HB, Nhena) there are bulkier lions (Southern Avocas) and leaner ones (N Avocas).... those are all facts. And no guide needs to tell me Ottawa Male is impressive. He is absolutely an impressive male.

The reason why you are wrong is because these rangers and guides are not looking at photos or videos to compare. They simply can see that one is more impressive than the other. I didn't ask Legends Safari, "is Nhenha the largest lion?" I asked them who the most impressive lion was. They said Nhenha is a huge lion and the most impressive. They said the Southern Avocas are also impressive. You are saying Bulk vs Height vs lean. They didn't even say one of those words. They simply answered who the most impressive was. So when I asked, who is the most impressive lion, they said Nhenha and the S Avocas, the Othawa male was not even mentioned for you to even bring him up. The reason why you should believe a person over a picture you see on your phone? Because the eyes see better. The eyes see better than our phones. The Lion is alsmost right in front of you. If all these people say the Birminghams are the most impressive, we take their word because they are seeing it with their own eyes. Your logic would work if it was only 1 person. Unfortunately, many people have said the he is the largest lion. So your point is invalidated. I do understand where you are coming from but the words of people who are seeing things with their own eyes hold more value. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(10-31-2020, 03:00 AM)Slayerd Wrote: The reason why you are wrong is because these rangers and guides are not looking at photos or videos to compare. They simply can see that one is more impressive than the other. I didn't ask Legends Safari, "is Nhenha the largest lion?" I asked them who the most impressive lion was. They said Nhenha is a huge lion and the most impressive. They said the Southern Avocas are also impressive. You are saying Bulk vs Height vs lean. They didn't even say one of those words. They simply answered who the most impressive was. So when I asked, who is the most impressive lion, they said Nhenha and the S Avocas, the Othawa male was not even mentioned for you to even bring him up. The reason why you should believe a person over a picture you see on your phone? Because the eyes see better. The eyes see better than our phones. The Lion is alsmost right in front of you. If all these people say the Birminghams are the most impressive, we take their word because they are seeing it with their own eyes. Your logic would work if it was only 1 person. Unfortunately, many people have said the he is the largest lion. So your point is invalidated. I do understand where you are coming from but the words of people who are seeing things with their own eyes hold more value.

Nobody said that Nhenha is not impressive and largest lion.. 

I think discussion is about that even rangers cant see the difference in size between 2 lions that are close in size, if they are not side by side.. 

And we also dont know what for them is impressive lion.. Maybe the bulkiest, or tallest, or with biggest mane etc.. 

OM is definitely an impressive lion, he just isnt as bulky as Nhenha and S. Avoca.. But look at pictures of Nhenha and OM with the same lioness, size is very close..

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[T I N O]

(10-31-2020, 03:09 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 03:00 AM)Slayerd Wrote: The reason why you are wrong is because these rangers and guides are not looking at photos or videos to compare. They simply can see that one is more impressive than the other. I didn't ask Legends Safari, "is Nhenha the largest lion?" I asked them who the most impressive lion was. They said Nhenha is a huge lion and the most impressive. They said the Southern Avocas are also impressive. You are saying Bulk vs Height vs lean. They didn't even say one of those words. They simply answered who the most impressive was. So when I asked, who is the most impressive lion, they said Nhenha and the S Avocas, the Othawa male was not even mentioned for you to even bring him up. The reason why you should believe a person over a picture you see on your phone? Because the eyes see better. The eyes see better than our phones. The Lion is alsmost right in front of you. If all these people say the Birminghams are the most impressive, we take their word because they are seeing it with their own eyes. Your logic would work if it was only 1 person. Unfortunately, many people have said the he is the largest lion. So your point is invalidated. I do understand where you are coming from but the words of people who are seeing things with their own eyes hold more value.

Nobody said that Nhenha is not impressive and largest lion.. 

I think discussion is about that even rangers cant see the difference in size between 2 lions that are close in size, if they are not side by side.. 

And we also dont know what for them is impressive lion.. Maybe the bulkiest, or tallest, or with biggest mane etc.. 

OM is definitely an impressive lion, he just isnt as bulky as Nhenha and S. Avoca.. But look at pictures of Nhenha and OM with the same lioness, size is very close..

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Yes of course. the Othawa male is a very big lion despite his young age (5). He will grown even more on a few years... Reply

[T I N O]

The bulky and good looking Othawa male almost 1 year ago at Singita Game Reserve
Image credits goes: to his Original Author
December 2019

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[T I N O]

The Kambula lioness #1 at MalaMala Game Reserve
Image by: Ranger NicNel Reply

[BA0701]

I think size, when looking with our eyes is subjective. Some might appreciate a taller lion, one who is more lean but clearly taller, over a shorter stockier lion, one who is really thick and bulky. Personally I am more impressed by the bulkier lions, the ones built like little M1 Abrams tanks. over the taller leaner males. That doesn't mean they are "bigger", as that is something you'll not know unless they both got placed on a scale, it's simply my preference. 

Point being that what I might call impressive, someone else might say another lion who is taller and leaner is more impressive. Reply

[T I N O]

(10-31-2020, 04:36 AM)BA0701 Wrote: I think size, when looking with our eyes is subjective. Some might appreciate a taller lion, one who is more lean but clearly taller, over a shorter stockier lion, one who is really thick and bulky. Personally I am more impressed by the bulkier lions, the ones built like little M1 Abrams tanks. over the taller leaner males. That doesn't mean they are "bigger", as that is something you'll not know unless they both got placed on a scale, it's simply my preference. 

Point being that what I might call impressive, someone else might say another lion who is taller and leaner is more impressive.

Agreed 100% Reply

[T I N O]

*This image is copyright of its original author

Tsalala Lioness & Birmingham Nhenha
Londolozi Game Reserve - 14 Dec 2018
by Guy Runskill
- The Tsalala lioness and Birmingham male have still been seen together; we were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to watch them mate on these boulders. Here the male was following the female as she moved off the rock. We are growing more and more hopeful that she will fall pregnant with each mating bout she has. Reply

[T I N O]

Tsalala Pride - Londolozi Game Reserve Blog - 19 July 2019
By James Tyrrell
- The hot topic this week was of course the Tsalala female taking down a buffalo by herself. And no, it wasn’t a calf that she isolated form a herd, it was a big bull. The lioness is certainly not the biggest we’ve ever seen at Londolozi, maybe topping the scales at 130kg, if that, and the bull probably weighed well in excess of 600kg, so it was no mean feat. When one also considers that the Ntsevu pride of 6 adult females are starting to develop a reputation amongst the guides here for not being good buffalo hunters, so little success have they met with of late, it just makes the Tsalala lioness that much more impressive as an individual.
- he Tsalala lioness looks back from the buffalo she killed while on of her cubs tucks in. She was very lucky to keep this kill, as the Ntsevu pride walked past about 800m away and didn’t smell it; they would almost certainly have robbed her.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Potato]

"That's because in this video, it's clear that Mfumo had recently eaten whilst it looks like Nhenha hasn't eaten for at least a couple of days."

What? Did you really even watch that video? Does Nhenha there look like  he didn't eat for days? You must be joking. He has full belly there.


Apart from it coming back to discusion about who is the largest lion in Sabi Sands at the moment I just remand that Brent Leo Smith said about DM Avoca to be taller than Majingilanes and Birminghams and the talles lion he seen in the arena since Hairy Belly and James Henry said that DM wis roughly same size as HB who was a monster size lion. What it comes to Bigger Mane Southern Avoca I do not think he is any noticeaibly larger than his brother. They look very same size to me. Here they are next to each other:

Reply

[Potato]

"I think size, when looking with our eyes is subjective. Some might appreciate a taller lion, one who is more lean but clearly taller, over a shorter stockier lion, one who is really thick and bulky. Personally I am more impressed by the bulkier lions, the ones built like little M1 Abrams tanks. over the taller leaner males. That doesn't mean they are "bigger", as that is something you'll not know unless they both got placed on a scale, it's simply my preference. "

The think is taller lions most often look less bulky cus of their high even through they have still more musscle mass than shorter male. Take for example 3 tooth Tsalala and Hildas Rock male. When you look at their photos separatly you could say that Tsalala male look like more bulky male althrough when you see those two males standing next to each other, Hildas Rock male is way larger than Tsalala male by any measure. Reply

[Cunaguaro]

(10-31-2020, 02:37 AM)Gijima Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 02:03 AM)Cunaguaro Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:59 PM)Gijima Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 11:27 PM)TinoArmando Wrote: Legend Safaris  saw to the 2 Birmingham/Gowrie males and the five Avoca males. That's why I've said this.

Im saying that massive and impressive as he described S. Avocas doesnt means that they are biggest..

And as far as I understand @Slayerd, they have been in MalaMala, so they definitely didnt see DM Avoca and Hairy Belly Matimba..

How would you even verify any of this unless they are standing next to each other? Even then (with Mfumo and Nhena) it was almost impossible to figure out. But because some ranger saw different coalitions at different sightings, doing completely different things (sitting, standing, yawning) and from different distances.. they would know if one lion in 1 inch bigger than another? 

I think the only factual thing we can say is that IN MY OPINION, I find a particular lion impressive. In some rare cases (like Dark Mane) it's obvious he is bigger than his coalition members. Nhena is also obviously bigger than Tinyo. But comparing lions across coalition is almost impossible. 

I would have loved to hear Legand Safari tell us about the SIX coalitions they saw in Mala Mala, the lion dynamics in that area and a lot more other interesting things about their visit.

It is not so impossible to see, in this video it is clearly appreciated that Nenha is taller than Mfumo but not more bulky. The thread of the Birmingham males could be seen in previous years photos where the 4 lions are together one next to the other and the height and volume of each could be compared, I will try to find those photos and if I find them I will share here.

However, in many cases it is a matter of appreciation, it may vary depending on who the male you are observing is with at a certain moment since if he is with a lioness the difference in size will be much more noticeable (and this tends to impress). whether the male in question is with any of his coalition partners.

On the other hand, I think that one of the members of the southern avoca coalition "biggermane" could be a good analogy with Mfumo compared to Nenha as we see in the video.

Yet you can also see Nhena is walking slight closer to the camera. And anyways this is the perfect example of why this conversation is irrelevant.... in a fight do you think Nhena’s two centimeters in height matters more than Mfumo’s 20 extra Lbs of weight? And also, when you watched the video could you really tell who was bigger or did you have to keep pausing it and slowing it down? Live sightings are the worst for making comparisons... pictures are better. 

When some one asks a ranger if Nhena is the biggest lion in SS, they’ll say “sure”... But I don’t think they think you really going to treat it as a indisputable scientific fact. The same thing with ages or any other history... 

You don’t measure the height of anything of similar size by just “seeing” it. That’s not how height is measured. You and I know how tall we are not by using our XMen laser vision eyes, but because we actually measured ourselves. There are taller lions in the SS (dark mane, HB, Nhena) there are bulkier lions (Southern Avocas) and leaner ones (N Avocas).... those are all facts. And no guide needs to tell me Ottawa Male is impressive. He is absolutely an impressive male.

Friend I have not mentioned a fight or anything like that for you to ask me that question, I only mentioned the issue of height and volume, which was what I read in the comments of other forum members, that's all. Remember that we are talking about appreciation, not about a technical scientific proof to argue based on an irrefutable fact.
Also, it is not about coming to discuss, that is not the intention. I just gave my opinion like others and not all of them have to be the same; This forum is not about coming to discuss but to share opinions, after all a forum like this is for that and to do it with tolerance and respect. Do not you believe it?
As for whether it is an irrelevant conversation, it obviously is from a technical point of view, although you joined in commenting on the subject despite that.

Best regards! Reply

[Potato]

Also yet about Southern Avocas, I remember Sabi Sabi in one of their blogs stated that they think Tsalala males are bigger then them. I am not sure how accurate is that, althrough even if they are roughly same size or a bit bigger than Tsalalas, still should be smaller than De Laportes. Hildas Rock male should look huge in comparison to Southern Avocas. 

I do not think currenly we have in Sabi Sands really big lion, maybe beside Dark Mane Avoca. Nhanha should be clearly over avarage size lion, but deffinitelly not among largest lions ever seen in Sabi Sands. Reply

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