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Crocodile and Big cats Interaction
Crocodile and Big cats Interaction
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Crocodile and Big cats Interaction
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 (10-18-2020, 05:36 PM)TheSmok Wrote:I've read about lions specialized In killing crocodiles In some occasions. Bumi lions as one example. And when looking at known interactions usually big cats are the ones killing crocodiles. I find it interesting because I thought earlier that it would be the opposite. I had to change my opinion after some time. It's why I think that situation is something similar with other big cats. Naturally not all big cats are so eager to kill crocodiles, but some which learn it can be ruthless. Like for instance Machli and Bumi liond and some others.(10-18-2020, 03:19 PM)Shadow Wrote: I posted that same source last August. So this same case comes up once a year then. I think, that this has been many times here too in different threads so in that way not so interesting to old posters maybe. But what makes it interesting is, that even though this is over a decade old case, it seems to be only really confirmed case known in which a saltwater crocodile has killed a tiger. Naturally environment is what it is, so quite difficult to know how many crocodiles tigers kill there and how many vice versa.
@TheSmok, Machli didn’t just kill one mugger. In one summer she killed 4. Only one was filmed on camera. The other 3 dead crocs were found by Ranthambore officials. And, there was a reason for it too. Because of a harsh summer and extreme drought, the lakes had shrunk enormously and this had left the crocs with no place to swim.
Machli had young cubs and she wanted to send some sort of message I guess. In killing these 4 crocs, she lost 2 canines. But, after that summer, I am not aware of her targetting crocs. Here is a blog from national geographic about it: http://www.natgeotraveller.in/fierce-encounters-when-tigers-and-crocs-go-head-to-head/ @Pckts, Tigers did occupy most mangroves in India and Southeast Asia along with saltwater crocs before humans wiped out both like Bhitarkanika. But, I agree that tigers mostly gave saltwater crocs a wide berth maybe not so much on land. Also, mugger crocs maybe medium sized crocs, but the largest mugger ever measured was 5.2 metres. They are kind of underrated on size.  (10-18-2020, 06:03 PM)Shadow Wrote: I've read about lions specialized In killing crocodiles In some occasions. Bumi lions as one example. And when looking at known interactions usually big cats are the ones killing crocodiles. I find it interesting because I thought earlier that it would be the opposite. I had to change my opinion after some time. It's why I think that situation is something similar with other big cats. Naturally not all big cats are so eager to kill crocodiles, but some which learn it can be ruthless. Like for instance Machli and Bumi liond and some others.As far as I remember, Bumi lions were only seen feeding on three crocodiles (and this old uncovered carcass most likely was scavenged - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbkpYukox-c). It's not even close to specialization. This is just a small addition to the diet. Machli also killed only 3 crocs according to R.S. Shekhawat: Quote:I have seen three instances when she killed a crocodile during my tenure because they come up on dry land in summer and are a danger to the cubs.https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/70...pring-dies He also claimed that this was in order to protect the cubs. And although big cats in general may kill crocodiles more often than vice versa, it can be also noted that big cats very rarely kill large crocodiles. The largest crocodiles ever killed by big cats appear to be the 11-foot-7-inch (~353.06 cm) Nile crocodile killed by the lion in Uganda, and about the same-sized mugger killed by tigress Machli after a 13 hour fight. These individuals are quite large (possibly up to 180-200 kg in weight), but they are much smaller than large territorial males from some populations. (10-18-2020, 07:08 PM)TheSmok Wrote:(10-18-2020, 06:03 PM)Shadow Wrote: I've read about lions specialized In killing crocodiles In some occasions. Bumi lions as one example. And when looking at known interactions usually big cats are the ones killing crocodiles. I find it interesting because I thought earlier that it would be the opposite. I had to change my opinion after some time. It's why I think that situation is something similar with other big cats. Naturally not all big cats are so eager to kill crocodiles, but some which learn it can be ruthless. Like for instance Machli and Bumi liond and some others.As far as I remember, Bumi lions were only seen feeding on four crocodiles (and this old uncovered carcass most likely was scavenged - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbkpYukox-c). It's not even close to specialization. This is just a small addition to the diet. As far as I remember, Bumi lions were called specialized crocodile killers by locals who observed these lions and they killed some big crocodiles, three were approximately 4 meters long, one was measured to be a bit over 4 meters. You can call it something else, but I see them as lions, which learned to do something and became good in it and their special feature was to kill crocodiles with relative ease. If believing people who saw what happened and in this case I do believe them. Reason is, that there are other lions doing the same in different places. There are lions killing more buffalos than others and very good in it, some kill hippos, while other don´t. Some have been killing more elephants than others and learned better how to do it. I see it as a valid reason to call some lions specialized croc killers as much as some can be called specialized buffalo killers. Anyway what comes to lions and crocodiles, I wrote how I see it overall based on information I have been able to find. I don´t have now time to go through all what I´ve seen, but even with simple google searches it´s possible for anyone interested to find more information. Some game ranger diaries/notes are more difficult to find, but there is also older information. I´m quite cautious with older texts often, but what comes to lions and crocodiles, those older observations which I´ve seen fit in line with current observations/photos etc. So I do believe in lions and other big cats, which have become specialized crocodile hunters/killers. But free world for people who disagree. My main point for people who are interested is, seek yourself too, don´t believe too easily what I say or some other. I have done so always and it´s interesting to do so, imo. What comes to this topic, as I said earlier, I had thought that crocodiles would have clear upper hand, but with time I changed my mind, big cats are surprisingly capable to confront crocodiles.
What comes to Bumi lions, I put here one quote.
I understand that text so, that probably these lions have killed a lot of crocodiles. Learning at some point how to do it and then becoming more and more confident. And here they found three large crocodiles in only two weeks time. So different people can speculate in many ways, but I personally see this pretty convincing and anyone can just guess how many crocodiles these lions have killed in reality during years. Someone can say, that ok, they killed only five. Fine, but if so then I disagree personally. Here quote: "“We first noticed this behaviour last year when we found two small crocodile carcasses, which had clearly been killed and eaten by lions," the lodge’s deputy general, Catherine Norton, told News24. “We thought it was an opportunistic kill and was unlikely to be repeated." But that assumption proved incorrect. According to the team at the lodge, the pair has now killed as many as three large crocs over the past two weeks. And although an actual kill hasn’t yet been witnessed, the lions appear to be working together while taking down their massive prey: one brother distracts, while the other quite literally goes for the jugular. “We think that it is learned behaviour,” says Norton. “When you think about it, killing a crocodile which could well be half asleep dozing in the sun is a lot simpler than stalking and chasing after an alert and nimble antelope." Strange as this feeding choice might be, Norton adds, it has nothing to do with a shortage of the cats' usual prey – buffalo, kudu and impala are all in healthy supply in the area. At the end of the day, what we're most likely seeing is simply a couple of crafty lions making life just a little bit easier on themselves. " https://www.earthtouchnews.com/natural-world/predator-vs-prey/lions-team-up-for-some-crocodile-hunting-in-zimbabwe/ (10-18-2020, 07:57 PM)Shadow Wrote: As far as I remember, Bumi lions were called specialized crocodile killers by locals who observed these lions and they killed some big crocodiles, three were approximately 4 meters long, one was measured to be a bit over 4 meters.It seems to be an observation made by one safari guide. These are articles from his blog: https://safariguideafrica.wordpress.com/...crocodile/ https://safariguideafrica.wordpress.com/...umi-hills/ There is also a Facebook safari group that this guide worked for, which posted all of these sightings, including photographs of smaller crocodiles previously killed by lions: https://www.facebook.com/page/2089942957...=Crocodile However, none of these sources have published an update to this observations since April 18, 2016. Therefore, it seems that this was only a temporary behavior of lions, at least we have no evidence to the contrary. Regarding the size of the crocodiles, two out of three carcasses were photographed next to lions, and it is clear that they are less than 4 meters in length. They are quite similar in size to a young male lion. The guide claimed he measured the third crocodile carcass at 13 feet 6 inches (~4.1 meters), although there is no way to reliably measure the gnawed and crumpled carcass, and it was most likely a rough approximation in steps or something like that. Judging by this photo, the length of the lower jaw of this crocodile is approximately 55 cm, since the width of the man's boot is hardly much more than 12 cm:  *This image is copyright of its original author The length of the lower jaw of about 55 cm corresponds to the dorsal cranial length of the skull of hardly more than 43-45 cm, and such dorsal cranial length corresponds to the crocodile total length no more than 320 cm. After all, it is also quite expected that many safari guides will exaggerate the size of the crocodiles in almost any context. Another strange point is that at least two crocodile carcasses were found on the river bank. If one of them (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbkpYukox-c, and here are photos - https://www.facebook.com/BumiHills/posts...8198478683) looks pretty old and decomposed, and may have been just scavenged, there is no reason to believe that the second one was also scavenged rather than killed (although the quality is poor, it is flipped on its back, looks fresher and is much more eaten, there are some photos - https://safariguideafrica.wordpress.com/...umi-hills/). It seems crocodiles can relatively easily avoid lions in a place like this, as can be seen in many videos like this: (10-19-2020, 12:32 AM)TheSmok Wrote:(10-18-2020, 07:57 PM)Shadow Wrote: As far as I remember, Bumi lions were called specialized crocodile killers by locals who observed these lions and they killed some big crocodiles, three were approximately 4 meters long, one was measured to be a bit over 4 meters.It seems to be an observation made by one safari guide. These are articles from his blog: I don´t see any reason why this person would have lied and there are other people also telling about these lions, not only one guide. Anyway I trust more to what he has measured, than to your guesstimation. Because measurement tape is more reliable than some rough estimation from photo. So in this case I disagree with you, because those crocodiles looked quite big and four meters isn´t unrealistic at all imo, when looking at photos. Lions are quite big cats and it´s a lot about learning, they have all what it takes to kill pretty big crocodiles if they just learn to use their potential. It might be possible to get more information from those people working there, it´s not so long time from the time these lions were there and hunted crocodiles. If this/those crocodiles would have been said to be clearly bigger than 4 meters I might be more interested to write and ask, but I don´t see anything strange in it, that lion or lions kill that big crocodile. 
crocs have immense power even 10 ft crocs can hurt a big cat pretty bad if it caught it by the paw and death rolled,major flaws they tire out and get stressed quickly
(10-19-2020, 12:54 AM)Shadow Wrote: I don´t see any reason why this person would have lied and there are other people also telling about these lions, not only one guide. Anyway I trust more to what he has measured, than to your guesstimation. Because measurement tape is more reliable than some rough estimation from photo. So in this case I disagree with you, because those crocodiles looked quite big and four meters isn´t unrealistic at all imo, when looking at photos. Lions are quite big cats and it´s a lot about learning, they have all what it takes to kill pretty big crocodiles if they just learn to use their potential.He does not necessarily lie, because it is very easy to make the error of measuring the partially consumed crocodile carcass in this position by an unknown method (Between the pegs? Along the midline?). The mugger killed by the tigress Machli was also previously estimated at 14 feet or 4.3 meters, while all further analysis of the video and photo material clearly indicated that it was no more than 3.5 meters. No one lied or even tried to exaggerate Machli's feat when giving the first estimation. 3.5 meter crocodiles just look huge, despite the fact that they usually weigh no more than 200 kg. A four-meter crocodile should weigh about 300 kg after all, but these young lions do not seem to be half the size of these crocs, and clearly do not have the dimensions of large adult male lions at prime age... Also, pay attention to the width of the rib cage of the crocodile carcass in the photo. A 4.1 meter crocodile's ribcage would be at least 55-60 cm wide, but how big does this guy's boot have to be to look so big near a 4.1-meter crocodile's ribcage? Perhaps lions can learn to kill crocodiles... But this will only work as long as the crocodiles do not learn to go into the water when a group of lions approaches, instead of standing their ground as they typically do. Crocodiles usually do not see lions as a serious threat and often behave very risky. For example, these little crocodiles could easily be killed by these lions: (10-19-2020, 09:32 AM)TheSmok Wrote:(10-19-2020, 12:54 AM)Shadow Wrote: I don´t see any reason why this person would have lied and there are other people also telling about these lions, not only one guide. Anyway I trust more to what he has measured, than to your guesstimation. Because measurement tape is more reliable than some rough estimation from photo. So in this case I disagree with you, because those crocodiles looked quite big and four meters isn´t unrealistic at all imo, when looking at photos. Lions are quite big cats and it´s a lot about learning, they have all what it takes to kill pretty big crocodiles if they just learn to use their potential.He does not necessarily lie, because it is very easy to make the error of measuring the partially consumed crocodile carcass in this position by an unknown method (Between the pegs? Along the midline?). The mugger killed by the tigress Machli was also previously estimated at 14 feet or 4.3 meters, while all further analysis of the video and photo material clearly indicated that it was no more than 3.5 meters. No one lied or even tried to exaggerate Machli's feat when giving the first estimation. 3.5 meter crocodiles just look huge, despite the fact that they usually weigh no more than 200 kg. A four-meter crocodile should weigh about 300 kg after all, but these young lions do not seem to be half the size of these crocs, and clearly do not have the dimensions of large adult male lions at prime age... Also, pay attention to the width of the rib cage of the crocodile carcass in the photo. A 4.1 meter crocodile's ribcage would be at least 55-60 cm wide, but how big does this guy's boot have to be to look so big near a 4.1-meter crocodile's ribcage? It´s relatively easy to use measurement tape or rope to get the length of a crocodile in quite reliable way, it´s not rocket science after all, when there is whole animal there from tip of the nose to tip of the tail. Pretty simple to measure these animals after all. So I have no trouble to believe these measurements of some 4 meter crocodiles, 4 meters is big but not anything extraordinary. In my opinion in range which a lion knowing what to do can kill quite easily. Then again, there are countless videos of lions and crocodiles meeting each others, so selecting suitable videos it´s easy to make it look like, that crocodiles have no fear or that they are very afraid of lions. It´s obvious, that some lions are less familiar with crocodiles, while others can walk right in the middle of crocodiles with confidence like they would be going in the middle of antelopes almost. Many times order can be, that male lions eat first, then come crocodiles or lionesses, depending of situation. So any of these videos shared now are in no contradiction with it, that there are some lions and prides, which can be said to be specialized crocodile hunters/killers, while there are lions which aren´t as used to. Still many crocodiles make a big mistake when approaching with too much confidence eating lions and especially if there are lion cubs near. All in all, as I said, you are free to have your opinion, but I trust in this case more to these people who have been making first hand observations. If measurements would be extreme or based on carcasses with half body missing I would be more skeptic, but in these photos there is all left to measure whole length, so it has been easy to get a good measurement. I´ve seen in some discussions the person who was there, defending these measurements, telling that he personally measured one which was 13,5 feet and biggest crocodile found was 14 feet. (10-19-2020, 10:06 AM)Shadow Wrote: In my opinion in range which a lion knowing what to do can kill quite easily.I, on the other hand, very much doubt that any lion (possibly except for the largest males) can confidently take on a healthy 4-meter crocodile. It looks like Machli had big problems with the 3.5 m mugger, despite the fact that this mugger wasn't even twice as heavy as Machli, but rather only one-third heavier. Mugger also suffered from drought and was quite lethargic, at least in the video. But it took a whopping 13 hours for Machli to kill this crocodile, and she broke 2 canines in the process. Unlike almost all cases of lions killing crocodiles, this case is really well-documented and definitely more revealing than finding lions next to crocodile carcasses. However, I would expect lions to kill a larger crocodile than tigers can if they attack in a group. At least they can take turns to tire the crocodile. But I have no idea what it should look like, since we have no observed and documented kills. (10-19-2020, 10:06 AM)Shadow Wrote: I´ve seen in some discussions the person who was there, defending these measurements, telling that he personally measured one which was 13,5 feet and biggest crocodile found was 14 feet.He visually estimated this crocodile at 14 feet, as far as I can remember: And this is not Bumi lions, of course. I don’t think that this person can provide any additional information at all, since he just observed and photographed the feeding sites, and (as he said) never saw the killing. (10-19-2020, 10:06 AM)Shadow Wrote: Then again, there are countless videos of lions and crocodiles meeting each others, so selecting suitable videos it´s easy to make it look like, that crocodiles have no fear or that they are very afraid of lions.My point was that if lions really began to develop the habit of hunting crocodiles, crocodiles would begin to exhibit more effective anti-predatory behavior as well. This may explain why no big cat becomes a crocodile hunter/killer in the long run. It seems that nothing will stop lions, tigers and even leopards from routinely eating smaller crocodiles, which very often allow big cats to get very close to themselves on the shore... But they don't. Crocodiles are also very flexible in behavior, and as they have learned to avoid humans in a short time in many places (and in some cases even change the reproductive strategy), they could easily learn to do this with any other predator dangerous for a certain size and age category. (10-19-2020, 11:01 AM)TheSmok Wrote:(10-19-2020, 10:06 AM)Shadow Wrote: In my opinion in range which a lion knowing what to do can kill quite easily.I, on the other hand, very much doubt that any lion (possibly except for the largest males) can confidently take on a healthy 4-meter crocodile. It looks like Machli had big problems with the 3.5 m mugger, despite the fact that this mugger wasn't even twice as heavy as Machli, but rather only one-third heavier. Mugger also suffered from drought and was quite lethargic, at least in the video. But it took a whopping 13 hours for Machli to kill this crocodile, and she broke 2 canines in the process. Unlike almost all cases of lions killing crocodiles, this case is really well-documented and definitely more revealing than finding lions next to crocodile carcasses. Well, Machli was a tigress, so quite a lot smaller than male lions. So while Machli killed a crocodile estimated to be 12 ft, 14 ft means only half a meter more, while male lion is roughly 1,5-2 times bigger than a tigress. So I really don´t see anything extraordinary in it, that a lion kills a crocodile around 4 meters long. But this starts to go in the circles and I don´t see any point to repeat same things around too many times. You have your opinion and I have mine. I have said already what I wanted to say in earlier postings concerning this and people can find those easily if interest. It´s also easy to find videos of different kind of encounters in between lions and crocodiles and in some single lions show how they can confront very big looking crocodiles alone. As said, choosing suitable videos things can be made to look anything, when talking about lions and crocodiles. And what comes to it, from where this started now, I find it interesting, that with time I had to change my opinion. I thought a long time, that crocodiles simply dominate lions, but with time I have changed my mind. Big cats seem to be able to handle crocodiles surprisingly well, when they need to. I have found far more cases of lions killing crocodiles than vice versa. Overall when looking at big cats and crocodiles, known incidents leading to death of one, seem to be usually such, that crocodile is killed. (10-19-2020, 11:17 AM)Shadow Wrote: Well, Machli was a tigress, so quite a lot smaller than male lions. So while Machli killed a crocodile estimated to be 12 ft, 14 ft means only half a meter more, while male lion is roughly 1,5-2 times bigger than a tigress. So I really don´t see anything extraordinary in it, that a lion kills a crocodile around 4 meters long.A 14-foot crocodile is on average 2 times heavier than a 12-foot crocodile and about 1/3 heavier than a 13 foot one. I would not be so skeptical if Bumi lions were adult males, but they are young ones, hardly so much larger than the adult tigress. (10-19-2020, 11:17 AM)Shadow Wrote: And what comes to it, from where this started now, I find it interesting, that with time I had to change my opinion. I thought a long time, that crocodiles simply dominate lions, but with time I have changed my mind. Big cats seem to be able to handle crocodiles surprisingly well, when they need to. I have found far more cases of lions killing crocodiles than vice versa. Overall when looking at big cats and crocodiles, known incidents leading to death of one, seem to be usually such, that crocodile is killed.Perhaps you are currently underestimating the number of cases where crocodiles killing big cats. Mark Ross, an experienced safari guide, knows two cases when crocodile stalked and killed a male lion. In both cases, there was not much struggle: Quote:Hunting Anything and everything is on a crocodile's menu. I know of two cases in which a crocodile stalked and successfully killed a male lion. And in both cases it wasn't much of a fight once the crocodile got the lion into the water.https://books.google.ru/books?id=E01QAAA...+crocodile This is his website: https://markrosssafaris.com/ A well-known case describing a male lion killed by a crocodile: Quote:Mid 2007, one of the Roller Coaster males was killed by a Crocodile. Since then, his brother has maintained dominance over the Styx pride and is believed to be the Sire of their current cubs. There have been a number of reports of the Styx lionesses seen mating with males from the Mapogo Coalition but the old Roller Coaster male is usually in attendance with the Styx pride and accepts the cubs as his. So don’t tell him they might not all be his.http://blog.wildearth.tv/2009_06_01_archive.html Another one: Quote:Apparently, two weeks ago the Mapogo Males were drinking from the Sand river in Londolozi Game Reserve when a crocodile attacked and killed one of them at the waters edge it would be the second male lion killed by a crocodile on the Sabi Sands in the past few months as one of the Rollercoaster males (Mala Mala name, they are the Shaws Males on Londolozi) was also killed by a crocodile recently.http://blog.wildearth.tv/2007/10/story-b...males.html Cott (1961) also mentions cases of crocodiles preying on lions:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.ru/books?id=0rCRBQA...on&f=false Similar data from a book published earlier than paper by Cott (1961):  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.ru/books?redir_esc=...drown+lion Rangers sighting reported in an African Wild Life magazine in 1964: Quote:CROCODILE GRABS LION.https://books.google.ru/books?id=gIgoAQA...UQ6AEIKDAA Recent observation of mugger crocodiles predation on a young male Asiatic lion and on a leopard from CSG journal:  *This image is copyright of its original author http://www.iucncsg.org/365_docs/attachme...421f9e.pdf Recent photographs of a crocodile feeding on a lion. The original source states that in the first photo, the lion is still alive ("images taken in Kruger at the low level bridge on the H1-2. The first is a huge Croc in a tussle with a full grow Lion and a Barbel getting caught up in the battle"):  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author https://tieba.baidu.com/p/6225755751?red_tag=2885105181 Video with a crocodile feeding on a lion: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2171977466381428 It is not known if this lioness was killed by a crocodile, but the same can be said for dead crocodiles photographed next to lions:  *This image is copyright of its original author Quote:The Castleton pride, broken and fragmented, recently suffered the loss of four pride members. We topped the LTA dam wall to find a strange whitish object floating in the water. Only when we saw the teeth could we make out what it was… a lioness! Suddenly she disappeared under the water, only to rise again in the jaws of an enormous crocodile as it thrashed her from side to side! Whether she had been taken by the croc, or died on land and was pulled into the water by the large reptile was uncertain. Momentarily a hippopotamus arrived at the carcass, perhaps out of curiosity, and the crocodile moved on. In the shade of a nearby tree her sub-adult youngster sat and watched, emaciated and on the brink of death. It was painful to see her and after that we never saw the youngster again.We found a young male, also badly emaciated, lying next to a waterhole. My heart went out to him as I heard the not too distant bellows of a large (over 200) herd of buffalo. Instead of running away he hid in the grass and waited for them… perhaps his hunger had crazed him and he thought he might somehow snatch a calf from the herd. Perhaps he somehow knew his time had come. As the herd walked past him, one of the bulls spotted him, and gave a call I had never heard before. It was low, menacing, frightening. It was the call to attack.https://www.facebook.com/Mapogo.Lions/ph...Eg&theater Crocodile with dead lioness:  *This image is copyright of its original author Asiatic lioness, probably killed by mugger(s):  *This image is copyright of its original author https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city...802167.cms Photo with a crocodile holding in its jaws what looks like a small lioness:  *This image is copyright of its original author There are no specific observations, but this article, published in the journal LIFE on Dec 9, 1966, states that lions are a frequent prey of crocodiles in Okavango swamps:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.ru/books?id=BlMEAAA...20&f=false This makes sense, since in the swamps of the Okavango Delta, lions can live in almost the same conditions as the tigers in the Sundarbans. An unusual case described in an old book "The Baganda: An Account of Their Native Customs and Beliefs":  *This image is copyright of its original author https://books.google.ru/books?id=Eu-wAAA...edir_esc=y Old observation published in The Southeast Missourian, nov 23, 1936:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1...2533&hl=ru This observation, published in The Age on Sep 18, 1897, is unusual in that it describes how a crocodile caught a lion on land. Moreover, in a fairly realistic context:  *This image is copyright of its original author https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1...8558&hl=ru A recent observation of a lioness falling in the water and being taken by a crocodile:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Quote:These pictures were taken on game drive (at a distance), and are not for the sensitive. Mostly what we see is beautiful and or exciting; but there's no avoiding the reality of nature, it is honest and often brutal. One animal's mistake, is another's desperately needed meal. On this occasion, a lioness left her four cubs behind and put aside her feline dislike of water to cross the weir near Lower Sabi in the Kruger Park. On her return, she broke into a run and missed her footing, getting swept into the Sabi River, and the waiting jaws of a crocodile. We believe that the cubs are now being reared by another female from the pride. Thank you very much to Joey Vermeulen for the pics.  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.facebook.com/RhinoPost/posts...4007955400 Account by Robert E. Coleman published in book "Conflicts in Nature" how a 1200 pound crocodile killed a male lion: https://books.google.ru/books?id=L8l1uThXdSoC&q Account from the book "Among animals of Africa", 1970:  *This image is copyright of its original author 12 ft Nile crocodile killed an adult male lion, from the book "Animals in Their Places: Tales from the Natural World", 1987: Quote:The year before a large and aggressive male had ruled the pride, but he had fallen ill with a parasite infestation and the sicker he had gotten the less alert he had become. One evening, just at dusk, he had been down on the sand flats lapping water from one of the streams that marked the course of the parent river. He had died an unlikely death, held underwater in the jaws of a twelve-foot Nile crocodile.https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=l...+crocodile Locals report that crocodiles kill lions. Anecdotal report from "Drum: A Magazine of Africa for Africa. African Drum Publications", 1996: Quote:..."What do Nile crocodiles eat?" I asked. "Nile crocodiles prey mainly on wildebeest, gazelles, buffalo, wild dogs and lions that come to the water to drink...https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=T...+and+lions David Paynter and Wilf Nussey in book "Kruger: portrait of a national park" (1986) mention that Nile crocodiles kill fully grown male lions: Quote:A crocodile dragging an antelope into the water may be a grim sight but the crocodile is fulfilling a purely natural need - to ... Crocodiles have been seen dragging full-grown buffalo bulls and even male lions to a watery death - not surprising...https://books.google.ru/books?id=w8cPAQA...NyCh1RXAVp An unusual account, described in book "Animal facts and feats" by Gerald L. Wood:  *This image is copyright of its original author ...their balance lost, fell into the river, which seemed suddenly to become alive with great jaws. https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=H...great+jaws Another mention of this observation: Quote:There's a well-authenticated story of a crocodile which knocked three drinking lions into a river with one sweep of its tail-and the rest of the crocs made short work of them!https://books.google.ru/books?id=HJE_AAA...ByCh0KYABq Guggisberg in his book "Crocodiles: Their Natural History, Folklore and Conservation" also describes the discovery of lion's claws in the stomach of a crocodile. Some additional photos have been posted in this thread by other users. So I would not say that crocodiles rarely kill lions, there are also many old accounts of crocodiles killing tigers. Perhaps in the past, when there were more lions and tigers, this happened more often than now, as many old accounts show. Nowadays, there are many cases of crocodile predation on leopards, which are the most common and numerous big cats. (10-19-2020, 12:28 PM)TheSmok Wrote:(10-19-2020, 11:17 AM)Shadow Wrote: Well, Machli was a tigress, so quite a lot smaller than male lions. So while Machli killed a crocodile estimated to be 12 ft, 14 ft means only half a meter more, while male lion is roughly 1,5-2 times bigger than a tigress. So I really don´t see anything extraordinary in it, that a lion kills a crocodile around 4 meters long.A 14-foot crocodile is on average 2 times heavier than a 12-foot crocodile and about 1/3 heavier than a 13 foot one. I would not be so skeptical if Bumi lions were adult males, but they are young ones, hardly so much larger than the adult tigress. To put this shortly, I know the things you wrote. And knowing all those things I wrote what I did before. I have used quite some time to search information and it was for me surprising to learn how often lions kill crocodiles when comparing to cases vice versa. I know that crocodiles have their moments too. But since I have said In my previous postings already how I see things I won't write all again now.
don't recall machli losing canines from the croc fight,her canines wore down with age,she was prime during those killings
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