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Lions of Timbavati
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 (03-21-2024, 07:21 AM)BA0701 Wrote: Only current pair of lions that I see matching the Mbiris in size and strength is the PCM, and yet the experience still goes to Mbiris, in a huge way. (03-21-2024, 10:04 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @BA0701 Yeah in the Greater Kruger I'd think the PCM are the closest duo to the Mbiri in strength. Though further east into Kruger there's also the remaining Mjejane males Toya and Pretty Boy, 2 very powerful beasts. Things like this are hard to tell, as outside Timbavati/SS/Manyeleti and few other reserves, we have limited info about coalitions, their actions and strenghts. Also, Mbiris are getting past their prime years, I wouldnt bet on them currently against some of those younger duos just from near by area of Sabi Sands, like PCMs, Gijimas or Mantimahle sons for example, who can match their size and strenght, let alone in whole Kruger. Mjejanes, Trichardts, S36/KT, H10- Imbalis, Hippo Pools, Phabeni twins, are just some of duos who are in their primes and look very impressive, Mbiris would prob have hard time dealing with them atm. 
In my humble opinion and from the few fights watched, the lion bonds play a very important factor in those 2 vs 2 fights.
It appears that the stronger the bond, the higher probability of success upon winning the fight. 
@criollo2mil yeah we can't say for sure, angles are different, but Avoca seems bigger than the Mangheni cub and checking the date exactly, Mangheni was already born exactly 8 months ago, so he's 8+ months old, but still look smaller than the Avoca.
@Tr1x24 Yeah, we have limited info from most of Kruger, when I talk like that I'm referring to lions with documented feats. Anyway, Mbiri are just 10yo, not that old, had just left their prime but I think only were in bad shape due to injuries. Scar is looking in top condition and Shaka possibly at least close to top shape. Avocas had the same age when they were dealing with the Nkhulu and most here said they'd favor them over prime Gijima, that despite the Avoca, although very strong duo, never been anywhere as strong as Mbiris. We know nothing about Mantimahles besides the fact they look impressive ( especially blond male, his brother not so much ), for all we know, the Ndhzengas for example, might be stronger than them despite being smaller, because we've seen what thet are capable of. Gijimas and PCM are very strong, no doubt, and PCM also have that big size to back them up in a brawl, but still, as long as Mbiri are in good enough condition, I don't see neither being as strong as them. The feats of strength displayed by Mbiris are something we've never seen before, not even by their incredibly powerful fathers and uncles, or the Mapogo who were infamous for their fighting prowess. Gijimas were playing with their mothers at the age where Mbiris were beating strong prime duos like Mapoza and Ross. PCM were getting chased around by OM at the age where the Mbiris had been dominant already for months and being absolute powerhouses. PCM had never been in a life or death fight, never in a scenario where their opponents could at least match them, but how many times these Mbiris have been caught by multiple males, been badly injured, but made a full recovery? I don't think PCM would flee in such hypothetical clash, but I believe Mbiris would whoop them in a brawl. The difference in experience is massive. Also it's possible/maybe likely that Mbiris are bigger than even the PCM, there are countless statements about different reserves talking about how huge they are and how they are some of the largest they'd seen, we got such statements about them being huge even when the photographer was watching Mbiris chasing H7 males, and 1/2 H7 male weighed 247kg with partial stomach content, so at the very least the photographer thought Mbiris were similar in size to the H7 male as they called all 4 males huge, not making distinctions. The PCM in comparison doesn't seem to impress the guides as much, they do, but not to the same degree. I'd be willing to bet Mbiris are taller, maybe a little bit longer, though Makhunga looks at least as bulky as Scar IMO. As for Gijimas, I'd imagine a similar scenario with the difference that I don't believe they are as physically powerful as the PCM and not having as much experience in proper fights, wouldn't do as well as the PCM in a brawl, I think Mbiris would walk over them. But as I said earlier, this is as long as the Mbiri are at least as fit as they are right now, if they deteriorate more like they were in the previous months then I wouldn't favor them even against lesser impressive prime duos. 
While, personally, I've recently stopped watching a majority of videos containing kills, of lions or by lions, lions as predators or victims, that is a choice I make, and a choice I am provided by the release of said videos. If these videos are not made available for the people who do wish to watch them, people who I believe to be in a very large majority, then I do not agree with that. When the videos are released people have a choice to watch them or not, but when these videos exist and someone makes the decision to not release it, then they are making a choice for others, based on the feelings of a small minority of people. Just because I choose to not watch them, at least at this point in my life (something that could just as easily change in the near future), does not mean that I believe that someone who does wish to watch them shouldn't be given the choice. I used to watch them all, and during that time I am sure there were people who chose not to watch them, which is fine as well. I don't demand that others must feel, and believe, the same things in the same ways that I do, there is way too much of this mindset today, and I find it incredibly weak minded. People demanding such things belong to a small group that feel entitled, and only ever thinks of themselves. The problem today is that too many people, not just in the wildlife world, worry about the feelings of a handful of people, giving those few people agency on how others are allowed to live their lives, others who only wish to mind their own business and live their own lives how they see fit.
Some people need to get a grip, and understand that they'd be a lot happier in their own lives if they stopped caring how other people were living theirs. I hope the reserves know that the people calling for these videos to not be released are the minority, and that they will always have the support of the community at large. If people don't like their releasing a video, tell them this isn't Clockwork Orange, they have the choice to not watch it, and if they don't like that, tell them to pound sand. All I can say, to those people, is don't bring that nonsense here, you will not be well received. (03-22-2024, 05:56 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The feats of strength displayed by Mbiris are something we've never seen before, not even by their incredibly powerful fathers and uncles, or the Mapogo who were infamous for their fighting prowess. Really? Same males who where running from Xitaya and Mpohlo and got mauled by Nharhus several times.. Shaka was mauled quite badly and was quite lucky he survived. (03-22-2024, 05:56 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Gijimas were playing with their mothers at the age where Mbiris were beating strong prime duos like Mapoza and Ross. We dont know Gijimas exact age or what they where doing before Sabi Sands. What we do know is when they arrived in Sabi Sands, they straight up attacked coalition of 4 in matter of days, and by the looks of it, only these 2 males where doing all work, no evidence that 3rd male was participating in attacks, as there is 0 photos of him in Sabi Sands. Light Maned Gijima in 2022 when they attacked 4 Ndhzengas looked very young, barely any mane. Gijimas also chased and clashed few times with invading coalition of 7 Nkuhulu males (before their health problems) without any problems. Mbiris only once faced coalition, who was invading them, where they where outnumbered, and lost. Mbiris are legendary duo, but lets not exaggerate. You are also giving too much credit to experience, more often then not old males are getting beated by younger, even Mbiris did the same. As for size with PCMs, hardly matter, both parties are massive, PCMs are in their primes, both males are curently prob stronger them Mbiris 1vs1 and have better endurance. 
Yeah thats a brutal one. While I am glad its shared for the sake of education. This one is probably best to avoid for the casual viewer if you cant stand gore and animals suffering. Definitly NSFW.
One note to reassure people though. As his spine was broken, he very likely didn't feel much of it.
@Tr1x24
Scar had a limp on his hindlimb when the Nharhu chased them 2v2, the report says so, even adding that Shaka had to stop and wait for his brother because the limping Scar couldn't keep up. So it was not completely "fair". And this is literally their only defeat in even numbers, that despite them having more documented clashes than any other coalition by far. Also, Nharhu males were very strong lions, even the limping Skorokoro beat I think one of the river pride males in a big fight and chased him off 1v1. Nharhu were 3, Mbiri 2. Yes they got mauled by Nhahru multiple times, being outnumbered, and survived, making a full recovery. How many males have fought such brutal fights while outnumbered, being badly injured and survived so many times? Are you considering this an anti-feat? Bad showing of strength? It's quite the opposite, it shows that even while outnumbered, multiple times, no coalition was strong enough to kill them. Gijimas chased Gore 2v1 and caught the elder male 2v1 or maybe 3v1. Once Amahle and Eorenji showed up, they chased the Gijimas. And back then dark-maned Gijima was very well developed already. This in no way compare to beating prime Mapozas and Ross 2v2 when the Mbiri were 3,5yo. Even in eastern Africa where lions develop quicker, I've never seen any 3,5yo males beating prime territorial lions in even numbers. Best I can think of was Big Boy Charleston fighting 1/3 Sand River male, but he lost, the dominant male chased him off eventually. Gijimas chased 5 Nkhulu + Delaporte once, and it wasn't easy, it was 1 hour of back and forth until Gijimas won, which is very impressive, but the Nkhulu were challengers back then, not dominant males. Once they became dominant, 4 Nkhulu, with at least 2/4 being sick, easily chased the 2 Gijimas. I'm not exaggerating anything, regarding strength, Mbiris are on a league of their own. Literally, no other coalition ever documented has so many documented clashes and wins as the Mbiris do, in even numbers/while outnumbered. They also chased nomadic males which outnumbered them multiple times. PCM only have 1 win against dominant males in even numbers/while outnumbered, Nhenha and NK. Gijimas have one if you count Nkhulu but they weren't dominant. And both were chases only, no fighting. Neither has ever had a proper fight, never got seriously injured. Mbiris had such clashes and fights how many times? 15? 20? When I stopped to properly assemble the data and count them, I saw that not even Mapogo had so many clashes/fights and victories in even numbers or while outnumbered, and before that I couldn't count no other coalition with anywhere near as much cashes as the Mapogo. I wouldn't count experience as much if Mbiris were very old, you're acting like they are 13, they are only 10, and in great condition. PCM probably have more stamina, but Mbiris caught prime Guernsey male in a chase, so they have lots of stamina yet. PCM physically stronger? I don't think so. The issue here is that neither PCM have ever fought an even fight, a 1v1 or 2v2 where their opponents put a real fight. Mbiris have fought such fights and almost died countless times so once the PCM face such opponents that put a fight they'd probably panick and eventually run, not used to fights "to the death". They know nothing about a long 1v1 fight, never mind getting caught 2v1, 3v1. Mbiris do, so fighting serious 1v1 from the Mbiri perspective is nothing, but for the PCM it'd be a new experience. Hell Scar fought the BDM who not only had feats to show how strong he was as a dominant male, but was arguably the largest male lion we've seen. Don't forget this is the lion the head ranger of Timbavati darted and stated was the largest they had ever darted, with the girth of his tail thicker than the guide's leg above his ankle, bigger than Ximpoko which they weighed at 283kg with a full stomach, bigger than 1/3 Timbavati male which they weighed at 259kg with only around 5kg of content. His skull is displayed at the Timbavati museum, it got measured as the third largest lion skull in history. His skull is bigger than that of Doctor Kock's lion from Kenya which weighed 272kg with an empty stomach! Literally the second largest free-roaming lion ever weighed, barely smaller than the biggest one, that 287kg male with 5-10kg of content, forgot his ID, but his nickname was "the one who eats buffalo" from eastern Africa. BDM was probably much bigger than Mbiris, never mind PCM, still, going by the photos of the injuries, Scar did more damage. So you think they would be weaker than PCM just because they're 10yo, but still in great shape? 
In my opinion, being bigger than other males wouldn't make any difference, especially when it's a territorial male in it's prime age
 (03-23-2024, 12:46 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Tr1x24Scar is definitely a monster of a male lion and still going strong,followed him closely for years now. The pcm are brutes but cant see them comparing to the mbiri with size ,who knows about strength. I'd say the pcm have never been truely tested(yet) like the mbiri have,the mbiri always seem to be in scrapes but seem to come out of them,just with a few extra scars. Everyone likes a big male lion but Numbers count much more than the size of any lion
Honestly, there are so many variables in a fight, that the only way to figure out who would win is to put them in a cage and let them duke it out.
@Mapokser regardless what happened before etc, i dont want to go in that as theres a lot of miss information and debatable topics.
But you favor this 2 current males (recent footage, around 2 week or so ago): https://www.facebook.com/share/r/psoXNDkRjEX5Lt5R/  *This image is copyright of its original author Against prime PCMs or Gijimas? Ok... I just dont see it.. They where hiding from Guernsey and Avoca for months, and where prob lucky in the end that Guernsey didnt had partner his age or experience, otherwise they would be nomads or worse by now. |
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