As I began my researching of the Talamati/Msutlu Pride, one of the first articles I came across was a Londolozi Blog post, written by Robert Ball, in 2022. TAs Criollo2mil pointed out, the blog post contains a lot of the information previously covered by @Potato in post #233 of the Lion Tales thread, located here:

https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-lion-ta...#pid181563

Our good friend, @criollo2mil has also stated that he would assist us in bringing us even further up to date, into the Msutlu era as well.

The Londolozi Blog post, by Robert Ball, can be veiwed here:

https://blog.londolozi.com/2022/07/25/th...-are-they/

Borrowed directly from the Londolozi post:


The Talamati Pride: Who Are They?



What has been your favourite surprise of the year so far?



2022 has been somewhat of a whirlwind and the first half of the year has flown by. Perhaps your best surprise may have been your children unexpectedly joining you for your birthday, or perhaps it was finding a crumpled up $20 note in the pocket of an old pair of jeans that you forgot about, or perhaps it was the ability to travel again, and being able to travel to Londolozi? For the ranging team at Londolozi, there has been one surprise that ranks above most – the arrival of a new pride of lions.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Jess Shillaw




Two of the sub-adult lionesses from the Talamati pride chase each other on the banks of the Sand River. These lions have provided some seriously great viewing of late!
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It was in mid-April that the Talamati Pride had officially arrived on Londolozi for the first time that we can recall. They had been seen once or twice in the far north-western reaches of the reserve before this, but on this occasion, they seemed to have arrived with the intention of sticking around. They had killed a kudu just to the North of the Sand River and then proceeded to cross south through the river the next morning, progressing further and further into Londolozi – land they had not yet traversed.
To say that they, “announced their arrival” is somewhat inaccurate, they rather attempted to stay under the radar and not cause a huge stir – most likely because they knew they were in a foreign area in which there may be an existing pride or coalition of males.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Robert Ball



Two of the young male lions in the pride following the path that their mother and sisters had already taken. These males are already very large, they will have a tough few years ahead of them before potentially attempting to claim a territory of their own as a coalition of brothers.
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They have continued to exhibit this behaviour, moving large distances during the night and into the late hours of the morning, attempting to remain
undetected by other lions that might be in the vicinity. One thing for certain is that they have provided some quality game viewing, and so we hope that they decide to stay!

*This image is copyright of its original author

Tayla Brown



Late one evening, the pride was found attempting to hunt a family of four porcupines on the airstrip! Something you certainly don’t see every day or night.
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And so the question remains – who is the Talamati Pride and where do they come from? I shall try to keep this as brief and simple as possible, as we know – lion dynamics can get complicated! To our knowledge, this is what we have managed to unveil about these spectacular lions.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Robert Ball



The Talamati Pride broke away from the Nkuhuma Pride in 2007 when the Mapogo Males took over from the Manyelethi Males. At this point, they were known as the Nkuhuma Breakaway Pride. They established territory north of their natal pride where they were then taken over by the ‘Old Nkuhuma Males’. After a bout of mating, the females gave birth to two females, one of which is blind in one eye (known as silver-eye) who are now the oldest lionesses in the Talamati Pride. One year later in 2008, the pride dispersed to the Kruger National Park with the ‘Old Nkuhuma Males’.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The infamous Mapogo coalition. These males ruled most of the Sabi Sands during their tenure
 
It was in 2011 that they were formerly named the ‘Talamati pide’ after the Talamati Bushveld Camp, with Talamati meaning ‘lots of water’ in Xitsonga. The pride returned to the Sabi Sands later that year. Soon after their return, they were taken over by the Matimba Males and by this stage ‘Silver-eye’ and her sister were reaching sexual maturity and would then mate with the Matimba Males and have cubs of their own. Of all the cubs sired by the Matimba males, only one female survived and is no longer with the pride. When the Matimba Males were chased out by the Birmingham Males in 2015, the Selati Males moved in and claimed the Talamati Pride of which there were five females now. Two old females died during the Selati reign, leaving the pride with three lionesses in it.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Dan Hirschowitz



The last surviving member of the Birmingham coalition.
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In early 2019 the male lion dynamics were stirred up with the Nothern Avoca Male Coalition of three brothers starting to make a name for themselves. They forced the Birmingham Males Southwards and claimed the Nkuhuma pride as their own and removed the Selati males as the dominant force over the Talamati pride, claiming these lionesses as their own too.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Robert Ball



One of the two older lionesses in the pride, around 15 years old, has gone blind in one eye and has a noticeable blueish/grey colour. We aren’t sure exactly how this happened and how severely it has impacted her eyesight. We assume it has impaired her hunting ability to a certain extent.
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In late 2019/early 2020, the Nkuhuma Pride shifted south, and so did the Talamati pride. It was also at this time that the Dark-maned Avoca Male separated himself from his two brothers and associated himself strictly with the Talamati lionesses – of which there were 5 at the time, three older females and two younger females.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Robert Ball


The Dark Maned Avoca Male gazes towards the Talamati Pride ahead of him. If you focus carefully on his front right foot you will notice that it is slightly injured with a bump in what we could classify as the wrist joint, and we believe it has been this way for a couple of years already.
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In 2021, the Imbali male (a male lion whose territory lies slightly further east) sensed that the Dark-maned Northern Avoca Male was alone and attempted to claim the Talamati as his own. The hostile takeover was halted when three Talamati lionesses (the sole Matimba daughter and the two Selati Daughters) left their pride and mated with the Imbali male as they had now come back into estrus.
These weren’t the only losses for the pride around this time… It was in early 2019 that The Northern Avoca brothers sired nine cubs, six female and three male. Unfortunately, one male and one female sub-adult from these litters died in 2021, and another female sub-adult was killed by the Plains Camp Males in early 2022, leaving four sub-adult females and two sub-adult males.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Sean Zeederberg



A young male already looking formidable.
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This brings us to the pride as we see it today: Two adult lionesses and six sub-adults. Naturally, the sub-adults are roaming around and will at times separate themselves away from their natal pride. For that reason, we usually see the core, consisting of the older two lionesses and two sub-adult males and two sub-adult females.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Sean Zeederberg



As the rest of the Talamati Pride drinks from the Sand River, the oldest female takes the bold steps in leading the way through the water.
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*This image is copyright of its original author

Sean Zeederberg



Two younger females are the first to follow.
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And so the next question springs to mind – what next for the pride? I have to believe that in the coming 6 months to a year the pride will be dominated by a new coalition of males. Whether it’s the Plain’s camp males to the West, the Imbali male to the North or Ndzhenga males to the south east – who knows. The Dark-maned Avoca is somewhat struggling to keep up with the vast distances that the pride covers and is no longer advertising his territory vocally or via olfactory functions. It’s a matter of time before the sub-adult females come into estrus themselves and other males find out about it.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Sean Zeederberg



The young females are nearing the point where they will come into estrus and seek out the dominant males to mate with, the question which males will it be?
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One thing is for sure, we will keep you updated with the pride’s progress should they decide to stay on Londolozi permanently!

All, with my deepest regret I must inform everyone that I have made a terrible mistake, and deleted the Talamati thread. I am waiting to hear back from our Webmaster, on if it can be restored or not. I will inform everyone, in this thread the answers he provides.

I know full well, the work that so many of you put into making that thread one of our most active and informative thread. I can only hope that you all may forgive me for my blunder. If it can be restored, then all will be right with the world again. If it cannot, we will look to begin a new thread.

Please do not let this discourage any of you from sharing your wealth of knowledge with the rest of us, after all it is all of you that make the site so great to begin with. Any disappointment or frustration you have as a result of this should be directed at me, and me alone.

Thank you for understanding!

All, I am very sorry, but I have deleted the thread I recently created on difference of the brutality of man compared to other animals. The thread quickly became political, which is something we work very hard to keep out of WildFact. The web is full of such discussions, and WildFact is our sanctuary from such talk, therefore I made the decision to remove the thread, so that we all might return to posting about much more enjoyable and important topics, the animals of the world.

@Cath2020 we can continue our conversation here, if you'd like. Perhaps we can get others involved as well, without flooding the Timbavati thread with OT banter. As I mentioned there, I do not blame you for the thoughts you have on the subject, as I agree with you on most of them, I just happen to believe that humans are much more brutal and cruel than what we see in apex predator behavior.

As for the compassion in people you spoke of, I'd say that also seems to be slowly eroding, something I blame in large part on the interwebs. One of the main reasons I continue to believe that WildFact is like an oasis in the middle of the Internet, because our community is largely made up of caring compassionate people, who are, for the most part kind to one another as we discuss wildlife, our shared interest. Most other places on the web are the opposite of that, more a reflection of our society, where it seems to have become common place for people to literally break out their phone and video record another's suffering, as opposed to actually leaving the phone in their pocket and providing assistance to them. It didn't use to be that way. Why do they do this? Because they know that there are millions of people who will click the play button, and many of them will feel nothing by witnessing the pain and suffering of another, or the pain and suffering of an innocent creature. We are becoming numb to the brutality and violence that plagues our streets, and have become more inclined to accept it than to actually do our part to bring an end to it. As long as it isn't us, or our loved ones, then it is not our business, seems to be how so many people see things in society today. As opposed to wild lions and tigers, where such things are simply a part of their every day existence.

In the situation between the Mbiris and the Guernsey Male, if the Birmingham Pride would have been near by, witnessing the carnage, they would not have been phased by it in the slightest. That is the world they live in, and they see such violence every single day of their lives. I say violence, though I believe I may be guilty of anthropomorphism myself, in describing their behavior as violence, I am just not sure how else we should describe it when lions attack other lions or prey animals with such ferocity. I believe humans are becoming more like that, instead of separating ourselves further from it, in spite of it being in our very nature to know that it is wrong, in that they are no longer being affected by violence or suffering, and it is heartbreaking to witness the breakdown of society in this way, because it is ingrained in us, that such violence is wrong, and if it isn't it should be. If we don't do something soon, to turn ourselves around from our current trajectory, we could lose a very large and important part of what it means to be human. In spite of all of that, at the end of the day, regardless of where humans go, lions and tigers will not change in that regard, it will simply continue to be a part of being one of them, just as it is today. That is exactly why I believe such brutality in humans is so much worse.

I do, still, agree with your sentiments that the situation between the Mbiris and the Guernsey Male was extremely brutal and painful to watch, on many levels, I still have not watched it fully yet. It isn't, as you mentioned typical wild lion behavior, but for the most part it also isn't the first time any of us has seen such behavior out of wild lions, either. The 5th Majin, and oddly enough just a few hours later Kinky Tail, were both very similar to what happened to GM, minus the dragging around of the corpses of course. Mbiris dragging his corpse several KM away from the site of the original occurrence, and continuing to feed on it, over several days, is not something I recall ever hearing about before. Perhaps there is a like situation involving tigers, that I am unaware of, but I have never heard of that behavior in lions before.

That, in a nutshell, pretty much explains why I believe humans, in our current state, are more violent and brutal than wild lions. I'll be very interested in your thoughts, as well as those of others if they'd like to join in on the conversation, I'd like to hear from them as well.

Hello I'm Wolf Nuijten and I'm currently working on a school project for my senior year. I study product design and I want to make a product that scares animals away. I don't want my product to harm animals so guns are overruled. The animals I'm focusing on live in regions like Alaska, Canada and North-America. Currently I'm focusing on bears, deer and wolves. 

How do you prevent coming face to face with an animal? 
What to do if you come face to face? 
What do I need to bring if I'm going on hikes in regions like this?
How do I scare them away in general? 

If someone knows a lot about this subject, that would really help me out. 

Thank you very much.

Hey everyone, 

I'm in need of some creative input! I recently adopted an adorable fox companion, and I'm searching for the perfect name. She's playful, mischievous, and has the most captivating eyes. I want a name that reflects her personality and charm. I've been brainstorming a few options like "Fiona," "Juniper," and "Sunny," but I'm open to suggestions! What are some cute and unique names you can think of for a fox? Any inspiration from literature, mythology, or nature would be fantastic.

Hello, I'm new here, a pleasure.

Let's talk about this topic.
well, I mean, there's a great explanation's for this, it's on r/jaguarland.
the post is "Jaguar weights and Measurements compilation:A review."

It's really worth it, I recomend you see it, it's really worth it.

but I will say one thing.

They didn't estimate Joker to be 159 kg, he was 155 kg.
Furthermore, yes, probably 128 cm of chest would be the normal size for a jaguar over 140 kg.
But one thing is a jaguar with a chest measuring 128 cm, but with all other measurements being average.
Another thing is Joker who, in addition to his 128 cm chest, also has a 1.80 m body, which is exceptional for a Jaguar, a neck circumference compared to that of a leopard and several other things, which makes him over 150 kg.

Check out this new thread that focuses on the new cheetah reintroduction project in Saudi Arabia.

What are the typical skull length and skull width of both wild and captive lionesses? Also, what about their typical shoulder height?

New cubs for Avoca pride ! https://x.com/LIONLOVERS5/status/1744066633214079023?s=20