There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Similar to what I saw in captive Amur tigers playing with wood and rope: they rise on their hind legs, use the claws to hold on and tire the opponent, bite sideways and can keep in that position for 10-30 seconds. The jaw strength often is amazing. I saw quite a few wooden poles completely destroyed after some time.
As to estimating weight. You first need to know the age of the tiger. In captivity, they reach adulthood sooner than in the wild. Most captive adult male Amur tigers, at about 175-215 cm. in head and body length in a straight line, average 170-240 kg. in their prime. The robusticy-index, therefore, is 1.00 - 1.15. If the tiger is long, tall and lanky, the index usually is lower (0.80 - 1.0). If the tiger is muscular, it is 1.15-1.35, at times even higher. If the tiger is both long (in excess of 200 cm. straight) and robust (index 1.30 or higher), a rare combination, the maximum weight can range between 250-280 kg. Exceptional individuals can exceed 300 kg. without being obese.
This in typical captive male Amur tigers. With 'typical', I mean the front part of the body is much more developed than the lower back and hind legs. If the tiger is bulky in that department as well, the weight could exceed 300 kg. The white male tiger in a facility in South-Africa, although not very long and tall, was 299 kg. because he was bulky all the way. Hard to believe, but true.
Typical Indian tigers not seldom are massive in all respects. At average length (170-200 cm. in head and body length), males still often well exceed 200 kg. in their prime. Typical Amur tigers have a different model (see above). An Amur tiger mixed with a different subspecies often exceeds his parents in size. They also have a different attitude (more alert, more high-strung and more explosive).
12-28-2018, 12:25 AM( This post was last modified: 12-28-2018, 12:26 AM by Amnon242 )
(12-27-2018, 08:30 AM)johnny rex Wrote: So, so far what's the biggest cat in terms of head/skull size, shoulder height, weight, etc. that you've observed personally @Amnon242 ?
Hi Johnny, interesting questions...so when it comes to the tallest cat, I would probably choose this barbary...and he has possibly the biggest head. On the other hand, the widest skull belongs to that slim (but also very tall and long) amur. The heaviest is probably that amur male standing next to female of average size. The male is estimated to be 300 kg. BTW when it comes to height, these tigers are very close to that lion...
Similar to what I saw in captive Amur tigers playing with wood and rope: they rise on their hind legs, use the claws to hold on and tire the opponent, bite sideways and can keep in that position for 10-30 seconds. The jaw strength often is amazing. I saw quite a few wooden poles completely destroyed after some time.
As to estimating weight. You first need to know the age of the tiger. In captivity, they reach adulthood sooner than in the wild. Most captive adult male Amur tigers, at about 175-215 cm. in head and body length in a straight line, average 170-240 kg. in their prime. The robusticy-index, therefore, is 1.00 - 1.15. If the tiger is long, tall and lanky, the index usually is lower (0.80 - 1.0). If the tiger is muscular, it is 1.15-1.35, at times even higher. If the tiger is both long (in excess of 200 cm. straight) and robust (index 1.30 or higher), a rare combination, the maximum weight can range between 250-280 kg. Exceptional individuals can exceed 300 kg. without being obese.
This in typical captive male Amur tigers. With 'typical', I mean the front part of the body is much more developed than the lower back and hind legs. If the tiger is bulky in that department as well, the weight could exceed 300 kg. The white male tiger in a facility in South-Africa, although not very long and tall, was 299 kg. because he was bulky all the way. Hard to believe, but true.
Typical Indian tigers not seldom are massive in all respects. At average length (170-200 cm. in head and body length), males still often well exceed 200 kg. in their prime. Typical Amur tigers have a different model (see above). An Amur tiger mixed with a different subspecies often exceeds his parents in size. They also have a different attitude (more alert, more high-strung and more explosive).
When it comes to weight I personally would say, that PRIME captive amur males are usually 190 - 260 kg. 170 kg is not impossible, but its really low...
BTW this amur male is one of the biggest I have ever seen (but the photo is not mine), certainly over 250 kg. Bear like creature, with heavy front part of the body...
When it comes to attitude, various big cat breeders told me, that mentality of tigers (or felids) depends on how wild or domesticated their ancestors are (what is the captive generation), whether they have been raised with other animals or with humans and what is their captive environment (incl. enrichment). All breeders told me that they dont see any difference among various tiger subspecies - its strictly individual. Also tigers are extremely variable when it comes to mentality, in contrast to lions, who are more or less the same - perhaps this is the reason, why tigers are more "controversial" - as far as I know every breeder or trainer likes lions, but there are some who really dislike tigers.
Not sure where you are getting that amnon. Most trainers tend to be working with tigers only, because they are generally more docile than lions. I dont believe that. Anybody who dislikes tigers like that is clearly out of his mind dumb or delusional, who would dislike tigers?
(12-28-2018, 03:48 AM)paul cooper Wrote: Not sure where you are getting that amnon. Most trainers tend to be working with tigers only, because they are generally more docile than lions. I dont believe that. Anybody who dislikes tigers like that is clearly out of his mind dumb or delusional, who would dislike tigers?
For example those who have bad experience with them. Tigers are said to be smart, but also sly. Some are docile, even very shy, but some are hyperagressive...and so on...
(12-27-2018, 08:30 AM)johnny rex Wrote: So, so far what's the biggest cat in terms of head/skull size, shoulder height, weight, etc. that you've observed personally @Amnon242 ?
Hi Johnny, interesting questions...so when it comes to the tallest cat, I would probably choose this barbary...and he has possibly the biggest head. On the other hand, the widest skull belongs to that slim (but also very tall and long) amur. The heaviest is probably that amur male standing next to female of average size. The male is estimated to be 300 kg. BTW when it comes to height, these tigers are very close to that lion...
I think what you mean by biggest head is the longest head. Are you sure it's a genetically Barbary lion, not a Southern African lion? Because Barbary lions were thought to be extinct and not as tall.
Yes, it does looks like the slim Siberian tiger, if I'm not mistaken his name is Igor, have a wide massive skull. The other male Siberian that is estimated to weigh 300 kg also seems to have a big skull, compared to the female.
Similar to what I saw in captive Amur tigers playing with wood and rope: they rise on their hind legs, use the claws to hold on and tire the opponent, bite sideways and can keep in that position for 10-30 seconds. The jaw strength often is amazing. I saw quite a few wooden poles completely destroyed after some time.
As to estimating weight. You first need to know the age of the tiger. In captivity, they reach adulthood sooner than in the wild. Most captive adult male Amur tigers, at about 175-215 cm. in head and body length in a straight line, average 170-240 kg. in their prime. The robusticy-index, therefore, is 1.00 - 1.15. If the tiger is long, tall and lanky, the index usually is lower (0.80 - 1.0). If the tiger is muscular, it is 1.15-1.35, at times even higher. If the tiger is both long (in excess of 200 cm. straight) and robust (index 1.30 or higher), a rare combination, the maximum weight can range between 250-280 kg. Exceptional individuals can exceed 300 kg. without being obese.
This in typical captive male Amur tigers. With 'typical', I mean the front part of the body is much more developed than the lower back and hind legs. If the tiger is bulky in that department as well, the weight could exceed 300 kg. The white male tiger in a facility in South-Africa, although not very long and tall, was 299 kg. because he was bulky all the way. Hard to believe, but true.
Typical Indian tigers not seldom are massive in all respects. At average length (170-200 cm. in head and body length), males still often well exceed 200 kg. in their prime. Typical Amur tigers have a different model (see above). An Amur tiger mixed with a different subspecies often exceeds his parents in size. They also have a different attitude (more alert, more high-strung and more explosive).
When it comes to weight I personally would say, that PRIME captive amur males are usually 190 - 260 kg. 170 kg is not impossible, but its really low...
BTW this amur male is one of the biggest I have ever seen (but the photo is not mine), certainly over 250 kg. Bear like creature, with heavy front part of the body...
When it comes to attitude, various big cat breeders told me, that mentality of tigers (or felids) depends on how wild or domesticated their ancestors are (what is the captive generation), whether they have been raised with other animals or with humans and what is their captive environment (incl. enrichment). All breeders told me that they dont see any difference among various tiger subspecies - its strictly individual. Also tigers are extremely variable when it comes to mentality, in contrast to lions, who are more or less the same - perhaps this is the reason, why tigers are more "controversial" - as far as I know every breeder or trainer likes lions, but there are some who really dislike tigers.
You've seen this tiger too? So this tiger possessed the biggest skull of all the other cats that you've observed personally?
(12-27-2018, 08:30 AM)johnny rex Wrote: So, so far what's the biggest cat in terms of head/skull size, shoulder height, weight, etc. that you've observed personally @Amnon242 ?
Hi Johnny, interesting questions...so when it comes to the tallest cat, I would probably choose this barbary...and he has possibly the biggest head. On the other hand, the widest skull belongs to that slim (but also very tall and long) amur. The heaviest is probably that amur male standing next to female of average size. The male is estimated to be 300 kg. BTW when it comes to height, these tigers are very close to that lion...
I think what you mean by biggest head is the longest head. Are you sure it's a genetically Barbary lion, not a Southern African lion? Because Barbary lions were thought to be extinct and not as tall.
Yes, it does looks like the slim Siberian tiger, if I'm not mistaken his name is Igor, have a wide massive skull. The other male Siberian that is estimated to weigh 300 kg also seems to have a big skull, compared to the female.
IMO that lion has longest and overall biggest head, but Igor would be very close, maybe bigger. Another point is that I saw that lion n 2012 and Igor in 2013, 14 and 15...so for me its not easy to judge the size of their heads now...
Anyway, that lion is oficially barbary. He is very tall, but also slim. I estimate is weight to be 190-200 kg (btw Igor is 220 kg weighted and 5 yo at the photo...in 7yo he had 240 kg). I have seen 3 sons of that barbary lion (one of them is older) and all are very impressive when it comes to height. And they are also more robust than their father, so each of them is probably over 200 kg. But I have seen another adult babary and he was the smallest lion I have ever seen. And yet another babrbay male was of average height and 180 kg (my estimate). I have seen 5 barbary lionesses and they were of average or rather underaverage size. Barbary lions are sometimes said to be the biggest subspecies, I personally would rather disagree, but there are really impressive individuals among them.
Similar to what I saw in captive Amur tigers playing with wood and rope: they rise on their hind legs, use the claws to hold on and tire the opponent, bite sideways and can keep in that position for 10-30 seconds. The jaw strength often is amazing. I saw quite a few wooden poles completely destroyed after some time.
As to estimating weight. You first need to know the age of the tiger. In captivity, they reach adulthood sooner than in the wild. Most captive adult male Amur tigers, at about 175-215 cm. in head and body length in a straight line, average 170-240 kg. in their prime. The robusticy-index, therefore, is 1.00 - 1.15. If the tiger is long, tall and lanky, the index usually is lower (0.80 - 1.0). If the tiger is muscular, it is 1.15-1.35, at times even higher. If the tiger is both long (in excess of 200 cm. straight) and robust (index 1.30 or higher), a rare combination, the maximum weight can range between 250-280 kg. Exceptional individuals can exceed 300 kg. without being obese.
This in typical captive male Amur tigers. With 'typical', I mean the front part of the body is much more developed than the lower back and hind legs. If the tiger is bulky in that department as well, the weight could exceed 300 kg. The white male tiger in a facility in South-Africa, although not very long and tall, was 299 kg. because he was bulky all the way. Hard to believe, but true.
Typical Indian tigers not seldom are massive in all respects. At average length (170-200 cm. in head and body length), males still often well exceed 200 kg. in their prime. Typical Amur tigers have a different model (see above). An Amur tiger mixed with a different subspecies often exceeds his parents in size. They also have a different attitude (more alert, more high-strung and more explosive).
When it comes to weight I personally would say, that PRIME captive amur males are usually 190 - 260 kg. 170 kg is not impossible, but its really low...
BTW this amur male is one of the biggest I have ever seen (but the photo is not mine), certainly over 250 kg. Bear like creature, with heavy front part of the body...
When it comes to attitude, various big cat breeders told me, that mentality of tigers (or felids) depends on how wild or domesticated their ancestors are (what is the captive generation), whether they have been raised with other animals or with humans and what is their captive environment (incl. enrichment). All breeders told me that they dont see any difference among various tiger subspecies - its strictly individual. Also tigers are extremely variable when it comes to mentality, in contrast to lions, who are more or less the same - perhaps this is the reason, why tigers are more "controversial" - as far as I know every breeder or trainer likes lions, but there are some who really dislike tigers.
You've seen this tiger too? So this tiger possessed the biggest skull of all the other cats that you've observed personally?
This tiger (in the video) is called Oliver, i saw him in 2014 when he was 2 yo. He was of standard size, now he is probably over 200 kg.
That massive tiger was called Skip and I saw him in 2013. He was 17yo back then but still impressive...very impressive. Next to him was another amur male, 200 kg (weighted) and Skip was obviously substantially larger.
When it comes to skulls I would choose that barbary lion or Igor...but basically I have no idea, for me all those huge felids have more or less same skulls
Zoos, Circuses, Safaris: A Gallery of Captivity
