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Which are stronger pound for pound Herbivores or Carnivores?

Nepal Jimmy Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-26-2017, 06:21 PM by Jimmy )

@parvez, i wold not like to make this bro simply cuz the difference is so great with no size overlap between them at all. Pound for pound Tiger will be powerful than all i think, with it's thick limbs and a top predator is bound to be a strong animal anyways, concerning it has to take down and wrestle with prey and if it was elephant size and 5 ton weight u can see the discussion regarding this will start to become like a fantasy.
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India parvez Offline
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@brotherbear and @Jimmy thanks for your opinions. It means a lot. I too assumed at equal weights tiger should be stronger. But had some doubts regarding rhinos. I have read somewhere rhinos should be the strongest pound for pound but cannot recollect the source. Elephants and water buffalo too are not far away. Tigers should be effective in protein  synthesis and also the wear and shear they undergo during their hunting, movement through vegetation and various factors. Where as protein synthesis through grasses in herbivores should be a prolonged process and should not be as effective as in tigers'.
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United States brotherbear Offline
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Well, from myself, it's nothing more than opinion. But, you also have to consider that not every carnivore is a tiger. Herbivore vs Carnivore is much to wide of a topic. I believe that in equal amounts, meat will pack-on more muscle and build bones more adequately than plant materials. But then, most vegetarians can eat larger quantities of food and spend more time eating.
 ~ ~ Grizzly - Ursus arctos - Brown Bear ~ ~         
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United States Polar Online
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Kale, lentils, and other vegan sources such as soy have plenty of protein themselves, but these are mainly what humans eat. I would assume most herbivores eat protein-depleted vegetation, and also as an example, carnivorous bears absorb more protein and size than one that don't eat as much meat, primarily due to most of their vegetation being protein-depleted.
"Lions, tigers, bears, AND polar bears, oh my!"

- Polar, September 2017
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United States Polar Online
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(01-26-2017, 06:40 PM)parvez Wrote: @brotherbear and @Jimmy thanks for your opinions. It means a lot. I too assumed at equal weights tiger should be stronger. But had some doubts regarding rhinos. I have read somewhere rhinos should be the strongest pound for pound but cannot recollect the source. Elephants and water buffalo too are not far away. Tigers should be effective in protein  synthesis and also the wear and shear they undergo during their hunting, movement through vegetation and various factors. Where as protein synthesis through grasses in herbivores should be a prolonged process and should not be as effective as in tigers'.

I agree with your protein synthesis theory, since it is proven that amino acids from meat (of any kind) are more transferable to ribosomes of cells than amino acids from vegetation are. Rhino might be the strongest herbivore pound-for-pound due to its extremely robust structure, thick neck (neck strength), thick and short limbs (arm leverage and strength), high muscle mass for its body mass (info from Carnivora), and higher limb flexibility than bovines or cervids: much like bears in these regards. The picture below shows the rhino's muscular robusticity and overall bulky design:


*This image is copyright of its original author
"Lions, tigers, bears, AND polar bears, oh my!"

- Polar, September 2017
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India parvez Offline
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@Polar sorry to ask like this but do you mean polar bears are stronger than brown and other bears pound for pound?
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India parvez Offline
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I have read in Wikipedia that polar bears assimilate 84% of protein. That's impressive.
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India parvez Offline
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I came across this regarding the strength of Indian one horned rhino, woo amazing 
*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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United States Pckts Online
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( This post was last modified: 07-13-2017, 12:22 PM by sanjay )

(01-27-2017, 05:06 AM)Polar Wrote:
(01-26-2017, 06:40 PM)parvez Wrote: @brotherbear and @Jimmy thanks for your opinions. It means a lot. I too assumed at equal weights tiger should be stronger. But had some doubts regarding rhinos. I have read somewhere rhinos should be the strongest pound for pound but cannot recollect the source. Elephants and water buffalo too are not far away. Tigers should be effective in protein  synthesis and also the wear and shear they undergo during their hunting, movement through vegetation and various factors. Where as protein synthesis through grasses in herbivores should be a prolonged process and should not be as effective as in tigers'.

I agree with your protein synthesis theory, since it is proven that amino acids from meat (of any kind) are more transferable to ribosomes of cells than amino acids from vegetation are. Rhino might be the strongest herbivore pound-for-pound due to its extremely robust structure, thick neck (neck strength), thick and short limbs (arm leverage and strength), high muscle mass for its body mass (info from Carnivora), and higher limb flexibility than bovines or cervids: much like bears in these regards. The picture below shows the rhino's muscular robusticity and overall bulky design:


*This image is copyright of its original author
Here's a good breakdown on the process of meat v plant based proteins


"Somewhere down the line in history, people got the idea that meat is the only food which contains any significant amount of protein. Hence why vegetarians are always getting asked the question "where do you get your protein?"-- even though it is actually very easy to get enough protein on a vegetarian or even vegan diet. To put this in perspective, consider that a cup of lentils has about 18g of protein, so it would take less than 3 cups of lentils to get your protein RDA. Even foods like bananas and spinach contain some protein.

But some people have taken the argument further by saying things like, "but plants aren't complete proteins" and imply that, even though plants do contain protein, that this protein is somehow inferior. So let's look at what the real differences between plant and animal proteins are.


What Are Proteins?
A protein is one of the primary building blocks of your body. They are what make up muscle, bone, skin, hair and many other tissues in your body. If we don't count water, then 75% of our bodies by weight are made up of protein.
There are over 10,000 different types of proteins in our bodies.This number is a bit misleading though, because all of those different proteins are made up of the same 22 amino acids (some sources will say it is 20 amino acids). Amino acids are the building blocks of protein, and they link together in different ways. Depending on how the amino acids are linked, a different protein will be formed.
Of the 22 amino acids humans use, 9 of them are considered "essential" and the rest are "non essential." (Note some sources say there are 8 essential amino acids) Just because the rest are non-essential, it doesn't mean we don't need them. It just means that our bodies can produce them on their own from the essential amino acids. Our bodies cannot create essential amino acids, so we need to get these from food sources.

*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.google.rs/search?q=muscle+pr...p%253A%252

What Happens When We Eat Protein?
When you eat a food with protein in it (and almost all foods contain some amount of protein – even salad!), your body breaks down the protein into its amino acids.These amino acids are then sent through the body.The amino acids are recombined to create new proteins (remember, there are 10,000+ different types of protein in your body!). So, some of the veggie burger you ate turns into muscle proteins, some into hair proteins, some into hormone proteins, and so on.
Is There Really A Difference between Animal and Plant Proteins?
In terms of components, there is no different between animal and plant proteins.They are both made up of amino acids, and they both contain the same 22 amino acids. However, the ratio of these amino acids is different.
It is commonly cited that "plant foods aren't complete proteins," meaning that they don't contain all of the essential amino acids.Well, this isn't exactly true because there are plenty of vegan complete proteins, like pumpkin seeds, chia seeds, and hemp seeds. But it is true that meat is more likely to contain all the essential amino acids.
Does this mean that vegetarians and vegans won't be able to get all of their essential amino acids? Absolutely not.
Most people don't eat the same thing all day long. So, while it may be true that peas are lacking in the essential amino acid methionine, foods like peppers, spinach, shallots, and tomatoes all contain this amino acid. So long as you eat a variety of foods, you are bound to get all of the essential amino acids you need.
*There is no need to get all amino acids during the same meal! So, you don't have to worry about complex protein combinations to get all your amino acids. Just eat a variety of food throughout the day. Besides, who likes to eat nothing but peas all day long?
Calories, Cholesterol, and Saturated Fat
While there really aren't any differences between plant and animal protein in terms of components (just different arrangements and ratios of amino acids), there are differences in what else accompanies the proteins.
Meat is notoriously high in calories, cholesterol, and saturated fat – all of which is accredited to growing health problems like obesity and heart disease (okay, the cholesterol one is now controversial, but excess calories and fat are definitely no bueno).
To put this in perspective, when we compare a gram of protein from lentils with gram of protein from 85% lean beef:
A gram of beef protein contains 14.25 times more fat than a gram of protein from lentils
A gram of beef protein contains 23 times more saturated fat than a gram of protein from lentils.
There may be even more harmful compounds in meat as well. Studies have long shown a link between consumption of red meat and cancer. Recently, scientists think they have found the culprit in red meat which causes cancer. They found a link between cancer and a molecule found in red meat. The molecule, Neu5Gc, is found in high amounts in beef, bison, lamb, and pork. It is not found in fruits and vegetables. The molecule triggers an inflammation response, which can lead to long-term inflammation and tumor growth.
There are also other studies which indicate that consuming high amounts of meat can be dangerous for your health or cause cancer, such as Heterocyclic amines (HCAs) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) which form when meat is cooked at high temperatures, or the calcium which is released when high amounts of sulfur-containing meat is consumed.
The bottom line? Vegetarians and vegans may need to worry about some nutrients like iron and B12, but protein probably isn't going to be an issue. You can easily get enough protein and essential amino acids on a plant-based diet, and you will probably experience some health benefits too!"

http://beyondmeat.com/whats-new/view/pla...difference-
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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India parvez Offline
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@Pckts great article. But how about carnivores that feed on meat? They seemed to have developed resistance against diseases. Or is it that domesticated animals that feed on human made foods contain harmful ingredients? Either could be the case.
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United States Pckts Online
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( This post was last modified: 07-13-2017, 12:32 AM by Pckts )

(07-12-2017, 11:40 PM)parvez Wrote: @Pckts great article. But how about carnivores that feed on meat? They seemed to have developed resistance against diseases. Or is it that domesticated animals that feed on human made foods contain harmful ingredients? Either could be the case.

My understanding is that it has to do with the length of your digestive tract and the enzymes they contain in their stomachs and saliva (for herbivores) . The reason carnivores don't have high cholesterol or heart disease is because they process their food very quickly, their short digestive tract means they get what nutrients they need then pass their food rapidly, herbivores have very long digestive tracks, they process their food much slower and suck out every single little nutrient they can from the less nutrient dense plant compared to meat. This is one of the main arguments as to why humans shouldn't eat meat, because our digestive tract is so long.

In regards to domestic animals, I do not know the specifics on what diseases they obtain compared to their wild counterparts, if any. But if I had to guess, I'd say it's a mix of a few factors.
1. The food they ingest, human food is significantly modified with many harmful hormones and pesticides depending on where it's from
2. Domestic animals immune system would probably be weaker due to inbreeding and other harmful breeding procedures that occur with domestic animals.
3. Living conditions, most would probably live in terrible conditions and be more susceptible to harmful unknown bacteria they may not encounter in the wild.


A general overview of the differences between the two
https://www.slideshare.net/bublyatif/dif...carnivores
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States Polar Online
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Nice article, @Pckts, so we can get all our essential amino acids from plant sources. We just need to diversify the plant sources is all.

However, as an addition, I feel as if the harmful substances in meat (Neu5Gc, HCAs, PAHs) are due to poor conditions of livestock and injected hormones into our meat, and since the meat isn't "natural" per-se, that may be why we are prone to many illnesses which are mainly caused by these hormones. First-world countries are very known to inject hormonal substances into their meats, so the unhealthiness of meat may not be a naturally-occurring, inherent thing.

Carnivores also have the ability to grow muscle at a super-advanced rate due to their bodies adapting to an excessive intake of animal protein, although I am not sure if this indicates a slow metabolism or not.
"Lions, tigers, bears, AND polar bears, oh my!"

- Polar, September 2017
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United States Pckts Online
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( This post was last modified: 07-13-2017, 03:53 AM by Pckts )

(07-13-2017, 03:32 AM)Polar Wrote: Nice article, @Pckts, so we can get all our essential amino acids from plant sources. We just need to diversify the plant sources is all.

However, as an addition, I feel as if the harmful substances in meat (Neu5Gc, HCAs, PAHs) are due to poor conditions of livestock and injected hormones into our meat, and since the meat isn't "natural" per-se, that may be why we are prone to many illnesses which are mainly caused by these hormones. First-world countries are very known to inject hormonal substances into their meats, so the unhealthiness of meat may not be a naturally-occurring, inherent thing.

Carnivores also have the ability to grow muscle at a super-advanced rate due to their bodies adapting to an excessive intake of animal protein, although I am not sure if this indicates a slow metabolism or not.

I'm not sure if they grow muscle at an advanced rate comparatively, I haven't seen any indication of this.

In regards to "complete proteins" this is an unnatural worry, you will have no issue getting all essential amino acids from any non meat dietary item throughout the day, as well as other plant based items that are complete proteins in themselves https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/12-comp...teins.html a balanced diet is required for any human and eating that way will easily hit your required dietary needs.


More on why humans most likely are herbivores

Facial Muscles

CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed

Jaw Type

CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location

CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion

CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles

CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size

CARNIVORE: Large HERBIVORE: Small OMNIVORE: Large HUMAN:
Small

Teeth: Incisors

CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth: Canines

CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted

Teeth: Molars

CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing

CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva

CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type

CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple

Stomach Acidity

CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity

CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine

CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

Colon

CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated

Liver

CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidney

CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine

Nails

CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails

http://www.ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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India parvez Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-13-2017, 01:01 PM by parvez )

Interesting article, but I think it explains about only processed meat. 
https://www.bustle.com/articles/137865-8...en-chicken
Carnivores for sure must be containing some antibodies that repel pathogens from meat. Otherwise they surely suffer from diseases.
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India parvez Offline
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Another interesting article. https://www.muscleforlife.com/animal-pro...t-protein/
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