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The Great Apes
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 (10-19-2018, 01:23 AM)Wolverine Wrote: @Shadow , your texts concerning gorilla-leopard relations are one of the most informative I have read, thanks. Do you know any video materials and photos concerning the interactions between these two species? Wolverine, no video material I think. I have seen several articles from that black panther gorilla episode from 1949. That is the reason why I think, that it is a pretty solid case. It is no news, that there have been unfortunate happenings back then in circuses and zoos. As even in these days happen time to time. Then again when there were more gorillas, than nowadays sadly is situation, times were different and not too much filmed material. I am not sure if someone has been so lucky in jungle, that able to film any occasions. Here is one research, where is mentioned also gorilla as prey and if I understood right, in this research they found 4 gorillas killed by leopards. http://www.ibs.bialowieza.pl/g2/pdf/1596.pdf I haven´t had time to look in.... should I say closer details. But when combining that old and new information what has been relatively easy to find, I am convinced, that leopards are a proven threat to gorillas also outside "world of Tarzan" :) But of course it´s easier to film lions in savannah than leopards in jungle, so I think, that there can be natural explanation for lack of videos. I wouldn´t go in night time to jungle with camera and hoping to find a leopard. Maybe some other people think same way..... (10-19-2018, 01:23 AM)Wolverine Wrote: @Shadow , your texts concerning gorilla-leopard relations are one of the most informative I have read, thanks. Do you know any video materials and photos concerning the interactions between these two species? I found a new case for me, where is told about leopards hunting gorillas. This is from the book: The year of the Gorilla. Writer George B. Schaller. Original published 1964. If someone is more interested, more text can be found, but I don´t put all here. 
WHY LEOPARDS ARE ABLE TO KILL GORILLAS
It seems that some posters are unwilling to accept that an adult male leopard is both willing and able to kill a primate at least two times his size. The infomation posted by Shadow, collected by people in the know, is however plenty convincing: there's no question whatsoever that leopards have attacked, killed and consumed gorillas, including adult males. But what about the great strength of adult male gorillas? Should be telling in conflict, no? Nobody is doubting the strength of gorillas, but other animals hunted and killed by leopards also are impressive in every way. We just didn't see it. One of the first things one needs to understand is leopards are big cats with a lot of experience in the department of primates. They have hunted them many thousands of years ago and they still hunt them today. Something else that needs to be considered is aggression. All big cats are born hunters with many thousands of years of experience. Only the most able bred. All wild adults have the psychological ability to attack and kill large and dangerous animals. When they see a real fight just in front of them, people often are unable to understand what is happening. The fury often is just too much for many. I've seen grown people run away from an enraged captive tiger, bars or no bars. Leopards are no different in this respect. Some of the trainers I interviewed consider adult leopards as outright psychopaths. What they were really saying is they, after many years, were still unable to understand the aggression they saw. Not of this world. And it isn't. One of the most able in this department was a captive female I saw in Switserland many years ago. She also was the smallest adult female I ever saw. I think she was about 50 pounds. Most dogs are heavier, that is. The day we visited the trainer with his animals on a market somewhere in a small town, she wasn't having her best day. The males interested in a chat were chased out of the cage in a way I never seen before. The only one she accepted was the trainer, a very big young man. He too, however, knew what she was capable of, as he had been wounded many times. In his opinion, she was able to kill him in seconds if she wanted to. After the demonstration I saw, I readily agreed. Aggression in overdrive, it was. If we add the speed, agility, strength and weapons of leopards, it's easy to understand why a 120-pound wild male leopard is able to destroy a big male gorilla two or three times his weight. Leopards, like all other wild big cats, do subspecies. In most part of central-western Africa, they're quite large. The most muscular skulls I saw belonged to male leopards shot in that part of Africa. I've seen longer, more elevated and wider skulls, but quite a few skulls from leopards shot in that part of Africa were heavy and well-developed, especially in the teeth department. The most impressive mandibulas and canines I saw. Here's an example of what I mean. The picture was taken by poster Wanderfalke in the Staatliches Museum fur Naturkunde Stuttgart in 2012. The skull right belonged to a wild male jaguar. It was one of the the longest and most elevated I saw. The skull left belonged to a male leopard from western Africa. Although smaller in all departments, it was, even without the canines, a mighty impressive skull:  *This image is copyright of its original author In another life, when out on your own, never ever underestimate a leopard. Lions and tigers evolved to deal with large mammals. Leopards evolved to deal with creatures like us and then some. Most unfortunately, they're very good at it. And the gorilla? Powerful beyond understanding and definitely capable of destroying even the largest leopard. But a predator is very different from a primate.  (10-19-2018, 04:40 PM)peter Wrote: It seems that some posters are unwilling to accept that an adult male leopard is both willing and able to kill a primate at least two times his size.Spot on, Peter. I think it has to do with the role leopards play when compared to lions, which most people feel connected to the lions first. And so they see this small cat, that yeah he's a good hunter but ends up second place behind the lion and even has to give up kills to hyenas or wild dogs. So that coupled with a leopard's size makes people forget the kind of perfect hunter it is. 
I understand that leopards are predators while gorillas are vegetarian and normally quiet and peaceful. I understand also that among the big cats of Asia and Africa, it is the leopard that more heavily preys on primates. But, for a leopard, a silverback gorilla should be easy to catch and easy to ambush. There is a lot of meat on a bull gorilla. Since there are not a large number of adult male gorilla remains found from leopard predation, I would assume that a leopard considers him to be risky prey.
I will add, a bull gorilla's response to an intruder is a buff charge. Not to scurry up a tree. The leopard is the only natural predator that a gorilla has, therefore the bluff charge is probably an adaptation primarily directed to the leopard. I have no idea what lived in the Congo during the Pleistocene. (10-20-2018, 01:49 PM)brotherbear Wrote: I understand that leopards are predators while gorillas are vegetarian and normally quiet and peaceful. I understand also that among the big cats of Asia and Africa, it is the leopard that more heavily preys on primates. But, for a leopard, a silverback gorilla should be easy to catch and easy to ambush. There is a lot of meat on a bull gorilla. Since there are not a large number of adult male gorilla remains found from leopard predation, I would assume that a leopard considers him to be risky prey. As far as I have looked about these animals, my own conclusion is, that when leopard hunt gorillas, it of course looks for the easiest target there, so it is naturally a young one. I think, that we have to remember to separate two things when we are talking about animals. One is, that what they do normally and most probably. Second is, that what they are capable to do when situation for some reason demands it. Then again remembering that, that when animal is doing something, what it is capable to do, for some compulsory reason, are there risks? I mean this, tiger is capable to attack a bear, also adult ones. Even male brown bear if it have to. Then again even though it is capable to do it, also to kill it, is it without risk? Absolutely not. That is why when we look for instance Amur tiger and brown bears, vast majority of killed bears are either females or young males/cubs, not adult males. Attacking adult male, tiger in a way "dives in deep water" and no idea if able to surface again. Same thing when we are looking at cases where bears have killed tigers. So yes, they are without a doubt capable to do something, still they don´t do that. So it is not probable and not normal thing to happen. Same thing for instance with lion and cape buffalo. A single male lion has proved, that it can kill even alone a buffalo. But then again is it normal thing to happen and something what people going to safari could wait to see as a probable thing.... not even close to that. These animals are not there to prove anything to us, they are there to get food. Multiple reasons can affect to their behavior in different situations. Male gorilla is a formidable creature to hunt for a leopard, it is so big, that it brings some natural respect from predator. From these cases what have been found, only case where it is proven, that attack was.... should I say "full frontal" was that case in the zoo. But that is unnatural place for a wild animal, so in that way it has no value (for me) in any other way, but proving what enraged panther/leopard is capable to do. In wilderness it is hard to imagine, that leopard would just walk there, revealing where it is, before making attack. Even if "specialized" individual to kill apes. Big cats everywhere make attacks after sneaking close to prey and revealing themselves only when actual attack happens, giving to prey only a split second time to react. This latest case with silverback, what I found, was told to be most probably attack at night to nest. I have read same kind of observations from Baumgartel, in cases, where male gorillas were killed. It looks like leopards have quite good skills and understanding how to kill a gorilla with minimal risk. At least some individuals seem to have that kind of skills. Like some lion prides kill more certain kind of prey than others. If looking closer and trying to find cases in which leopard would have made an attack to a gorilla at time, when they are awake, the number seems to be significantly smaller compared to night time hunting. Night time gives to leopard also benefit what comes to sense of sight. When combining that "night vision" to agility of a leopard, it is no wonder, that it is able to sneak close to gorillas so, that they have no clue what happens before too late. Suddenly there is screaming and roaring and before gorillas have time to take defence formation, it is already all over for one of them. Leopard gone in all that chaos. For me that makes sense. A leopard going for specifically the biggest possible male gorilla, without some surprise element, just is not the way they do it. So has it ever happened, I think that some lone silverback has payed the price to be overconfident or sloppy. Same could have happened to some leopard in such case. A lot of speculation there from me, but I have tried to do that based on known facts. For me those facts have formed a picture of hunting in darkness. Day time happens, but it is way more difficult for a leopard. What comes to adult male gorillas killed. It looks like many have been killed, but most of them with a very limited possibility for a "fair fight" if we look it from point of view like it would be sports. I think, that leopard keeps that kind of action "fair enough" because it is there to eat, not to prove us something. Maybe that happens mostly when there is less some other more normal prey for a leopard? I have no idea if anyone have researched about this. I think, that for instance Schaller had observations, that many times leopards just passed gorillas with no interest and long periods of times with no gorillas predated by leopards.
Makes good sense Shadow. At least this shows that a silverback gorilla is not a choice prey animal for a leopard and that gorillas in general not their first pick. I do hold that the gorilla's bluff charge ( which can turn serious ) was developed with the leopard in mind. In other words, as you agree, there is a great deal of risk involved in hunting gorillas, especially during daylight hours.
10-20-2018, 04:44 PM
( This post was last modified: 10-20-2018, 05:42 PM by Shadow
Edit Reason: one word missing
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(10-20-2018, 04:18 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Makes good sense Shadow. At least this shows that a silverback gorilla is not a choice prey animal for a leopard and that gorillas in general not their first pick. I do hold that the gorilla's bluff charge ( which can turn serious ) was developed with the leopard in mind. In other words, as you agree, there is a great deal of risk involved in hunting gorillas, especially during daylight hours. Yes, big gorilla charging would make most animals to think twice, I think. And of course leopards, which have met gorillas, have seen those warning attacks sometimes if too close, when getting spotted by gorillas.
Any idea what animals lived in "gorilla land" during the Pleistocene? Very curious and unable to find any info online.
(10-20-2018, 04:55 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Any idea what animals lived in "gorilla land" during the Pleistocene? Very curious and unable to find any info online. It can be a hard task. Here is one research and quote. "Western and Central Africa Very little is known about the Late Pleistocene verte- brate record from western and central Africa, because bone preservation tends to be poor and because few researchers have conducted paleontological and arche- ological research in the region. What little evidence that is available for the region, such as found in Mbi Crater, Cameroon, indicates that during the terminal Pleistocene animals tended to be more characteristic of open habitats, with hartebeest, korrigum, roan antelope, waterbuck, warthog, reedbuck, and bush duiker being present. Forest cover, while consistently present during the Late Pleistocene, increased in the Holocene, as seen by increasing numbers of various duikers, bushbuck, dwarf antelope, bush pig, giant hog, and leopards." Whole document is here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._of_Africa Maybe you have already read that before?
So, as far as we know, the great apes of Africa has never faced any predators larger than a leopard, which would explain their spending time on the ground ( knuckle-walking ) while the Asian apes are highly arboreal because of the tiger. I assume.
(10-20-2018, 09:35 PM)brotherbear Wrote: So, as far as we know, the great apes of Africa has never faced any predators larger than a leopard, which would explain their spending time on the ground ( knuckle-walking ) while the Asian apes are highly arboreal because of the tiger. I assume. I guess so, there have been lions in past at same areas, but since gorillas live in jungle and lions in savannah and other "open" areas, possible meetings with these two species have been at most marginal cases. Maybe some gorillas have in past been at tree line of jungle and looking a pride of lions from distance, making decision, that jungle is actually a very nice place to live in future too :) Who knows....
Credits to Liam Rainier.
His home range centered around the Ngaga camp in Odzala, this is the dominant silverback in his prime, his females and young follow him in confidence. An inspiring experience to be in the presence of Western Lowland Gorillas, a species of the great apes that was little known of just three decades ago, now researches estimate their numbers to be close to 100,000 individuals in a forests that receive few outsiders. I’d like to hope that this will remain.  *This image is copyright of its original author
Credits to Charlotte Blanchet - Lotus Blanc Photography.
Life in B&W - Gorillas (silverback) - Volcanoes National Park - Rwanda.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Zoopharmacognosy (self medication) in the great apes:
Great apes often consume plants that have no nutritional values but which have beneficial effects on gut acidity or combat intestinal parasitic infection. Chimpanzees sometimes select bitter leaves for chewing. Parasite infection drops noticeably after chimpanzees chew leaves of pith (Vernonia amyddalina), which have anti-parasitic activity against schistosoma, plasmodium and Leishmania. Chimpanzees don't consume this plant on a regular basis, but when they do eat it, it is often in small amounts by individuals that appear ill. Jane Goodall witnessed chimpanzees eating particular bushes, apparently to make themselves vomit. There are reports that chimpanzees swallow whole leaves of particular rough-leaved plants such as Aneilema aequinoctiale; these remove parasitic worms from their intestines. Chimpanzees sometimes eat the leaves of the herbaceous Desmodium gangeticum. Undigested, non-chewed leaves were recovered in 4% of faecal samples of wild chimpanzees and clumps of sharp-edged grass leaves in 2%. The leaves have a rough surface or sharp-edges and the fact they were not chewed and excreted whole indicates they were not ingested for nutritional purposes. Furthermore, this leaf-swallowing was restricted to the rainy season when parasite re-infections are more common, and parasitic worms (Oesophagostomum stephanostomum) were found together with the leaves. Chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas eat the fruits of Aframomum angustifolium. Laboratory assays of homogenized fruit and seed extracts show significant anti-microbial activity. Illustrating the medicinal knowledge of some species, apes have been observed selecting a particular part of a medicinal plant by taking off leaves and breaking the stem to suck out the juice. |
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