There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(02-05-2016, 04:59 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Dr_Panthera, do any of those sources produce measurements? If so, could you please share the full citation?
Those are trophy records from Safari Club International, you can only access the full reports ( the hunter report including measurements and the taxidermist and reviewer reports including more measurements) if you hunt and submit trophy yourself.
I requested info and better access even if I had to pay for it without me having to shoot an animal but I got zero cooperation once they knew my research interests versus hunting interests.
If full records are obtained we will have thousands of measurements for lions, leopards, and pumas , hundreds for cheetahs and jaguars ( plus thousands for brown bears and black bears and hundreds for other bears).
I will contact them again and share any info I obtain
(02-01-2016, 02:52 AM)Polar Wrote: What about the 272 (or was it 280?) kg lion from Timbawati? Was it proven adjusted for stomach content or not?
Timbawati lions do come in larger sizes than the rest of P. leo nubica (East African Lion) subspecies, tying in with the Ngorongoro population.
The veterinarian involved quoted 283 kg , stomach content was not known so if we use Bertram's rule you deduct anything from 0 to 30 kg.
Timbavati lions are similar to Kruger lions ( males average 200 kg in North Kruger Kleet et al. 189 kg in central Kruger Smuts et al. and 184 kg in southern Kruger Kleet) several males shot in Timbavati were gold trophies over 27''.
Despite the fact that the largest verified free ranging lion was shot in Kenya , and the likelihood that that 61 lions that inhabit the Ngorongoro crater are quite large, as a whole lions from southern Africa are slightly larger that their east Africa conspecifics who are also slightly larger that west African and Indian lions but of course individual variations are noticed.
02-06-2016, 04:44 AM( This post was last modified: 02-06-2016, 05:16 AM by Pckts )
(02-06-2016, 04:00 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote:
(02-05-2016, 04:59 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Dr_Panthera, do any of those sources produce measurements? If so, could you please share the full citation?
Those are trophy records from Safari Club International, you can only access the full reports ( the hunter report including measurements and the taxidermist and reviewer reports including more measurements) if you hunt and submit trophy yourself.
I requested info and better access even if I had to pay for it without me having to shoot an animal but I got zero cooperation once they knew my research interests versus hunting interests.
If full records are obtained we will have thousands of measurements for lions, leopards, and pumas , hundreds for cheetahs and jaguars ( plus thousands for brown bears and black bears and hundreds for other bears).
I will contact them again and share any info I obtain
If hunters really cared about "conservation" like so many claim you'd think they'd be happy to help a fellow enthusiast. We may not agree with each other but that shouldn't stop them from sharing information. Good luck in your inquiry, I'm rooting for you. Hopefully somebody is a little more helpful to you this time around.
Also, do you know the name of the veterinarian involved in the timbavat lion?
And do you know where we can see this lion and measurements?
(02-05-2016, 04:59 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Dr_Panthera, do any of those sources produce measurements? If so, could you please share the full citation?
Those are trophy records from Safari Club International, you can only access the full reports ( the hunter report including measurements and the taxidermist and reviewer reports including more measurements) if you hunt and submit trophy yourself.
I requested info and better access even if I had to pay for it without me having to shoot an animal but I got zero cooperation once they knew my research interests versus hunting interests.
If full records are obtained we will have thousands of measurements for lions, leopards, and pumas , hundreds for cheetahs and jaguars ( plus thousands for brown bears and black bears and hundreds for other bears).
I will contact them again and share any info I obtain
I was actually referring to osteological measurements as you stated papers cited this specimen. I doubt hunters bothered with those but since you said it is housed in a museum it caught my interest. In what form was this specimen referred to by those authors? Just its mass?
(02-05-2016, 04:59 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Dr_Panthera, do any of those sources produce measurements? If so, could you please share the full citation?
Those are trophy records from Safari Club International, you can only access the full reports ( the hunter report including measurements and the taxidermist and reviewer reports including more measurements) if you hunt and submit trophy yourself.
I requested info and better access even if I had to pay for it without me having to shoot an animal but I got zero cooperation once they knew my research interests versus hunting interests.
If full records are obtained we will have thousands of measurements for lions, leopards, and pumas , hundreds for cheetahs and jaguars ( plus thousands for brown bears and black bears and hundreds for other bears).
I will contact them again and share any info I obtain
I was actually referring to osteological measurements as you stated papers cited this specimen. I doubt hunters bothered with those but since you said it is housed in a museum it caught my interest. In what form was this specimen referred to by those authors? Just its mass?
Oh are you talking about the lion in the National Museum of Kenya ? Its catalogue number is NMK OM 7935
Petehans and Gnoske site it in their excellent paper " The Science of Man-Eating Among Lions with a Reconstruction of The National History of the Tsavo Lions" , on page 27 they talk about it, just mass 272 kg no skull measurements mentioned, post-prime age but with good teeth and skeleton (post death), and a serious cattle killer.This excellent paper is available from the Field Museum in Chicago which houses the two Tsavo man eaters and also the Mfuwe man eater.
Luke Hunter uses it as the biggest free-ranging lion verified by scientists, CITES also uses the same recoed, what is quite interesting about this lion is that he was an old lion, lived off cattle killing, and lived alone in mountainous habitat...so everything was going against him old age, no pride to rely on, poor prey base, and sub-optimal habitat.
I did get some numbers from hunters but I think they are exaggerated or inaccurate, up to 295 kg and a few over 275, I do not think that present day lions or tigers reach these sizes commonly, I presume these were gorged animals and they were semi-wild specimens raised for the canned hunting industry since the majority were in South Africa.
(02-05-2016, 04:59 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Dr_Panthera, do any of those sources produce measurements? If so, could you please share the full citation?
Those are trophy records from Safari Club International, you can only access the full reports ( the hunter report including measurements and the taxidermist and reviewer reports including more measurements) if you hunt and submit trophy yourself.
I requested info and better access even if I had to pay for it without me having to shoot an animal but I got zero cooperation once they knew my research interests versus hunting interests.
If full records are obtained we will have thousands of measurements for lions, leopards, and pumas , hundreds for cheetahs and jaguars ( plus thousands for brown bears and black bears and hundreds for other bears).
I will contact them again and share any info I obtain
If hunters really cared about "conservation" like so many claim you'd think they'd be happy to help a fellow enthusiast. We may not agree with each other but that shouldn't stop them from sharing information. Good luck in your inquiry, I'm rooting for you. Hopefully somebody is a little more helpful to you this time around.
Also, do you know the name of the veterinarian involved in the timbavat lion?
And do you know where we can see this lion and measurements?
I do not remember the veterinarian name.
I do not consider Timbavati lions to be free-ranging, they are bred to provide white lions and large males for trophy hunting in semi-wild conditions, therefore I do not take Timbavati records as ones for free-ranging lions, like Kruger lions they will be 400-500 LBs with animals over that definitely exceptional.
Great video I don't believe has been posted, nevertheless this male lion is taking FOREVER to kill this bull buffalo... not the best hunter lions have to offer lol. But still a cool video
HAHAHA omg guys, so sorry looked at this thread and realized way back I accidentally posted that buffalo hunt here instead of the predation thread. My bad.
Size of Okavango Delta Lions and Lionesses
