Size of Okavango Delta Lions and Lionesses

[Polar]

What about the 272 (or was it 280?) kg lion from Timbawati? Was it proven adjusted for stomach content or not?

Timbawati lions do come in larger sizes than the rest of P. leo nubica (East African Lion) subspecies, tying in with the Ngorongoro population. Reply

[Pckts]

(02-01-2016, 02:52 AM)Polar Wrote: What about the 272 (or was it 280?) kg lion from Timbawati? Was it proven adjusted for stomach content or not?

Timbawati lions do come in larger sizes than the rest of P. leo nubica (East African Lion) subspecies, tying in with the Ngorongoro population.

There were conflicting emails on whether it was weighed or not and adjusted or not, one of the women on site during the capture says the lion was estimated and another later says it was weighed. The fact that no measurements were actually given also makes it hard to know if it was weighed or not. Same with Koch's lion, its easy to say something is 280kg but the measurements don't lie. We are able to look at girth of limbs, neck and chest, body length and height and then we're able to see if its even possible to obtain that weight from the measurements given.

In regards to Timbawati lions, you would need verified weights to come to that conclusion and same with the crater population. Crater lions are heavyweight versions of serengetti lions who are said to be fairly averaged sized lions so is their extra mass enough to take them over the top and be the largest lions today?
I don't know, but the dr. said that the trophy hunting records show them to be normal sized but I am waiting for his response so we can take a look at these trophies records our selves. Reply

[Pckts]

(02-04-2016, 01:01 AM)LionKiss Wrote: here is a documentary about Lions in Okavango Delta

Great doc, interesting to note the larger paws and shaggier coat the lions have adapted for the cold water. Reply

[LionKiss]

(02-04-2016, 01:01 AM)LionKiss Wrote: here is a documentary about Lions in Okavango Delta

listen what the scientist say between 47:20-47:45 and I ask why don't they offer some help to the cubs,
cubs can't kill a man, they are very small, if there is a flood they can relocate them for a few weeks, if the lioness is away for several days they can give 2 lit. of milk a day,
in both cases the help is absolutely feasible.
but OK I forget "let the nature take care of itself" and when all of them have gone forever we will say "we didn't do enough" the problem is that we are supposed to have brain and use it too. Especially the second! Reply

[Dr Panthera]

(01-31-2016, 06:12 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-30-2016, 11:55 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:

(01-06-2016, 03:05 AM)Pckts Wrote: I certainly wouldn't put an entire pride of females at 170kg and 250kg for males, thats just to high. Maybe a couple of specimens here or there, but certainly not an entire pride. 

And Dereck and Beverly aren't biologist correct, just film makers. And to my knowledge they haven't been involved with any weighing of Lions so I would certainly take any estimate with a grain of salt, especially ones ranging that high.
I would take packers word in regards to Ngorngoro Lions being the largest, at least in terms of chest girth.
But like we see with Kaziranga Tigers, the marshy terrain seems to contribute to larger animals but still unproven, so who knows for sure.
Prey species and abundance will be the number 1 factor in my opinion and all animals need water, so that could play a factor as well.

Dereck Joubert is in fact a biologist and a geologist , he obtained his degree in a university in Johansburgh and worked with lions in Mala Mala and Kruger before studying them in Botswana since 1981, he discovered he could earn much more money becoming a film maker than publishing studies so he did so with his photographer wife Beverley and they  won 13 Emmys .He provides much of the scientific content of their books.
The pride in question is the Tsaro pride seven huge lionesses and two colossal males , the two other prides in Duba have members that are of average size and the size difference is evident in  the film and book " Relentless Enemies" in confrontation between the members of the prides: The Tsaro lions are much larger than their neighbours , then again, these are only nine lions who eat a cape buffalo every other day and work for it by swimming in deep cold water , they are super athletic but have never been measured.
I was fortunate to see lions in Ngorongoro Crater and they are massive, but the trophy records are similar to southern Africa.
Genetics remain the deciding factor for example the Okavango lions ( Delta and flooded marsh habitat) are not larger than the Kalahari lions ( Desert with poor prey base ).
The largest free ranging lion was a 272 kg post prime old male that lived in a mountain area near mount Kenya and killed livestock, his skeleton is at the Osteology department of the national museum of Kenya in Nairobi....(old age, East Africa, Poor Prey base, no access to buffalo,giraffe, nor elephants...yet he was the biggest ( Gnoske and Peterhans) , individual exceptions are always there but if I compare all the records I have seen I would put Hwange,Etosha, and Ngorongoro lions at the top

I am looking through images of relentless enemies but I'm unable to find the comparison image of the lions in question, if you have access to it could you show me? 

Also, do you have any access to the trophy records for the crater? I'd love to see those since they'd be the only measurements from the crater that I have seen.

In regards to the 272kg lion, I assume you're talking about kochs?
That lion has a bit of controversy since he has contradictory emails on whether the lion was adjusted or not as well as an email where he was unaware of the record it self. To my knowledge the largest lion according to the Kenya wildlife service was 230kg from Kenya.
But it's possible for a lion to reach that size I'm sure and I tend to believe the record but it also shows the range from lion to lion inside of a specific place since there are many Kenya lions who never reached close to that size. Which is what I'm saying about trying to say a single population having all Giants, like you said it's about genetics. Maybe a couple of individuals here and there will be "freak specimens" but an entire population being significantly larger than another is not something I have seen from weights verified thus far. And comparing one individual to another is also tough if we don't know what either cat weighs.

No, not Koch, the 272 kg lion skeleton is in the collection of the National Museum of Kenya in Nairobi in their osteology department, it is mentioned in several sources ( Gnoske, Peterhans,Patterson, and most recently Luke Hunter). He was a freak in the sense that he was old, lived of killing goats and cows, lived in a mountainous habitat, and was not part of a pride ..yet he attained a size larger that individuals who had everything going for them.
I do not believe in a "population of giants" for lions, for that to happen a population of large individuals need to be isolated from other lions for that larger gene to be concentrated generation after generation, gene flow of lions through close and connective habitats is still happening creating more uniformity, of course small samples of a few individual can suggest bigger individuals in Duba and Ngorongoro and smaller ones in Cameroon and India..but we are talking small numbers that are statistically insignificant.
In the lion strongholds in eastern and southern Africa there is good connectivity and gene flow unlike the fragmented and isolated pockets in West Africa and in the Gir area in India.
There are larger lions and smaller ones everywhere, big mammals vary in size to adapt to their different habitats.
The trophy records are usually for the skulls adding the greatest length and the greatest width Reply

[Pckts]

I firmly believe in the same.
Every area I have seen always has a large individual and a small one and everything in between. 

Crazy info about the lion, we don't know who actually weighed the lion do we?

Interesting that they would use skulls to determine records since the correlation between skull size and mass isn't as accurate as body length.
They use the same scoring system for bears as well, correct? Reply

[Dr Panthera]

(02-05-2016, 02:03 AM)Pckts Wrote: I firmly believe in the same.
Every area I have seen always has a large individual and a small one and everything in between. 

Crazy info about the lion, we don't know who actually weighed the lion do we?

Interesting that they would use skulls to determine records since the correlation between skull size and mass isn't as accurate as body length.
They use the same scoring system for bears as well, correct?

I want to say Bruce Patterson of the Chicago Field Museum but I am not 100% sure, the skeleton is long and robust and the NKM is worth a visit if you go to Nairobi not just for that specimen but for all the natural wonders of Kenya.
Hunters use that skull measurement for all carnivores.

A clarification: The Ngorongoro Crater is a protected area so no hunter has hunted lions for a long time, the 28 10/16'' records are from colonial times so I am reluctant to consider them, the closest places in northern Tanzania to the Crater/Serengeti protected areas show current measurements in the range of 27 8/16'' similar to records from the Okavango and Kalahari.
There are several 28" plus readings from Timbavati South Africa, but South African records may include animals from Canned Hunting versus purely free-ranging animals, when I request clarification from the hunters they usually decline when they know my interest in conserving cats versus shooting them.

For comparison sake I will note the largest other cats trophy measures were as follows:
Bengal Tiger Uttar Pradesh 1968     25 6/16''
Indochinese Tiger Vietnam 1658     21 3/16''
Sumatran Tiger Indonesia 1968       22 4/16'' All tigers in the world are now protected from "sport hunting"
Jaguar Chaco-Paraguay                  20 12/16''
Leopard Okavango                         19  11/16''
Puma Alberta Canada                     16 1/16''
Puma Las Pampas Argentina            16 3/16''
Cheetah Namibia                            14 13/16'' Reply

[Pckts]

Nice info, there are actually a few tiger skulls that would score higher than 25 but I'm not sure the criteria needed to validate them. There's a 15.25" skull that is 11"+ wide that I know of but @GrizzlyClaws knows far better than I. Reply

[tigerluver]

@Dr_Panthera, do any of those sources produce measurements? If so, could you please share the full citation? Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

Currently, there might still have some gene flow between the East African lions and the eastern group of the South African lions, but the western group of the South African lions does look like being genetically isolated from other groups as well.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(02-05-2016, 03:31 AM)Pckts Wrote: Nice info, there are actually a few tiger skulls that would score higher than 25 but I'm not sure the criteria needed to validate them. There's a 15.25" skull that is 11"+ wide that I know of but @GrizzlyClaws knows far better than I.

I am not extremely familiar about the authentic records of the wild tiger skull, but I think @GuateGojira or @tigerluver are the best candidates to provide the best answer. Reply

[tigerluver]

I'm more of an appendicular morphology guy but I think Guate covered all bases in the first post of the King of the Tiger for skull size. Reply

[LionKiss]

(02-05-2016, 07:19 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Currently, there might still have some gene flow between the East African lions and the eastern group of the South African lions, but the western group of the South African lions does look like being genetically isolated from other groups as well.

*This image is copyright of its original author

could you post a higher resolution copy of this photo? is there a direct link to this photo? Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(02-05-2016, 01:24 PM)LionKiss Wrote:

(02-05-2016, 07:19 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Currently, there might still have some gene flow between the East African lions and the eastern group of the South African lions, but the western group of the South African lions does look like being genetically isolated from other groups as well.

*This image is copyright of its original author

could you post a higher resolution copy of this photo? is there a direct  link to this photo?

Here is the link, but not sure about the higher resolution one.

http://americangeo.org/news-and-information/map-of-the-week-current-versus-historic-range-of-the-african-lion/ Reply

[Dr Panthera]

(02-05-2016, 03:31 AM)Pckts Wrote: Nice info, there are actually a few tiger skulls that would score higher than 25 but I'm not sure the criteria needed to validate them. There's a 15.25" skull that is 11"+ wide that I know of but @GrizzlyClaws knows far better than I.

Of course there are.
It is just that hunting tiger for sport has been banned since the early 70's and records started in the 50's so few were reported there for tigers whereas they continued for the other big cats. Reply