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Size comparisons
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 (07-13-2019, 11:24 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-13-2019, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying. Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few. And certain S. and E. African Leopards as well. Btw I forgot to ask, which photographer did you get those Tanzania Leopard images from, they seem much harder to find for some reason.  (07-13-2019, 11:24 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-13-2019, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying. Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few. Heh, it was coming, wasn´t it?  But yes, you have some good points why to think so, but it has seemed to be less clear overall situation than it is, when we compare for instance Pantanal jaguars to some other population if we exclude Llanos. Have you got yet anything more from that person... was the name Jo, from panthera.org? it would be really interesting if she has something more to say, you got one reply from her in the past, wasn´t it so?
 (07-13-2019, 11:34 PM)Pckts Wrote:(07-13-2019, 11:24 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-13-2019, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying. Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few. Yeah definitely those leopards in Kenya from the Aberdare for example. The photographer is Mike Fell. @Shadow Yes, I got in touch with her thanks to the mods of Zooniverse. I could PM her again but I'm gonna have to ask something serious then. (07-14-2019, 12:38 AM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-14-2019, 12:01 AM)Shadow Wrote:(07-13-2019, 11:24 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-13-2019, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying. Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few. Didn´t she tell, that she would discuss with others about sizes of rainforest leopards with others, colleagues? It would be interesting to hear if they have had discussions and what kind of estimations maybe? And if there are, have they compared to other leopard populations? Maybe we wouldn´t get 100% certainty, but thoughts of biologists and zoologists are always interesting. (07-14-2019, 12:42 AM)Shadow Wrote:(07-14-2019, 12:38 AM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-14-2019, 12:01 AM)Shadow Wrote:(07-13-2019, 11:24 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-13-2019, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying. Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few. I've spoken to her and another I believe, I cant find them in my emails atm, but neither has much experience outside of the Congo basin. I even spoke with the gentleman who set up the mirror traps and he isn't aware of measurements or info from other african leopards nor has he been involved in any weight or captures, in fact I'm not sure exactly what experience he has outside of being a photographer. We have to be careful with a lot of these researchers, make sure their experience is relevant to the discussion at hand. It's why using hunters sometimes is a better option when data is limited because they go where the largest cats are unfortunately but they know via experience. But even they should be taken with a grain of salt as we all know. Let's just look at the criteria required before we got to an acceptable conclusion on Pantanal Jags. Needed first hand accounts, needed email confirmation from people who've seen and researched Jags from Los llanos and pantanal then needed all weights to be verified. Let's compare it to Leopards... Weights from the Congo basin showing normal range....not enough proof Camera trap photos from a mirror.... proof Skull measurements = largest leopards Skull measurements equal to the largest skulls showing cats under 100kg=not enough Researchers with no experience in weighing cats from anywhere, let alone Congo=conclusive Hunters with weights and first hand measures from all over Africa including Central=Not enough Pug Mark's measurements equal to other parts of Africa=not proof Etc. If we're to play this game then let's play by the same rules, if not let's make sure to acknowledge that these are estimates and not proven nor should any conclusive statements be made until the criteria we've set forth is reached. (07-14-2019, 01:16 AM)Pckts Wrote:(07-14-2019, 12:42 AM)Shadow Wrote:(07-14-2019, 12:38 AM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-14-2019, 12:01 AM)Shadow Wrote:(07-13-2019, 11:24 PM)Luipaard Wrote:(07-13-2019, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying. Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few. When there isn´t too much information, then new information should be welcome. Just because some researcher isn´t expert in certain issue, it doesn´t mean, that he/she couldn´t have contacts to right people and by asking able to get very good information/sources. If there is someone in panthera.org, who is willing to reply and help in gathering information, that opportunity should be used, imo. It can be asked, when she replies, that is information his/her personal opinion or more. And based on what. It doesn´t cost anything to ask and then see, what reply looks like. That photographer (Xavier something) isn´t biologist/zoologist, but he obviously has discussions with experts time to time as well as with locals. What comes to size comparisons between leopard subspecies and/or weight estimations, I don´t think that he can help really. His focus seems to be more in observing how animals behave. He should put there beside mirrors on ground some 1m x 1m object to help estimate sizes of animals visiting mirrors though. But what comes to photos and videos, for me those mean quite little if/when there is nothing to what compare. And what comes to one photo from Congo and another from India for instance, taken from different leopards. I see those useless in this kind of discussion. People can see only if some leopard looks robust or not and that´s it really. Same as with all animals and I think, that many posters have said this same. Anyway I think, that a lot of same information has been circling around and around and it would be good time to try to dig out something new for a change. I see it like this: Are there big leopards in Central Africa? Yes, for sure. Are they exceptional compared to other parts of Africa? Difficult to say, I haven´t seen so far enough to make that conclusion. This is how I see it. Many good points for and against, but simply not enough information, which could be easily compared. Skull sizes naturally is one indicator, if differences are significant. And I know, that tables about those have been shared, but I haven´t really payed attention lately. One problem is, that discussion/debate has been here and there all over different leopard threads and size comparison thread making it painful to follow really. If something like that is wanted to discuss seriously, it really should be done in one thread and focus to make clear postings. What is the claim and what things back up that claim and what then again are against. But when discussion/debate spreads like avalanche to here and there.... nightmare, soon no-one remembers what was said and where and when. And when it happens, most people don´t care anymore.
@Shadow I am to blame for discussing this subject on various threads ('Size comparisons', 'Impressive females', 'Persian leopard', ...). It's just that this is such an interesting subject. We just discovered that the male jaguar weighing 158 kg was incorrect just becouse of discussing about it.
I will try to get in touch with Jo Taylor once again. Like you said, it's worth the shot. I've been digging deep into these particular leopards and when looking at videos, camera trap photos, skull measurements... I come to the conclusion that there is many evidence of how big and impressive these leopards can get which beyond most people realize. Not so long ago, I read something about a skull of an old male leopard killed in the North Eastern DR Congo in the 1940s. This skull (KBIN 8640) is held in the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences. The skull has a condylobasal length of 264mm and a zygomatic width of 186mm. Its greatest length isn't stated as the occipital crest was probably damaged but would've easily been in the 290-300mm range. In any case the condylobasal length can be considered at least as good a measure of overall skull size. For comparison, the heaviest male jaguar weighed for which skull measurements are available (there are several) was a male from the Venezuelan Llanos documented by Hoogenstein and Mondolfi which weighed 121kg (empty stomach) with a condylobasal skull length of 272mm and a zygomatic width of 185mm. Admittedly, this huge jaguar had a relatively narrow skull for its species I know we can't directly compare skulls of both species but I say it's very impressive that a leopard can have a skull comparable in dimensions to large individual male jaguars from Pantanal and Llanos. To put things in perspective, Indian or African savanna leopards struggle to exceed the 250mm (in total length) mark. This particular specimen is currently the largest leopard when looking at his measurements (brace yourself, for I have shared this list many times before): (Largest skulls from scientific sources)  *This image is copyright of its original author As you can see, only 3 males were not from either Iran or Central Africa but from Uganda, Egypt and Sudan. (07-14-2019, 07:05 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @Shadow I am to blame for discussing this subject on various threads ('Size comparisons', 'Impressive females', 'Persian leopard', ...). It's just that this is such an interesting subject. We just discovered that the male jaguar weighing 158 kg was incorrect just becouse of discussing about it. Well, we have time here, don´t we. So naturally it´s possible to take a bit time and focus certain information to one thread. When people are interested to find out, where biggst tigers, lions and jaguars can be found, it is obvious, that there is same kind of interest what comes to leopards. Many discussions go to wrong direction in the beginning, when "too strong statement" happens. You understand without a doubt, that when you write "Central-African leopards are the biggest there is" it can receive different kind of reaction than if you write "I have found information, which indicates, that Central-African leopards might be biggest subspecies". I agree, that you have good points to keep that discussion alive. Still same time remembering, that current information can be enough to justify that hypothesis, but maybe not to prove it 100%. When accepting it, that there are grey areas, then it is also easier to take criticism, when not hanging yourself too early to too strong statements. You and @Pckts have a lot of good information about leopards, much more than I have for instance at least what comes to sizes. It would be nice to see if some energy, what now is wasted to debate same things over and over would be used to find something new if possible. As you said now, that you try to do. Maybe after a little time one good posting with main arguments favoring your thoughts. Summary of main points, what you have so far found out. You have provided many good postings and even though criticism has been there too, that is what it is. The stronger statement you make, more criticism you have to be ready to take But that doesn´t mean, that your postings wouldn´be appreciated same time.
There are so many skulls with correlations that make no sense. The top skull of course is only an estimate so it needs to be removed from any claim.
Next is the fact that comparing a Leopard and Jaguar skulls to eachother is wrong since both show completely different correlations. Also, no skull shown is extraordinary when compared to an amazonian jag and no jag with equal skull measurements has exceeded 100kg and we all know Jags pack far more mass into their frame. The highest score on this limited list is a 19, I've already shown Leopards with scores 19 or above and yet none have exceeded 90kgs. Of course the skulls with larger scores have come from E. OR S. Africa as well and C. Africa too. The fact is that Leopards have been weighed from all over c. And e. Africa, none have exceeded the 90kg category. With more specific measurements from the Congo basin showing weights smaller than 80kg. Imagine he was on the opposite side, like with los llanos Jags. One study shows a 5kg difference and that somehow is conclusive that they are larger than Pantanal Jags yet with measurements of Congo basin leopards showing none exceeding the 80kg and that is meaningless? Again this is my point, let's play by the same rules. Jaguars with large skulls have weighed less than Jags with smaller skulls, what does that mean? The same with leopards, but since that doesnt fit into his argument it's not used, I'll be happy to go through comparable skull and body dimensions again when I'm back but I feel as though it's just spinning my wheels at this point. Since there is no new info to present there really is no more debate to be had. We've both made our points and neither is willing to back down from them. (07-14-2019, 10:59 PM)Pckts Wrote: There are so many skulls with correlations that make no sense. The top skull of course is only an estimate so it needs to be removed from any claim. Aside from how big the mysterious black Barbary leopard or Atlas black panther was (https://archive.org/stream/bookoflion191...ch/panther), the heaviest record that I have from Africa was 96 kg (212 pounds) for a Southwest African leopard, and even the author of this book noted other records of leopards surpassing 200 lbs (90.7 kg), but I don't know the measurements of their skulls (https://books.google.com/books?id=E4JyZg...ht&f=false). A captive leopard and jaguar in London: https://books.google.com/books?id=T37sFC...&q&f=false As for the Sri Lankan leopard, Anthonis mentioned this: http://www.sundaytimes.lk/970921/plus15.html "The largest known leopard shot in Sri Lanka is claimed by a planter now residing in Australia, in the 1950s in Namal Oya in the Gal Oya Valley. Length 8ft 8inches. Height 30 inches (2½ ft). Weight 250 lbs (110 kg). (Trevor Labrooy, Jungle Lure)." Sri Lankan leopard at Yala National Park: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhot..._Park.html  *This image is copyright of its original author
90 kgs-100kg is the max mark for leopards regardless of the location.
Does that mean they cant get larger than that, of course not. I firmly believe Leopards can get 110kgs + but it's the same as a 160kg Jag. If we only use verified weights, then 90kg category is the max range and 150kg is the max range for Jags. But I dont believe in max weights, like humans, animals come in many shapes and sizes and far more haven't been weighed than have. In regards to the sri lankan leopard claim, I put it in the same category as the 115kg leopard that attacked the farmer or the 110kg 3 legged Persian. Just like the hunter records of 150+kg Jaguar weights or 300kg Tiger or Lion weights. Are they fake, who knows but extraordinary sizes are found throughout all cat species from all over.
I said that I didn't compare leopard skulls and jaguars directly becouse of obvious reasons. We have had this discussion before which is why I said that the leopard of skull KBIN 8640 is comparable in dimensions to large individual male jaguars from Pantanal and Llanos. I find it remarkable since jaguars are known to have massive, robust skulls.
We can however, compare skulls of different leopard subspecies. As you can see in the list I shared, both Central African and Persian leopards from Iran dominate the list. You say Central African leopards weigh smaller than 80kg, yet there are weight measurements of Persian leopards who are in the 80+kg weight class  *This image is copyright of its original author 6 males weighed more than 80 kg (excluding the infamous 115 kg male) And here 2 males were weighed; 66 kg and 86 kg  *This image is copyright of its original author The reason why I'm sharing this is becouse Central African leopards have even bigger skulls than Persian leopards. How would the males weigh below 80 kg? Quote:Also, no skull shown is extraordinary when compared to an amazonian jag and no jag with equal skull measurements has exceeded 100kg and we all know Jags pack far more mass into their frame. Well when looking at average skull measurements, yeah no Amazon jaguar or leopard will exceed 100 kg. But when looking at averages, they're close in terms of measurements:
Quote:"The average skull length of 7 mature male leopards from North Eastern Congo (DRC) was 261mm including two at 279mm and 282mm. Even more impressive a sample of 3 male leopard skulls from the coast of Gabon had an average length of 274mm with the largest at 282mm. While the Gabon sample is small and thus may not be reflective of the true average it is impressive nonetheless that such large skulls are present despite a very limited sample. For comparison the average skull length of 17 adult male jaguars from Venezuela was 282.2mm and 12 from the Mato Grasso area of Brazil averaged 282mm. On the other hand, the East African plains leopard or the Southern African leopard which we are used to seeing have an average skull length of about 230mm and only exceptional males reach 260mm." I can see larger Central African leopards exceed 100 kg to be honest Just look at this male, he's certainly big. How's he not going to weigh over 90 kg? I've seen many leopards like the famous Camp Pan male, Vin Diesel, Anderson, Tingana, Double Crossing male, ... the list goes on. All big males but literally none of them looks as big and robust as this male from Gabon:  *This image is copyright of its original author Just look at how massive his skull is
And yet the confirmed weights of Persian leopards from the Iran IG page says their weights are between 60-80kg.
You also dont know which weight correlates with which skull size. A persian leopard also has bergmans rule on their side while Congo basin leopards have the opposite rule of insular dwarfism against them, although I dont think it applies to mid sized carnivores. And you say "you've seen" but the fact is that you haven't seen any of them. A camera trap photo from ground level 2 meters away isn't comparable to shots from jeeps above eye level from much further away. Not to mention the fact that to even get them in the shot, they need to bait them first and we all know what baiting a cat does, right?  *This image is copyright of its original author And in regards to Jaguar skulls, @peter has already mentioned the fact that they are much heavier in comparison not to mention wider as well. And once more, no correlation between the two different specimens is found comparable.
Well @peter also said:
Quote:Although I didn't see a lot of skulls from Sri Lanka, India, Iran and central parts of Africa, I did notice that skulls of males shot in central parts of Africa had a robust mandibula, large and robust teeth and a flattish profile. They also were (relatively) heavier than skulls from Asia. In skulls of African leopards, the profile is less vaulted than in many Asian leopards. My guess is African leopards could have relatively larger skulls, but I need more time to get to a conclusion. Quote:And you say "you've seen" but the fact is that you haven't seen any of them. A camera trap photo from ground level 2 meters away isn't comparable to shots from jeeps above eye level from much further away.Do you really have to see them in real life to notice the difference? Seems like you don't want to compare this particular male with the other males I listed. Just look at his head, no other male rivals that. Not even the so called biggest leopards Vin Diesel or Camp Pan even though they were very impressive males. I suppose you which males I'm talking about? If so, just try to compare them and you should come to the conclusion that this particular male is even bigger than them. Small detail: although not official, Vin Diesel was reported to weigh 97kg
Why not highlight the rest of Peter's quote?
We're not talking about Asian Leopards, we're talking about Africans, correct? Not to mention, what does that have to do with Jaguar Skulls being heavier and wider? I don't wan't to talk about which male? None of the males I've seen exceed males from other parts of Africa, I'm pretty sure I've spoken about that numerous times. I've also shown Leopards with exceeding measurements of the Congo Basin Skulls aswell, do you wish to talk about them? And most important statement on the Vin Diesal male "not official" although that would would only confirm my statement. |
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