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Size comparisons
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 Quote:I suggest you look up Peter Croshaw *sp* Why would I do that? Fonseco himself stated this: "He studies the interaction between jaguars and human populations and says that in the Pantanal, the jaguars reach 100 kilos. But the largest are in the Venezuelan cerrado. The biggest ever recorded was 140 KG, according to him." Quote:skull sizes are larger The chart proves otherwise; they overlap in size. Yet their average weight is a little bit higher; 104.5 kg vs 99.5 kg Dated study or not. (which is ironic since you're the one who constantly focuses on that one study of Sri Lankan leopards where 11 males averaged 56kg. You claimed that Sri Lankans are not bigger than Indian or African leopards based on that one study). Here's something interesting aswell regarding skull sizes (from The Jaguar, by Mondolfi and Hoojesteijn): "Cranial measurements of seventeen adult male jaguars from Venezuela show that the average greatest length of skull (282.2 mm) is equal to the average (282 mm) of twelve males belonging to the southern race P.onca palustris (Pantanal jaguar)." "Moreover the exceptionally big skull from Caño Agua Verde, State of Gúarico had a greatest skull length of 312.5 mm, slightly larger than the length (302 mm) of a large specimen of P.onca milleri (P.onca palustris)." As far as I know, there's no scientific prove that Pantanal jaguars are larger than Venezuelan jaguars. So far it's been proven that the jaguars from Llanos average a little bit heavier. So you have the experts from Pantanal claming that Pantanal jaguars are bigger vs scientific studies and Biologist Rogério Fonseca claiming otherwise.   *This image is copyright of its original author This is the Southern pantanal, not the north where the largest Jaguar population, sizes and prey density occurs.  *This image is copyright of its original author Venezuala Jags  *This image is copyright of its original author Notice the study her took place in Paraguay, again not nearly the jaguar or prey density compared to the meeting of the rivers park in northern pantanal, Brazil which is of course where the largest Jaguars live, hence Adriano being 158kg and not even the largest cat. Fonseco isn't qualified to make that claim. Rafeal, Peter Croshaw *sp*, Paulo and Fernando Torta will all say the same. You seem to be denying the fact that no Jaguar has ever exceeded 158kg mark from the pantanal which immediately proves Fonseco wrong. Let alone this  *This image is copyright of its original author And all the other hunting weights I've posted which have surpassed 140kg as well. Again, there is no debate. Nothing in Los Llanos will contribute to a larger cat than Jaguars in the Pantanal. They certainly have overlapped with southern and other parts of the pantanal but in northern pantanal, brazil in the meeting of the water park *where 3 rivers meet* and the caiman density is highest along with the jaguar density the sizes are unmatched. At this time, maybe when Venezuela didnt have human pressure they could of been their equals. Skull size has also been matched and surpassed as well  *This image is copyright of its original author And these were from all over Mato Grasso and Paraguay river, none from the 70km hub of the meetings of the 3 rivers where the largest Jags and best prey base live. This isn't a new debate and @epaiva has already explained the same thing I am doing but much earlier on.  *This image is copyright of its original author https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...nca?page=5 Last is your comment about Sri Lankan leopards, I'm curious, are you comparing the hunting history of Jaguars and Caiman to Sri Lankan Leopards? 
@
As for the jaguars, I came across this: https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._evolution "Body size of today’s jaguars is highly variable; the largest are found in the Brazilian Pantanal and Venezuelan Llanos (mean male body mass >100kg). The smallest jaguars live in Central America (~56kg)." Venezuelan jaguar at Los Llanos: https://www.pinterest.es/pin/535506211933874521/  *This image is copyright of its original author As for the tigers, in captivity and overall, the Siberian tiger is the largest tiger, with an overweight captive Amur tiger named 'Jaipur' having had a weight of 465 kg (1,025 lbs: https://books.google.com/books?id=uIqtQgAACAAJ&dq). In the wild however, the Bengal tiger outweighs the Siberian tiger on average and on record, with the calculated average weights (aside from the issue of errors made in them) of wild males being 176.4 kg (388.9 lbs) for the Amur tiger (http://fishowls.com/Slaght%20et%20al%202005.pdf), and 196 kg (432.1 lbs) for the Bengal tiger (https://www.scribd.com/document/55287778...Tiger-2015), and the biggest wild tiger not being a Siberian tiger with an unconfirmed weight of 384 kg (847 lbs: https://books.google.com/books?id=uIqtQgAACAAJ&dq), but a Bengal tiger that weighed 388.7 kg (857 lbs) after eating a buffalo calf (https://archive.is/20130202094033/http:/...nov95.html, https://books.google.com/books?id=uIqtQgAACAAJ&dq). Jaipur the obese, captive Amur tiger: http://www.ligerworld.com/biggest-tiger-...orded.html  *This image is copyright of its original author Huge wild Bengal tiger at Kaziranga National Park, northeast India:  *This image is copyright of its original author
My conclusion from this latest discussion is, that Los Llanos and Pantanal jaguar populations are a close call, what comes to potential sizes of them. So it´s no surprise if at some point some study has given bigger mean weight for Los Llanos jaguars. Then again knowing how close call it is, it´s just logical to think, that when Pantanal jaguars have gotten better protection from humans lately and prey animal populations have been growing to abundant, that their average weights have grown too and more big individuals are able to live there.
When Cat Specialist group gives weight range for Jaguars 36-148 kg (I think, that it should be 158, but there is a typo) and Panthera.org gives 36-158 kg. That alone should ring a bell, if there is an older study giving maximum weight 140 kg. That obviously has been maximum weight at certain time known to Fonseca. If asked today, he could give a new answer based on latest reliable information, I am not sure from which year that 140 kg is? Then when looking at this: "Forexample, Hoogesteijn and Mondolfi(1996) found that floodplain jaguars were significantly larger [bodymass:Llanos = 104.5kg (males), 66.9kg (females) and Pantanal = 99.5kg (males), 76.7kg (females)]" This information from year 1996(!) gives average weight difference for males 5 kg favoring Llanos, but 9,8 kg difference for females favoring Pantanal. Interesting results and actually rising up more questions maybe than giving answers. But catching these animals for weighing is always challenging, I think. @epaiva could maybe tell more about it because he is one of those people, who do field weighings to wild animals in Venezuela (and other countries too?). So he is, as far as I know, one of the best (if not the best) posters here to tell a bit more about challenges involving those situations. Also we are lucky in it, that Hoogesteijn is still working with jaguars, and as some might have noticed, started his studies/work in Venezuela, where he has born. And is now working in Pantanal area. And is friend of @epaiva . So we could, if @epaiva dares to ask from him, get some update to his conclusions. Over 20 years is long time knowing how fast environment has changed in many places. But what comes to Fontana and his claim about 140 kg as maximum, what is the source for that, could you share a link to it @ And one last thing from me. When all skull measurements, which I have seen in this latest discussion have favored Pantanal jaguars even though slightly, my personal conclusion is that they most probably should be on average at least same as Llanos population in any similar circumstances. So knowing, that currently Pantanal jaguars have better environment to live in, it´s logical to think, that they should be nowadays bigger on average too. It´s good to make a timeline, when trying to find out information. Study x 1996, study y 2002, article where valid biologist confirms new record weight 20??.... Then looking at changes in some areas during that time and thinking/finding information what kind of impacts those changes have had or have as we speak to wildlife. In that way it is possible to get quite good idea about it, what is going on. (07-12-2019, 03:04 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: @ This study was a good find: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220033215_Jaguar_conservation_in_Venezuela_against_the_backdrop_of_current_knowledge_on_its_biology_and_evolution When looking closer, it still looks like, that they also have used that study from 1996 what comes to sizes of Llanos and Pantanal jaguars. I think, that they rounded a bit numbers in summary in the part, which you quoted. (Body size of today’s jaguars is highly variable; the largest are found in the Brazilian Pantanal and Venezuelan Llanos (mean male body mass >100kg). The smallest jaguars live in Central America (~56kg).) Later in study situation is explained with more detailed information: "The body size of jaguars is highly variable, both at the continental and local levels, and there is sexual dimorphism in body size, females being 10-20% smaller than males. Females from western Brazil and from Central America are the smallest, while jaguars from Paraguay and Pantanal are believed to be the largest (Seymour, 1989; Hoogesteijn and Mondolfi, 1996) Hoogesteijn and Mondolfi (1996) analyzed body mass and skull measures of several jaguars from the Venezuelan Llanos, the Brazilian Pantanal, the Amazon basin and Central America. The largest jaguars were from the Llanos (mean body mass for males of 104.5kg and for females of 66.9kg) and the Pantanal (99.5 and 76.7kg, respectively). Skull measures were slightly higher for Pantanal males and significantly higher for Pantanal females. The smallest jaguars were those from Central America (56.1 and 41.4kg in males and females,respectively) while those from the Amazon were intermediate (83.6kg for males, no data for females)." It is interesting to see, that "several jaguars". That can mean quite small sample size actually. Anyway it is easy to see why in summary they rounded male Pantanal and Llanos jaguars to same category >100kg. Especially, when skull sizes then again favor Pantanal jaguars all the way more or less. What is situation today is then another thing. Anyway this is a good example, study is published 2011, but it´s based partially to information from 1996 and in some things even older studies. So in some issues it gives new information, in some it repeats older. What comes to Adriano and 158 kg, he was weighed 2013-2014? @Pckts you maybe have information for that. If so, then this is a good example about importance to make a timeline when looking at information and making conclusions about it, that why some study tells what it tells. Naturally a study from 2011 can´t have included information, which has been confirmed afterwards.
@Pckts
Quote:You seem to be denying the fact that no Jaguar has ever exceeded 158kg mark from the pantanal which immediately proves Fonseco wrong. Where have I denied that? I have no problem with a male called Adriano weighing at 158 kg? All I'm saying is that Venezualan jaguars are bigger since their average weight is higher. So unless you can prove me otherwise, I will still believe that. @Shadow Quote:But what comes to Fontana and his claim about 140 kg as maximum, what is the source for that, could you share a link to it @ I'm not really focusing on the 140 kg maximum claim to be honest. It was just to show you that Fontana also states that Venezuelan jaguars are the largest ones. I got more information of said book The Jaguar, by Mondolfi and Hoojesteijn: "A very large male killed at Cordereño, 15 km North of Suripa, State of Barinas, reportedly weighed 145 kg (P. Gonzales Vera, pers. comm.). Another exceptionally large male killed in 1959 at El Rosero, State of Apure, weighed 148 kg (I. Velutini, 1978). F. I. Romero (pers. comm.) weighed several of the 84 adult males he had killed and gave the following range of weights: 90-110 kg for adult males and 60-70 kg for adult females. Only one of these jaguars, an adult male, weighed 120 kg. A very large individual killed at La Candelaria Ranch, State of Barinas by M. Franco, weighed 149 kg. Both of these animals had their stomachs full of spectacled caiman remains" Oh and @Pckts , speaking of this 148 kg jaguar:  *This image is copyright of its original author I knew a person who actually contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn regarding this jaguar:  *This image is copyright of its original author According to him the stomach content of this specimen at the time of weighing can be estimated at 10-15kg. Therefore the empty stomach weight was likely in the 133-138kg range (more or less about 300lb).
Average weight from one study in not even the same location?
Yet still smaller in skull size, body size, maximum weights and averages in the meeting of the 3 rivers. Most jaguars caught are baited, not sure what your point is. There's also videos of empty Jags weighing 315lbs or 142kg captured by snare in the pantanal As you can see, there is no denying facts. The Pantanal Jaguar is the largest jag on earth at this point in time. Now onto what Panthera actually does and did in the panatanal. Panthera is there to find a suitable corridor, they purchased a massive plot of land away from the main area and captured cats on their property to collar and see what corridor they are using. Because the Pantanal Jaguars are such a mystery, they needed to research it. Now what makes them a mystery? Young males when the disperse from the pantanal 1, let's call it, are rarely every seen back in the Pantanal 1 again. Infact that is what makes Marley so rare is because he's one of the few youngsters who stayed and was able to force his own territory with other older and larger males. The males that come in Pantanal 1 usually are 7-8 year old prime males and arent known to the area, no one even knows exactly where they come from. But what they do is build up size and experience then they come in and take over, they know that they cannot enter the best habitat on earth for Jaguars without being at their strongest. Why is it the best place on earth? Simple, there are the most females there and prey density is at its highest. Hence why the competition is so intense. Paulo and Paul are by far the most knowledgeable researchers there, they are the ones who Panthera, NGO, BBC etc use when they need ID info, behavioral info or data analysis. Paul and Paulo are the ones in charge for the entire Jaguar individual data base there, no one else. Paulo would never say this himself but it's true. They do this even with death threats commonly occurring, I'll get into more later. In regards to getting weights, like I said already, Paulo works with Fernando who is in charge of weighing and measuring all the cats of the pantanal, I should have no issue getting them once I'm back in the states. Paulo will also join this forum most likely and he'll be happy to educate anyone who wishes to learn. I'm sorry to sound so matter of fact here but there really is no debate. Using a random study from 20+ years ago in different locations than the actual breeding ground of the largest Jags on earth is not correct when trying to compare them. I'm sorry but sitting behind a keyboard trying to selectively pick data to make a false claim vs being there, learning from the people who have researched them for 30 years and have done so all over Latin America, including Venezuela is wrong. I mean be honest, what did you actually know about the Pantanal before this discussion happened? I'm sure you thought like all of us that the Pantanal was the same and every jag from the pantanal should be categorized as the same. But the pantanal stretches through countries, it's as large if not larger than the serengeti and contains 3 completely different biomes. I doubt any of us realized that Caiman pelts were killed and collected by the millions and Jaguars were hunted till almost extinction along side them. I will go into much more detail on the Pantanal and the immense struggles it faced and is facing now when I'm back in the states and able to post my photos and I'm sure Paulo will be happy to chime in when he's back from the Amazon and educate in a manner I could never even dream of. It's simple, ask any researcher I've named about which Jaguars are the largest on earth, I guarantee they'll tell you the same. Since you like using Rafeal, you should ask him or have @epaiva if he approves but stop trying to somehow think that a 5kg average difference based off Jags from competlely different areas 20 plus years ago somehow represent the Jags found in the Pantanal 1 or meeting of the 3 rivers. Quote:I'm sorry but sitting behind a keyboard trying to selectively pick data to make a false claim vs being there, learning from the people who have researched them for 30 years and have done so all over Latin America, including Venezuela is wrong. Not the first time you're using the "I've been there" argument. I am not surprised... Quote:I'm sorry to sound so matter of fact here but there really is no debate. Using a random study from 20+ years ago in different locations than the actual breeding ground of the largest Jags on earth is not correct when trying to compare them. Do you really think there's any surprise that once they started measuring Jags in the Pantanal 1 location you have weights of 158kg, 148kg, 142kg and so on? Then show me a recent study? So far these are the facts: Venezuelan males average 104.5 kg, Pantanal males 99.5 kg. Look I'm not trying to win this discussion but these are the facts? Who knows the jaguars in Llanos have grown bigger aswell? There's no recent study to actually proof Pantanal jaguars are larger? Only speculation Quote:I mean be honest, what did you actually know about the Pantanal before this discussion happened? Not much. I know it's part of Paraguay ect and that it's comparable to the African rainforest although bigger. It's not that I just shout things without knowing anything if that's what you mean... I just said jaguars from Llanos are bigger based on scientific sources but you're denying that without any scientific evidence. Only speculation. Quote:It's simple, ask any researcher I've named about which Jaguars are the largest on earth, I guarantee they'll tell you the same. Well Rogério Fonseca thinks otherwise but that doesn't seem to bother you at all. Quote:Since you like using Rafeal, you should ask him or have @epaiva if he approves I just showed a conversation via email between a guy and Hoogesteijn. That's literally it. Quote:but stop trying to somehow think that a 5kg average difference based off Jags from competlely different areas 20 plus years ago somehow represent the Jags found in the Pantanal 1 or meeting of the 3 rivers. My opinion is based on scientific facts. I don't wanna sound rude or something but stop telling what to. You have literally no scientific evidence and you're telling I have to stop focusing about a study? Becouse what? You've been to Brazil? You and I have been in many discussion and I don't care if I'm wrong in the end but for now, I'm gonna stick on said study which points out that Venezuelan male jaguars average higher than Pantanal males.
@Pckts @
Nowell and Jackson: http://carnivoractionplans1.free.fr/wild...f#page=180 But from modern data, it appears that in the wilderness, the Amur tiger is not the biggest of tigers or cats, being outweighed on average by the Bengal tiger, so we have to be careful of what Nowell and Jackson said above, even if they are experts on felids: http://fishowls.com/Slaght%20et%20al%202005.pdf, https://www.scribd.com/document/55288084...Tiger-2015, https://www.scribd.com/document/55287778...Tiger-2015 
I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs
Thanks @epaiva
I should be able to get us quite a few more from Fernando as well. Like I said, he hasn't worked the field in quite some time so Fernando has taken over most of the capturing. @ I wish you'd go explore these places and animals you claim to know more than the researchers who are there all their lives, you have an obvious passion for animals and you'll open a brand world of information. These place's desperately need more people like yourself and they won't last long without ecotourism. I'm regards to scientific studies, you are using one study yet not using other verified weights. So your criteria is to only take one study and not use other weights for the Pantanal which would increase the averages by quite a bit? How exactly I'm I not using scientific evidence when you're refusing to add them to the averages which would now increase higher than Los Llanos along with maximums, skull size and body size? (07-12-2019, 11:15 PM)Pckts Wrote: Thanks @epaiva Different experts may say different things about jaguars, like with tigers or other animals, so it ultimately goes down to the data. If the data say that Llanos jaguars can rival Pantanal jaguars in either average or overall weights, then we'll have no option but to treat with caution what researchers or experts say otherwise, in the same way that the statement of experts Nowell and Jackson, who wrote a book of over 300 pages, about Siberian tigers being the biggest tigers or felids (http://carnivoractionplans1.free.fr/wild...f#page=180) has to be treated with caution, in light of the data on wild tigers which don't support their assertion (http://fishowls.com/Slaght%20et%20al%202005.pdf, https://www.scribd.com/document/55288084...Tiger-2015, https://www.scribd.com/document/55287778...Tiger-2015). (07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs Nice, that you contacted him. Next time you discuss with him it would be nice to know if there is some new study already ready or coming soon, which would include new and recent information about average weights in different areas/populations. It would be interesting to see what kind of differences there are compared to 1996 study overall. Also very interesting if this paulo joins here. People like him just have to know what happens in their environment and how animals behave in different situations. While many discussions focus to tigers and lions, South America has so many interesting species. People should also "harass" more @epaiva . He knows much more, than he tells here about many things. He is out there measuring snakes, weighing animals and who knows what. I guess, that he is a bit shy 
(07-12-2019, 11:28 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:Fernando and Rafeal are part of the same project, they worked together, it's just Rafeal took a bit of a back seat and Fernando took the reigns over. I'm not sure why, maybe Rafeal got tired of going out in the hot sun or just took a more executive role, I won't pretend to know why.(07-12-2019, 11:15 PM)Pckts Wrote: Thanks @epaiva There was never a claim that Los llanos Jaguars couldn't rival Pantanal Jags, it's just the fact that they have only been more persecuted in recent years while pantanal Jags have only been more protected which is why you have larger males in the pantanal more frequently and a higher prey base and jaguar densisty. Los llanos could of produced many huge cats in the past but those days are gone unfortunately and regardless under the right conditions for both locations the pantanal is going to produce larger males simply because it's far larger and no place on earth holds more caiman. Like any park, you will have males that are as big as males anywhere else but the quantity of those large males will be dictated by the prey base, habitat and breeding females. A perfect example is Waghdoh from Tadoba, he's as large as almost any Tiger you can name but most other Tadoba males are smaller. (07-12-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote:In Venezuela only one person has been studying Jaguars since 2009, his name is Wlodek Jedrzejewski he has been doing a great research and the very good thing happening in Venezuela is that their numbers are increasing, he told me that he has seen very large Jaguars but the bad thing about him is that he does not want to share his pictures, it is incredible because he went to my house to measure my 4 puma skulls from Los Llanos and a skull of a small female jaguar from Estado Amazonas. He is not capturing weighting and measuring Jaguars because it is too expensive and you know our big economic problems here in Venezuela today, he is receiving economic help from a owner of a big ranch in Los Llanos and from Rafael Hoogesteijn, they are the only persons helping him with his research of Jaguars and wild cats in Venezuela.(07-12-2019, 09:45 PM)epaiva Wrote: I contacted Rafael Hoogesteijn today, he told me that the larger Jaguars are the ones from El Pantanal and a small number of Jaguars from Los Llanos are as big as the larger ones in El Pantanal. Females in El Pantanal are bigger and heavier than the ones found in los llanos he told me that the heaviest captured by them is the one captured on october 12th 2008 he weighted 148 kgs. They captured other big males one weighted 130 kgs |
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