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GreenGrolar · 04-15-2019, 05:57 PM

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Blue bird fighting with house sparrow.

Rishi · 04-15-2019, 07:24 PM

(04-15-2019, 11:19 AM)Luipaard Wrote: It all started with one person claiming that large jaguars are 'much, much' bigger than any leopard, which is false. I have proven that their sizes overlap. The largest leopard vs the largest jaguar won't be a huge difference.

Your subspecies & size overlap argument makes sense, but this is a bit too much. While largest leopard can touch 130kg if you're being generous, but largest jaguars could very possibly shoot past 150kg.
Both their sizes vary widely, making fair comparisons complicated, but Javan/Arabian leopard males can average <50kg too.

The visible size or stoutness is not reliable... We had a similar discussion earlier, about claims that Sundarban tigers "look" the same size as mainland tigers. Luckily some still lived side-by-side in cramped old zoo enclosures & a massive difference was clearly noted.

(04-15-2019, 05:20 PM)Arctotherium Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 02:59 PM)Sanju Wrote: Leopards are the 4th biggest modern cat and pumas are the 5th.

*This image is copyright of its original author
Florida Panther(Biggest Puma) is 120 kg
Anatolian Leopard(Biggest Leopard)is 80 kg

Although picking a small & a large subspecies is not very decent argument, but gotta agree that leopards & pumas may definitely be equals, both in size & success.

Sanju · 04-15-2019, 07:57 PM

(04-15-2019, 05:20 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: Florida Panther(Biggest Puma) is 120 kg
Anatolian Leopard(Biggest Leopard)is 80 kg

See what he's saying @~~Luipaard~~

When we are comparing leopards with jaguars, some are degrading leopard status, by comparison with cougars/mountain lions. You are the right person to reply this ...

@Arctotherium pls pay a visit to Central African leopards, African Leopards, Persian leopards, Lanka leopards & Indian leopards threads... Like

Sanju · 04-15-2019, 08:05 PM

(04-15-2019, 07:24 PM)Rishi Wrote: leopards & pumas may definitely be equals, both in size & success.

But still, a big cat is a big cat and a medium cat is a medium cat ("phylogenetically" related to cheetah but not based on size though).

Shadow · 04-15-2019, 08:12 PM

(04-15-2019, 07:24 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 11:19 AM)Luipaard Wrote: It all started with one person claiming that large jaguars are 'much, much' bigger than any leopard, which is false. I have proven that their sizes overlap. The largest leopard vs the largest jaguar won't be a huge difference.

Your subspecies & size overlap argument makes sense, but this is a bit too much. While largest leopard can touch 130kg if you're being generous, but largest jaguars could very possibly shoot past 150kg.
Both their sizes vary widely, making fair comparisons complicated, but Javan/Arabian leopard males can average <50kg too.

The visible size or stoutness is not reliable... We had a similar discussion earlier, about claims that Sundarban tigers "look" the same size as mainland tigers. Luckily some still lived side-by-side in cramped old zoo enclosures & a massive difference was clearly noted.

(04-15-2019, 05:20 PM)Arctotherium Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 02:59 PM)Sanju Wrote: Leopards are the 4th biggest modern cat and pumas are the 5th.

*This image is copyright of its original author
Florida Panther(Biggest Puma) is 120 kg
Anatolian Leopard(Biggest Leopard)is 80 kg

Although picking a small & a large subspecies is not very decent argument, but gotta agree that leopards & pumas may definitely be equals, both in size & success.

I think, that you wrote 130 kg about leopard by accident :)

Shadow · 04-15-2019, 08:13 PM

(04-15-2019, 08:05 PM)Sanju Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 07:24 PM)Rishi Wrote: leopards & pumas may definitely be equals, both in size & success.
But still, a big cat is a big cat and a medium cat is a medium cat ("phylogenetically" related to cheetah but not based on size though).

Just for curiosity, if and when biggest pumas are about 100 kg as well as biggest leopards, which one is big cat and which one is medium cat? Wink

Sanju · 04-15-2019, 08:17 PM

(04-15-2019, 08:13 PM)Shadow Wrote: Just for curiosity, if and when biggest pumas are about 100 kg as well as biggest leopards, which one is big cat and which one is medium cat?

(04-15-2019, 08:13 PM)Sanju Wrote: ("phylogenetically" related to cheetah but "not based on size" though).

I said genetically not based on size.

Even If Puma is 1 ton giant and leopard is just 10 kg. Still, Big cat is leopard coz it belong to Panthera or Big cat genus. Wink

Shadow · 04-15-2019, 08:20 PM

(04-15-2019, 08:17 PM)Sanju Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 08:13 PM)Shadow Wrote: Just for curiosity, if and when biggest pumas are about 100 kg as well as biggest leopards, which one is big cat and which one is medium cat?

(04-15-2019, 08:13 PM)Sanju Wrote: ("phylogenetically" related to cheetah but "not based on size" though).
I said genetically not based on size.

Even If Puma is 1 ton giant and leopard is just 10 kg. Still, Big cat is leopard coz it belong to Panthera or Big cat genus.

Ok, I consider puma also big cat and you also stated, that leopard is number 4 and puma number 5. So maybe you should decide at this point your final opinion? Wink

Sanju · 04-15-2019, 08:26 PM

(04-15-2019, 08:20 PM)Shadow Wrote: Ok, I consider puma also big cat and you also stated, that leopard is number 4 and puma number 5. So maybe you should decide at this point your final opinion?

Acc, Nat geo definition based on size : cougars, lynx, snow leopards, cloudie & cheetah are also considered as Big cats making number of big cat species around the globe "8" along with panthera genus.

So, in generalized basis I too accept Puma as a BIG CAT !!! Wink

Cheers..

Rishi · 04-15-2019, 08:58 PM

(04-15-2019, 08:12 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 07:24 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 11:19 AM)Luipaard Wrote: It all started with one person claiming that large jaguars are 'much, much' bigger than any leopard, which is false. I have proven that their sizes overlap. The largest leopard vs the largest jaguar won't be a huge difference.

Your subspecies & size overlap argument makes sense, but this is a bit too much. While largest leopard can touch 130kg if you're being generous, but largest jaguars could very possibly shoot past 150kg.
Both their sizes vary widely, making fair comparisons complicated, but Javan/Arabian leopard males can average <50kg too.

I think, that you wrote 130 kg about leopard by accident :)

Ok, maybe that's a bit too generous. 115-120 kg then... We're talking largest possible.

(04-15-2019, 08:26 PM)Sanju Wrote: Acc, Nat geo definition based on size : cougars, lynx, snow leopards, cloudie & cheetah are also considered as Big cats making number of big cat species around the globe "8" along with panthera genus.

Other than the Lion, Tiger, Jaguar, Leopard, Puma the rest should be called "medium cats" or something like that.

Ocelots can reach upto 25kg too. Below that there's a considerable gap of almost 10 kilos.

Sanju · 04-15-2019, 09:10 PM

(04-15-2019, 08:12 PM)Shadow Wrote: I think, that you wrote 130 kg about leopard by accident :)

It's the "maximum estimated body mass" of that species which is not proved or had any evidence we are not modern anatomical humans then, to paint in caves neither had this much of cognitive skills to document in literature which developed just during past millennium.

Since, leopard evolution (Pleistocene), it is the most probably maximum weight attaining limit for any leopard on earth i.e.., 130 kg approx. Similarly, for jaguar since it's evolution when man was not in full wrath about a mya, the highest weight limit for jaguar species is approximately around 200 kg when earth habitats are negligibly altered by humans and most of mega fauna still alive. Gradually that giant jaguar Pleistocene spp evolved to modern day one.

I think that's what rishi said there. right rishi?

Pckts · 04-15-2019, 10:26 PM

(04-15-2019, 04:59 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 04:11 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 01:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 11:49 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(03-29-2019, 04:19 PM)Pckts Wrote: 1.Equatorial forests or not, pantanal Jags are going to be 1.5 to 2 times the size.

Yup, I don't know pantanal's or not, but all jaguars in our zoo are way larger and way more robust than the leopards. Completely different weight category, no comparison. If leop stand in point A and tiger in point Z jaguar is somewhere in the middle.

And do you know what kind of leopard your zoo has? You can't compare a small leopard subspecies with a large subspecies of jaguar. It could be the other way aswell. Imagine having a 40kg jaguar from anywhere in Central America and a large leopard like this one:

*This image is copyright of its original author

They overlap in size. Most zoos have a common leopard or (luckily) a Amur one. They're average sized and everyone takes them as the norm. That's not supposed to be.
And do you know what type of sub species the Jags in the zoos are as well?
You cant use one excuse for one cat but not apply the same to another.

Also I've seen many Captive leopards and none have come close to the size of the large Male I saw in Tanzania.
Now compare that to someone like Marlon Dutoit who's probably seen over 100+ different wild leopards from all over Africa and states that Leopards aren't close in size to the Pantanal Jags he's seen.

115kg Persian isn't a freak, its unconfirmed, missing a paw and most likely false. Considering there are 2 more weights for Congo Basin Leopards of 42kg and 48kg and both missing paws from snare traps that'd mean that the Persian is more than 2 times the size of them and judging by the picture of the Persian next to people I think we all know it's not.

Now compare that with no Leopard ever weighing more than 100kgs "verified" to Jaguars easily being over 100kg and a verified 142kg and another 158kg claimed to be weighed by the same panthera group that Jo is talking about.

In regards to Puma vs Leopard size:
I'd have to say that Puma have a propensity to be the larger of the two, if I recall correctly there are a few 100kg plus puma that are verified compared to almost none for Leopards. But Leopards definitely have the Skull, neck and probably chest girth advantage,
Of course itll depend on which location you use. Cougars are smaller towards the equator and larger towards the poles. And it's no surprise that when all things are equal the Cougar is significantly outsized when sharing habitat with the Jaguar. Of course you can use rare locations or unconfirmed weights and claims but if you're going to speculate on one end then you must compare apples to apples and do same generous claims for the other.

If you remove the speculation and just use facts, no leopard from anywhere on earth averages over 70kg and none have weighed more than 91kg while Jaguars can average over 105kg with one weighing more than 140kg. *verified weights*

That's almost 1.5 times the size at averages and more than that at Max weights.
That is basically the difference between a Male and female of any Big cat species.

Like I've said before, I have little doubt that there are 100+kg leopards but I also have little doubt that there are 150+kg Jaguars as well. Again, we must use apples to apples and no matter the animal there will always be larger "fish" in the sea.

Quote:Now compare that to someone like Marlon Dutoit who's probably seen over 100+ different wild leopards from all over Africa and states that Leopards aren't close in size to the Pantanal Jags he's seen.

All over Africa, I doubt it. He hasn't been in Gabon or Congo Basin rainforest. Has he been to Aberdare in Kenya? Those leopards are also larger than the common South African leopards.

Quote:115kg Persian isn't a freak, its unconfirmed, missing a paw and most likely false.

And still its weight is in the weight chart and published. And yes it's a freak, just like that 113kg Indian male.

Quote:Considering there are 2 more weights for Congo Basin Leopards of 42kg and 48kg and both missing paws from snare traps that'd mean that the Persian is more than 2 times the size of them and judging by the picture of the Persian next to people I think we all know it's not.

Bad comparison. Plus those are your only verified weights from Central African leopards; 2 leopards in bad condition and yet you keep using those 2 weights as the norm. Meanwhile these leopards have average skull sizes that even large South African leopards struggle to reach. So I seriously doubt a healthy male would way less than 70kg.

Quote:Now compare that with no Leopard ever weighing more than 100kgs "verified" to Jaguars easily being over 100kg and a verified 142kg and another 158kg claimed to be weighed by the same panthera group that Jo is talking about.

Hard to verify since they're barely being researched. It's easier to see a Pantanal male as a tourist than a leopard in the Congo Basin. But based on what we have (e.g. camera traps, skull measurements, researchers that also notice a different, more robust appearance). It's safe to say that the males we've seen so far, are atleast 90kg. They're far more impressive than an average Pantanal male so you have to use a large Pantanal male to best these leopards.

Quote:If you remove the speculation and just use facts, no leopard from anywhere on earth averages over 70kg

I have told you before, they average 70kg in Botswana and most likely those from equatorial forests aswell.

Quote:none have weighed more than 91kg

Heaviest verified weight so far is 96kg, a male from Namibia, Valencia.

Quote:Like I've said before, I have little doubt that there are 100+kg leopards

I've seen enough males that probably reaches that number. Too bad we can only speculate.

"Robin Hurt had some experience hunting in Central Africa (DR Congo, CAR, Sudan). He only hunted one leopard in DR Congo and it turned out to be the biggest he encountered. He said it was almost as big as a lioness, its skull was over 11 inches long and he estimated the weight at 220lbs. According to him, the biggest leopards in Africa are usually found in the rainforest areas (both Central and East Africa). He also adds that very big leopard can sometimes be found in Southern Africa (Zimbabwe and Namibia etc) but these are exceptions. He is currently based in Namibia so he has no incentive to exaggerate the size of Congo leopards where trophy hunting is now banned. Robin Hurt's experience mirrors that of Peter TurnBull-Kemp who had also dealt with leopards from throughout Africa and similarly concluded the biggest are found in the equatorial forests. The biggest leopard Turnbull-Kemp had ever seen was a monster specimen killed in Cameroon. I'm not surprised by the convergent opinion of both these very experienced authorities on African leopards given the fact it is strongly supported by skull data and frankly a logical understanding of natural selection.

The huge forest leopard shot by a client of Robin Hurt in DR Congo in the 1980s. The only one taken by Hurt in the Congo yet an absolutely huge specimen according to him. Here we can get an idea of what a leopard with a 280mm skull looks like, such big leopards appear to be relatively common in this part of Africa."

*This image is copyright of its original author

My original Post that I deleted:

"And do you know what type of sub species the Jags in the zoos are as well?
You cant use one excuse for one cat but not apply the same to another.

Also I've seen many Captive leopards and none have come close to the size of the large Male I saw in Tanzania.
Now compare that to someone like Marlon Dutoit who's probably seen over 100+ different wild leopards from all over Africa and states that Leopards aren't close in size to the Pantanal Jags he's seen.

115kg Persian isn't a freak, its unconfirmed, missing a paw and most likely false. Considering there are 2 more weights for Congo Basin Leopards of 42kg and 48kg and both missing paws from snare traps that'd mean that the Persian is more than 2 times the size of them and judging by the picture of the Persian next to people I think we all know it's not.

Now compare that with no Leopard ever weighing more than 100kgs "verified" to Jaguars easily being over 100kg and a verified 142kg and another 158kg claimed to be weighed by the same panthera group that Jo is talking about.

In regards to Puma vs Leopard size:
I'd have to say that Puma have a propensity to be the larger of the two, if I recall correctly there are a few 100kg plus puma that are verified compared to almost none for Leopards. But Leopards definitely have the Skull, neck and probably chest girth advantage,
Of course itll depend on which location you use. Cougars are smaller towards the equator and larger towards the poles. And it's no surprise that when all things are equal the Cougar is significantly outsized when sharing habitat with the Jaguar. Of course you can use rare locations or unconfirmed weights and claims but if you're going to speculate on one end then you must compare apples to apples and do same generous claims for the other.

If you remove the speculation and just use facts, no leopard from anywhere on earth averages over 70kg and none have weighed more than 91kg while Jaguars can average over 105kg with one weighing more than 140kg. *verified weights*

That's almost 1.5 times the size at averages and more than that at Max weights.
That is basically the difference between a Male and female of any Big cat species.

Like I've said before, I have little doubt that there are 100+kg leopards but I also have little doubt that there are 150+kg Jaguars as well. Again, we must use apples to apples and no matter the animal there will always be larger "fish" in the sea."

Now in response to some of your statements

"

Quote:115kg Persian isn't a freak, its unconfirmed, missing a paw and most likely false.

And still its weight is in the weight chart and published. And yes it's a freak, just like that 113kg Indian male.

Quote:Considering there are 2 more weights for Congo Basin Leopards of 42kg and 48kg and both missing paws from snare traps that'd mean that the Persian is more than 2 times the size of them and judging by the picture of the Persian next to people I think we all know it's not.

Bad comparison. Plus those are your only verified weights from Central African leopards; 2 leopards in bad condition and yet you keep using those 2 weights as the norm. Meanwhile these leopards have average skull sizes that even large South African leopards struggle to reach. So I seriously doubt a healthy male would way less than 70kg."

Bad Comparison?
How is 2 different male Leopards from the Congo Basin where you're claiming the largest leopards live both with weights under 49kg and missing paws just like the Persian which is claimed to be 115kg a bad comparison?

Lets compare him to an African Counterpart

115kg claimed persian

*This image is copyright of its original author

compared to a 57kg Persian

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Compared to a 56kg Leopard

*This image is copyright of its original author

64 Kg Male

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64kg Male

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69kg Male

*This image is copyright of its original author

I'm sorry, but not a chance is that Persian Leopard almost double the size of these Leopards, so that Claim and the 113kg Indian Claim are not what I consider verified by any means while you have a Video of 142kg Jaguar being weighed and the Panthera Group, who you quoted as stating they have weighed a 158kg Jaguar as well.

Now on to Marlon Du Toit
https://www.instagram.com/marlondutoit/
Do yourself a favor and scroll through, I think he has a pretty good catalog of big cat experience wouldn't you say?

Now onto this

*This image is copyright of its original author

Yup, he sure does look large.
But yet again, so does he

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and he

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or him

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or

*This image is copyright of its original author

..

*This image is copyright of its original author

and so on.

Heaviest verified weight so far is 96kg, a male from Namibia, Valencia.

Ok, still under 100kg.

Now here is an actual 100kg Jaguar Empty

*This image is copyright of its original author

A few more large hunted Jaguars

*This image is copyright of its original author

Same man with a Jaguar

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and Leopard

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is a big difference when you adjust perception, for example...
Sitting the Cat above you, sitting behind the cat or holding the Cat up to stretch the body out all make a huge difference and are old tricks hunters use to exaggerate size.

Arctotherium · 04-16-2019, 03:40 PM

(04-15-2019, 07:57 PM)Sanju Wrote:
(04-15-2019, 05:20 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: Florida Panther(Biggest Puma) is 120 kg
Anatolian Leopard(Biggest Leopard)is 80 kg
See what he's saying @~~Luipaard~~

When we are comparing leopards with jaguars, some are degrading leopard status, by comparison with cougars/mountain lions. You are the right person to reply this ...

@Arctotherium pls pay a visit to Central African leopards, African Leopards, Persian leopards, Lanka leopards & Indian leopards threads...

Anatolian Leopard is largest Leopard(With African Leopard)
Puma is not member of Panthera.But Puma is larger than Leopard.

Pckts · 04-16-2019, 04:38 PM

*This image is copyright of its original author

This is pretty much what I expected, I knew Sangam was a large cat but he still doesnt look to be in the heavyweight class. Uma and Cm must really be sights to behold.

He's also seen mangu and been to Bandhavgarh and I asked how they compare, see below.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Rishi · 04-16-2019, 05:09 PM

(04-16-2019, 03:40 PM)Arctotherium Wrote: Anatolian Leopard is largest Leopard(With African Leopard)

You can't make such claim without presenting data backup.

From what i see, other than Javan & Arabian most leopards subspecies seem to have similar weight range of 50-100kg (males).
Beyond this point you'd ideally need scores of readings to guesstimate any average.

@Pckts some populations are more numerous than others, that plays a big role in number of massive leopards people posing at tricky angles with.
Plus conflict animals are never cream of the crop... If India didn't discontinue sport-hunting then I'm sure we'd have more images of people killng off our largest leopards.

*This image is copyright of its original author

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