There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
05-08-2022, 05:34 PM( This post was last modified: 05-09-2022, 12:09 AM by LonePredator )
@GuateGojira @Styx38 Regarding the Yacare Caiman, I found this. Note that it’s based on estimation by an equation and it doesn’t specifically mention ‘adult males only‘
*This image is copyright of its original author
I would assume all the individuals over 40kg are adult males but then again it’s possible that Jaguars deliberately go for smaller or weaker specimen as much as possible so it could be a ‘cherry picked’ sample.
05-08-2022, 07:03 PM( This post was last modified: 05-09-2022, 07:29 PM by LonePredator )
Comparison of 1m long, 3m long and 5m long saltwater crocodile skulls, all scaled to the same length. Crocodiles get much bulkier as they get longer at least upto a certain point.
05-08-2022, 11:44 PM( This post was last modified: 05-09-2022, 07:37 PM by LonePredator )
(04-26-2022, 02:30 AM)KGuateGojira Wrote:
(04-26-2022, 01:29 AM)LonePredator Wrote: I took the 3 mugger weights, one of 111kg at 274cm by Brander which you provided just a moment ago. Then I took the 195kg at 300cm and then I took the 750kg at 560cm and then I tested this relation with these weights but it obviously did not match but I would still say that a 350cm mugger should likely be 300kg+.
Remember that, sadly, you only have one real weight (the captive one), the other two are estimations and I don't know where you got that 750 kg figure, there is no record about that. In fact, in the webpage of the Wildlife Institute of India they quote a maximum weight of 450 kg, check it:
"The Mugger crocodile is a medium to large crocodilian species; an adult male may reach up to 4.5 meters (18 ft) in length and weigh 450 kg (1000 lbs). It has a distinctive aspect, and is the most alligator like of all crocodile species. While juvenile’s generally have a light tan colouring with some black cross-banding on the body and tail, adult specimens are generally gray to brown."
Also, Whitaker & Whitaker (1984) quote that the maximum size reported is of 5.63 m but they do not provide body mases, check it:
*This image is copyright of its original author
As real (and reliable) weights of big crocodiles are very scarce, I leave you this detail that may be helpfull. In Costa Rica the Dr Brady Barr measured and weighed what could be the biggest American crocodile ever measured and the only actually weighed, all recorded in video. The animal measured 482 cm (incomplete tail) and they estimated probably up to 5 meters and the beast weighed 1,250 lb (567 kg) and final weight excluding gear says it was 540 kg.
About the Wildlife Institute of India data. Lots of things are wrong and unreliable about it. Let me explain...
It’s possible that they put this data by mistake because it says “an adult may reach 4.5m (18ft) in length” but the conversion is wrong. 4.5 metres is 14.75 feet but it says 18 feet which is wrong conversion. 18 feet is 550cm but it’s possible that 18 feet is referring to the 563cm length by Whitaker which is 18ft 5.5inches but they may have rounded it off to just 18feet. I strongly believe this is the case because they even cite a source belonging to Whitaker just in the next paragraph.
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again that 450kg weight is unreliable because no such confirmed weight of 450kg exists for a Mugger and as expected, they did not provide any source for the 450kg weight either.
Now, as the 5.63m length by Whitaker is reliable and is based on 2 specimens, then the maximum possible weight for Mugger Crocodiles based on a max length of 5.63m would definitely be A LOT more than 450kg.
A 5.63m Mugger should be about 1,000kg or more based on the 195kg weight and the 111kg esimate by Brander but even if we assume same weight/length relation as other crocodile species, it would still be around 2 times more than 450kg so the maximum weight for a Mugger should be around 1000kg or more. I would personally say somewhere between 1050-1150kg for that 5.63m Mugger but I can’t say it with enough conviction as we have very less data for Muggers but I can say with conviction that it's no less than 800-900kg.
In fact, every normally available information about crocodilians seems VERY wrong to me. The standard of size of crocodilians is normally considered by their length rather than weight except for the obvious Gharial and this is so wrong and this is likely also due to the fact that there is lot of data about length of crocodilian species but barely any weight data so people just compare them based on length.
People say Nile Crocodiles are the largest after Saltwater Crocs but there is nothing concrete to support this claim because with the data I have seen of 50 years ago, the average weight of Nile Crocodiles is only around 200kg @ 3.66m in Lake Turana (Graham, 1968), 3.65m from Kruger so the weight should be same in Kruger too (Guggisberg, 1972) I only have access to the first one so I’ll attach the link below. (See page no. 76)
As Whitaker mentions that the average Muggers are 300-350cm then let’s assume 325cm (3.25m), then 325cm Muggers can definitely be as heavy or even heavier than average Nile Crocodiles based on the 195kg weight @ 300cm (which was not even as bulky as normal full sized Muggers) and 111kg estimate @ 273cm by Brander but again this is so few data to make a concrete statement.
In terms of weight, that 5.63 metre Mugger could possibly be heavier than the Lolong Saltwater Crocodile of 1075kg but as long as the 5.63m croc was not in a starving and emaciated state, there’s NO way it was any less than 850kg.
I have seen data which STRONGLY suggests (but not enough to prove) that Muggers could likely be the third heaviest or probably even second heaviest living crocodilians in terms of average weight and that 5.63m specimen could have been heavier than Lolong but at least 800-900kg minimum.
As you said the largest reliable weight for the American Crocodile was just less than 600kg, then the 5.63 metre Mugger was definitely much more heavier than that American Crocodile specimen as well. The minimum possible weight for that 5.63m Mugger is 850kg unless it was in a starving state but a ton seems more likely so the maximum weight for Muggers should be stated as at least 850kg.
(05-08-2022, 11:44 PM)LonePredator Wrote: About the Wildlife Institute of India data. Lots of things are wrong and unreliable about it. Let me explain...
It’s possible that they put this data by mistake because it says “an adult may reach 4.5m (18ft) in length” but the conversion is wrong. 4.5 metres is 14.75 feet but it says 18 feet which is wrong. 18 feet is 550cm but it’s possible that 18 feet is referring to the 563cm length by Whitaker which is 18ft 5.5inches but they may have rounded it off to just 18feet. I strongly believe this is the case because they even cite a source belonging to Whitaker just in the next paragraph.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again that 450kg weight is unreliable because no such confirmed weight of 450kg exists for a Mugger and as expected, they did not provide any source for the 450kg weight either.
Now, as the 5.63m length by Whitaker is reliable and is based on 2 specimens, then the maximum possible weight for a Mugger crocodile of 5.63m would definitely be A LOT more than 450kg.
A 5.63m Mugger should be about 1,000kg or more based on the 195kg weight and the 111kg esimate by Brander but even if we assume same weight/length relation as other crocodile species, it would still be around 2 times more than 450kg so the maximum weight for a Mugger should be around 1000kg or more. I would personally say somewhere between 1050-1150kg for that 5.63m Mugger but I can’t say it with enough conviction as we have very less data for Muggers.
In fact, every normally available information about crocodilians seems VERY wrong to me. The standard of size of crocodilians is normally considered by their length rather than weight except for the obvious Gharial and this is so wrong and this is likely also due to the fact that there is lot of data about length of crocodilian species but barely any weight data so people just compare them based on length.
People say Nile Crocodiles are the largest after Saltwater Crocs but there is nothing concrete to support this claim because with the data I have seen of 50 years ago, the average weight of Nile Crocodiles is only around 200kg @ 3.66m in Lake Turana (Graham, 1968), 3.65m from Kruger so the weight should be same in Kruger too (Guggisberg, 1972) I only have access to the first one so I’ll attach the link below. (See page no. 76)
As Whitaker mentions that the average Muggers are 300-350cm then let’s assume 325cm (3.25m), then 325cm Muggers can definitely be as heavy or even heavier than average Nile Crocodiles based on the 195kg weight @ 300cm (which was not even as bulky as normal full sized Muggers) and 111kg estimate @ 273cm by Brander but again this is so few data to make a concrete statement.
In terms of weight, that 5.63 metre Mugger could even be heavier than the Lolong Saltwater Crocodile of 1075kg but as long as the 5.63m croc was not in a starving and emaciated state, there’s NO way it was any less than 850kg.
I have seen data which STRONGLY suggests (but not enough to prove) that Muggers could likely be the third heaviest or probably even second heaviest living crocodilians in terms of average weight and that 5.63m specimen could have even been heavier than Lolong but at least 800-900kg minimum.
As you said the largest reliable weight for the American Crocodile was just less than 600kg, then the 5.63 metre Mugger was definitely much more heavier than that American Crocodile specimen as well. The minimum possible weight for that 5.63m Mugger is 850kg unless it was in a starving state but a ton seems more likely so the maximum weight for Muggers should be stated as at least 850kg.
Been honest, very few crocodilians had been weighed, I mean "actually" weighed, and most of the figures, even in official books, are estimations.
For saltwater crocs, I think that we have only a couple of real weights, most from captivity, the same for other species. Resently I checked a document about a black caiman (one of the biggest crocodilian species) and mentioned a large specimen of 4.2 m that weighed only about 350 kg and looks normal. However, again, we see the type of error that you mentioned, as the animal is described as 13 ft long (3.96 m) but latter it says that is 4.2 m, so, which is the correct one? This is the paper: https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080...1/fulltext
So this confusion difficult to take a good appreciation of size and weight, specially in animals that has been studied very poorly regarding its body mass.
With such a few information, we can't be sure which is the heaviest specimen on average, or the heaviest in relation with its length. We need real data and for the moment we don't have it.
We must remember that while Romulus Whitaker is one of the most reliable sources on crocs, he did not measured those two specimens of 5.63 m, but he quotes Deraniyagala (1939), so it will be interesting to see the original source and see if Deraniyagala actually measured or saw the measurements of the animals, or if he was just quoting a hunting record, like the unreliable figure of 6.8 m for an Orinoco croc, that is often quoted by experts, but when we check the original source, it don't even say how they measured the animal.
Whitaker says that the average male is between 3 - 3.5 m and at 1890 the biggest specimen in the Brithish Museum was of 366 cm, althouth the author accepted that bigger do exist (Boulenger, 1890). Certainly we need more information about this croc species.
05-09-2022, 10:55 PM( This post was last modified: 05-10-2022, 10:00 AM by LonePredator )
(05-09-2022, 09:45 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(05-08-2022, 11:44 PM)LonePredator Wrote: About the Wildlife Institute of India data. Lots of things are wrong and unreliable about it. Let me explain...
It’s possible that they put this data by mistake because it says “an adult may reach 4.5m (18ft) in length” but the conversion is wrong. 4.5 metres is 14.75 feet but it says 18 feet which is wrong. 18 feet is 550cm but it’s possible that 18 feet is referring to the 563cm length by Whitaker which is 18ft 5.5inches but they may have rounded it off to just 18feet. I strongly believe this is the case because they even cite a source belonging to Whitaker just in the next paragraph.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
And again that 450kg weight is unreliable because no such confirmed weight of 450kg exists for a Mugger and as expected, they did not provide any source for the 450kg weight either.
Now, as the 5.63m length by Whitaker is reliable and is based on 2 specimens, then the maximum possible weight for a Mugger crocodile of 5.63m would definitely be A LOT more than 450kg.
A 5.63m Mugger should be about 1,000kg or more based on the 195kg weight and the 111kg esimate by Brander but even if we assume same weight/length relation as other crocodile species, it would still be around 2 times more than 450kg so the maximum weight for a Mugger should be around 1000kg or more. I would personally say somewhere between 1050-1150kg for that 5.63m Mugger but I can’t say it with enough conviction as we have very less data for Muggers.
In fact, every normally available information about crocodilians seems VERY wrong to me. The standard of size of crocodilians is normally considered by their length rather than weight except for the obvious Gharial and this is so wrong and this is likely also due to the fact that there is lot of data about length of crocodilian species but barely any weight data so people just compare them based on length.
People say Nile Crocodiles are the largest after Saltwater Crocs but there is nothing concrete to support this claim because with the data I have seen of 50 years ago, the average weight of Nile Crocodiles is only around 200kg @ 3.66m in Lake Turana (Graham, 1968), 3.65m from Kruger so the weight should be same in Kruger too (Guggisberg, 1972) I only have access to the first one so I’ll attach the link below. (See page no. 76)
As Whitaker mentions that the average Muggers are 300-350cm then let’s assume 325cm (3.25m), then 325cm Muggers can definitely be as heavy or even heavier than average Nile Crocodiles based on the 195kg weight @ 300cm (which was not even as bulky as normal full sized Muggers) and 111kg estimate @ 273cm by Brander but again this is so few data to make a concrete statement.
In terms of weight, that 5.63 metre Mugger could even be heavier than the Lolong Saltwater Crocodile of 1075kg but as long as the 5.63m croc was not in a starving and emaciated state, there’s NO way it was any less than 850kg.
I have seen data which STRONGLY suggests (but not enough to prove) that Muggers could likely be the third heaviest or probably even second heaviest living crocodilians in terms of average weight and that 5.63m specimen could have even been heavier than Lolong but at least 800-900kg minimum.
As you said the largest reliable weight for the American Crocodile was just less than 600kg, then the 5.63 metre Mugger was definitely much more heavier than that American Crocodile specimen as well. The minimum possible weight for that 5.63m Mugger is 850kg unless it was in a starving state but a ton seems more likely so the maximum weight for Muggers should be stated as at least 850kg.
Been honest, very few crocodilians had been weighed, I mean "actually" weighed, and most of the figures, even in official books, are estimations.
For saltwater crocs, I think that we have only a couple of real weights, most from captivity, the same for other species. Resently I checked a document about a black caiman (one of the biggest crocodilian species) and mentioned a large specimen of 4.2 m that weighed only about 350 kg and looks normal. However, again, we see the type of error that you mentioned, as the animal is described as 13 ft long (3.96 m) but latter it says that is 4.2 m, so, which is the correct one? This is the paper: https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080...1/fulltext
So this confusion difficult to take a good appreciation of size and weight, specially in animals that has been studied very poorly regarding its body mass.
With such a few information, we can't be sure which is the heaviest specimen on average, or the heaviest in relation with its length. We need real data and for the moment we don't have it.
We must remember that while Romulus Whitaker is one of the most reliable sources on crocs, he did not measured those two specimens of 5.63 m, but he quotes Deraniyagala (1939), so it will be interesting to see the original source and see if Deraniyagala actually measured or saw the measurements of the animals, or if he was just quoting a hunting record, like the unreliable figure of 6.8 m for an Orinoco croc, that is often quoted by experts, but when we check the original source, it don't even say how they measured the animal.
Whitaker says that the average male is between 3 - 3.5 m and at 1890 the biggest specimen in the Brithish Museum was of 366 cm, althouth the author accepted that bigger do exist (Boulenger, 1890). Certainly we need more information about this croc species.
Actually, we have much more weights of saltwater crocodiles but you’re right that most weights are of captive specimens but it’s the same case for most other crocodilian weights as well.
Nile and Saltwater crocodiles weights are much more available than any other species. But normally weights don’t seem to have much variation among captive or wild specimens.
For now, I found this one with weights and lengths of 44 Saltwater specimens but there there is more data too :
Now, if you calculate the weight for a 5.63m Mugger based on these saltwater weights, it would still be 800-900kg (assuming that Muggers are the same weight as Saltwater Crocs at same length).
But techically it should be even heavier because Muggers are the most ‘alligator-like’ and hefty in terms of morphology, they have the broadest snouts among all living crocodiles and likely the third broadest among all crocodilians only behind Chinese Alligator and Broad-Snouted Caiman which suggests that they are the heaviest crocodiles at equal lengths and the little data we have about their weights also reflects this characteristic of Muggers.
As for the lengths, if I quote Whitaker word by word, this is what he said “The maximum RELIABLY recorded length for the Mugger is 5.63m based on 2 specimens”. So he does makes it clear that the 5.63m length for the Mugger is reliable and there doesn’t seem to be doubt about it’s reliability. Also Deraniyagala (1939) stated this length in the Ceylon Journal of Science, the Tetrapod Reptiles of Ceylon Vol 1 so I don’t think a journal as such would mention a hunting record.
Now, for the Black Caiman, from what I roughly saw, Black Caimans are generally around the same weight as most Crocodiles at equal lengths so if you ask me to pick one of those lengths then I would say 4.2 metre seems more reliable to me and a 4.2 metre Black Caiman weighing 350kg seems normal and makes more sense.
And interestingly, as far as I remember, the longest Black Caiman actually recorded is only about 14 feet but they still accept that Black Caimans could exceed 16feet 5inch and on basis of that, they make the claim that Black Caimans are very large even though there is no concrete proof of a 16feet 5inch Black Caiman specimen.
Same is the case for American Crocodiles and Orinoco Crocodiles, no known reliable lengths over 5.5 metres but there are still claims about Orinoco, Black Caiman and American Alligator being the 3rd, 4th and 5th largest crocodilians. But these claims have been made on the basis of unreliable information without any proof to back these claims.
So in case of Muggers, 5.63m is much more reliable than 5 metre Black Caimans or 6.8 metre Orinoco Crocodiles (which is literally from 222 years ago). The highest known reliable lengths of Muggers is higher than that of Orinoco Crocodiles, Black Caimans or American Crocodiles and with that length, the weight of that Mugger would be much higher as well.
With the reliable data that we do have available, it shows that Muggers have attained larger sizes than all other crocodilians except Nile and Saltwater Crocodiles and this is despite the fact that data about Muggers is so scarce.
Great comparative image, that is very helpfull. Now, I will like to know the size of the human, to give us an idea. If that guy is of my size, that leopard is certainly no less than 70 cm in height and double in length.
(05-09-2022, 10:55 PM)LonePredator Wrote: Now, if you calculate the weight for a 5.63m Mugger based on these saltwater weights, it would still be 800-900kg (assuming that Muggers are the same weight as Saltwater Crocs at same length).
But techically it should be even heavier because Muggers are the most ‘alligator-like’ and hefty in terms of morphology, they have the broadest snouts among all living crocodiles and likely the third broadest among all crocodilians only behind Chinese Alligator and Broad-Snouted Caiman which suggests that they are the heaviest crocodiles at equal lengths and the little data we have about their weights also reflects this characteristic of Muggers.
As for the lengths, if I quote Whitaker word by word, this is what he said “The maximum RELIABLY recorded length for the Mugger is 5.63m based on 2 specimens”. So he does makes it clear that the 5.63m length for the Mugger is reliable and there doesn’t seem to be doubt about it’s reliability. Also Deraniyagala (1939) stated this length in the Ceylon Journal of Science, the Tetrapod Reptiles of Ceylon Vol 1 so I don’t think a journal as such would mention a hunting record.
Now, for the Black Caiman, from what I roughly saw, Black Caimans are generally around the same weight as most Crocodiles at equal lengths so if you ask me to pick one of those lengths then I would say 4.2 metre seems more reliable to me and a 4.2 metre Black Caiman weighing 350kg seems normal and makes more sense.
And interestingly, as far as I remember, the longest Black Caiman actually recorded is only about 14 feet but they still accept that Black Caimans could exceed 16feet 5inch and on basis of that, they make the claim that Black Caimans are very large even though there is no concrete proof of a 16feet 5inch Black Caiman specimen.
Same is the case for American Crocodiles and Orinoco Crocodiles, no known reliable lengths over 5.5 metres but there are still claims about Orinoco, Black Caiman and American Alligator being the 3rd, 4th and 5th largest crocodilians. But these claims have been made on the basis of unreliable information without any proof to back these claims.
So in case of Muggers, 5.63m is much more reliable than 5 metre Black Caimans or 6.8 metre Orinoco Crocodiles (which is literally from 222 years ago). The highest known reliable lengths of Muggers is higher than that of Orinoco Crocodiles, Black Caimans or American Crocodiles and with that length, the weight of that Mugger would be much higher as well.
With the reliable data that we do have available, it shows that Muggers have attained larger sizes than all other crocodilians except Nile and Saltwater Crocodiles and this is despite the fact that data about Muggers is so scarce.
It will be good if someone can get all the lengths and body masses available (actually taken, not estimated) to create a database for this animals. I have a few, let's use only adult specimens.
05-10-2022, 09:14 PM( This post was last modified: 05-10-2022, 09:27 PM by LonePredator )
(05-10-2022, 08:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(05-09-2022, 10:55 PM)LonePredator Wrote: Now, if you calculate the weight for a 5.63m Mugger based on these saltwater weights, it would still be 800-900kg (assuming that Muggers are the same weight as Saltwater Crocs at same length).
But techically it should be even heavier because Muggers are the most ‘alligator-like’ and hefty in terms of morphology, they have the broadest snouts among all living crocodiles and likely the third broadest among all crocodilians only behind Chinese Alligator and Broad-Snouted Caiman which suggests that they are the heaviest crocodiles at equal lengths and the little data we have about their weights also reflects this characteristic of Muggers.
As for the lengths, if I quote Whitaker word by word, this is what he said “The maximum RELIABLY recorded length for the Mugger is 5.63m based on 2 specimens”. So he does makes it clear that the 5.63m length for the Mugger is reliable and there doesn’t seem to be doubt about it’s reliability. Also Deraniyagala (1939) stated this length in the Ceylon Journal of Science, the Tetrapod Reptiles of Ceylon Vol 1 so I don’t think a journal as such would mention a hunting record.
Now, for the Black Caiman, from what I roughly saw, Black Caimans are generally around the same weight as most Crocodiles at equal lengths so if you ask me to pick one of those lengths then I would say 4.2 metre seems more reliable to me and a 4.2 metre Black Caiman weighing 350kg seems normal and makes more sense.
And interestingly, as far as I remember, the longest Black Caiman actually recorded is only about 14 feet but they still accept that Black Caimans could exceed 16feet 5inch and on basis of that, they make the claim that Black Caimans are very large even though there is no concrete proof of a 16feet 5inch Black Caiman specimen.
Same is the case for American Crocodiles and Orinoco Crocodiles, no known reliable lengths over 5.5 metres but there are still claims about Orinoco, Black Caiman and American Alligator being the 3rd, 4th and 5th largest crocodilians. But these claims have been made on the basis of unreliable information without any proof to back these claims.
So in case of Muggers, 5.63m is much more reliable than 5 metre Black Caimans or 6.8 metre Orinoco Crocodiles (which is literally from 222 years ago). The highest known reliable lengths of Muggers is higher than that of Orinoco Crocodiles, Black Caimans or American Crocodiles and with that length, the weight of that Mugger would be much higher as well.
With the reliable data that we do have available, it shows that Muggers have attained larger sizes than all other crocodilians except Nile and Saltwater Crocodiles and this is despite the fact that data about Muggers is so scarce.
It will be good if someone can get all the lengths and body masses available (actually taken, not estimated) to create a database for this animals. I have a few, let's use only adult specimens.
If you mean literally all lengths and weights then there are many lengths and weights available of saltwater crocodiles and maybe for Nile Crocodiles as well but for other species, it’s very scare. I’ll look for it.
And if you mean the maximum reliably recorded lengths and weights for species then lengths are available but weights are not.
For the maximum lengths, we have 617cm Saltwater Crocodile and 563cm Mugger and a 655cm Gharial (interestingly, that specimen was found in my hometown) that’s it. For other crocodilian species, we have no truly reliable records of specimens exceeding 5 metres but perhaps there is a record of a Nile Crocodile which I’ll have to look around for.
But we must remember that there will be a huge difference between length and size because a 5 metre Orinoco Crocodile will not even come close to a 5 metre Mugger in terms of weight because of very different morphologies.
(05-10-2022, 09:14 PM)LonePredator Wrote: If you mean literally all lengths and weights then there are many lengths and weights available of saltwater crocodiles and maybe for Nile Crocodiles as well but for other species, it’s very scare. I’ll look for it.
And if you mean the maximum reliably recorded lengths and weights for species then lengths are available but weights are not.
For the maximum lengths, we have 617cm Saltwater Crocodile and 563cm Mugger and a 655cm Gharial (interestingly, that specimen was found in my hometown) that’s it. For other crocodilian species, we have no truly reliable records of specimens exceeding 5 metres but perhaps there is a record of a Nile Crocodile which I’ll have to look around for.
But we must remember that there will be a huge difference between length and size because a 5 metre Orinoco Crocodile will not even come close to a 5 metre Mugger in terms of weight because of very different morphologies.
Yes, I mean it. Literally every single record avaialble, captive or wild, only adults. I know that it sounds like a titanic work, maybe even silly, but I do it with all tiger subspecies and while it took years for me, I think that it will be a good work. I guess that no one, ever, has done this. We can make history with a project like that, but who is going to make it? That is the question now.
By the way, very interesting that your hometown was the home of the largest gharial!
(05-10-2022, 09:14 PM)LonePredator Wrote: If you mean literally all lengths and weights then there are many lengths and weights available of saltwater crocodiles and maybe for Nile Crocodiles as well but for other species, it’s very scare. I’ll look for it.
And if you mean the maximum reliably recorded lengths and weights for species then lengths are available but weights are not.
For the maximum lengths, we have 617cm Saltwater Crocodile and 563cm Mugger and a 655cm Gharial (interestingly, that specimen was found in my hometown) that’s it. For other crocodilian species, we have no truly reliable records of specimens exceeding 5 metres but perhaps there is a record of a Nile Crocodile which I’ll have to look around for.
But we must remember that there will be a huge difference between length and size because a 5 metre Orinoco Crocodile will not even come close to a 5 metre Mugger in terms of weight because of very different morphologies.
Yes, I mean it. Literally every single record avaialble, captive or wild, only adults. I know that it sounds like a titanic work, maybe even silly, but I do it with all tiger subspecies and while it took years for me, I think that it will be a good work. I guess that no one, ever, has done this. We can make history with a project like that, but who is going to make it? That is the question now.
By the way, very interesting that your hometown was the home of the largest gharial!
Okay! I’ll look around for everything I can find about this. It will be interesting.
05-22-2022, 02:39 PM( This post was last modified: 05-22-2022, 06:34 PM by LonePredator )
@GuateGojira Hello Guate, I was looking at your size data about Ussuri Brown Bears and Yellowstone Grizzlies and I noticed something interesting. I wanted to ask you which sample the length and height of the Grizzly been taken from? The 193kg sample or 245kg sample? And which one for the Ussuri Brown Bear?
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
As you can see, the length and height of the Ussuri Brown Bear outsizes the inland Grizzly by a huge margin but the weights of both are still so similar. How could this be possible? Is it because of different samples for weights and measurements or is it due to food shortage for the Ussuri Bears because the Ussuri Bear measurement also shows a low chest girth in relation to its length and height.
With the length and height the Ussuri Bear has, it could most likely achieve very high weights such as 300-350kg given the right conditions and I think this is perhaps the same weight as the average Kodiak or Alaskan Peninsula Bear.
One more interesting thing to note is that ursids and felids do not burn muscle mass like humans do due to lower amounts of myostatin, dense and thick bones and a combination of other factors. Even after hibernation when Bears lose a lot of weight, the loss of muscle mass in Bears is still almost negligible.
My point here is that the Ussuri Bear should have a lot more strength than the inland Grizzly since the Ussuri Bears may not have as much fat but it would still retain most of its muscle which would give it that level of strength while a lot of the inland Grizzly’s weight is still made up of fat. The Ussuri Brown Bear could likely have the level of strength only slightly less than the giant Alaskan Peninsula and Kodiak Bears.
Even the pictures you have used in the comparison shows a giant Ussuri Bear with huge skull and overall body dimensions but it looks like it’s starving while the Grizzly is small in overall dimensions but looks quite fat which suggests that the overall absolute muscle mass in the Ussuri Brown Bear should be much much higher than the Grizzly.
(05-22-2022, 02:39 PM)LonePredator Wrote: @GuateGojira Hello Guate, I was looking at your size data about Ussuri Brown Bears and Yellowstone Grizzlies and I noticed something interesting. I wanted to ask you which sample the length and height of the Grizzly been taken from? The 193kg sample or 245kg sample? And which one for the Ussuri Brown Bear?
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
As you can see, the length and height of the Ussuri Brown Bear outsizes the inland Grizzly by a huge margin but the weights of both are still so similar. How could this be possible? Is it because of different samples for weights and measurements or is it due to food shortage for the Ussuri Bears because the Ussuri Bear measurement also shows a low chest girth in relation to its length and height.
With the length and height the Ussuri Bear has, it could most likely achieve very high weights such as 300-350kg given the right conditions and I think this is perhaps the same weight as the average Kodiak or Alaskan Peninsula Bear.
One more interesting thing to note is that ursids and felids do not burn muscle mass like humans do due to lower amounts of myostatin, dense and thick bones and a combination of other factors. Even after hibernation when Bears lose a lot of weight, the loss of muscle mass in Bears is still almost negligible.
My point here is that the Ussuri Bear should have a lot more strength than the inland Grizzly since the Ussuri Bears may not have as much fat but it would still retain most of its muscle which would give it that level of strength while a lot of the inland Grizzly’s weight is still made up of fat. The Ussuri Brown Bear could likely have the level of strength only slightly less than the giant Alaskan Peninsula and Kodiak Bears.
Even the pictures you have used in the comparison shows a giant Ussuri Bear with huge skull and overall body dimensions but it looks like it’s starving while the Grizzly is small in overall dimensions but looks quite fat which suggests that the overall absolute muscle mass in the Ussuri Brown Bear should be much much higher than the Grizzly.
These images are old and outdated, specially the one from the Russian bear, however the one of the American bear is still ok.
About the data of the Grizzly, the source is: Blanchard, 1987. Size and growth patterns of the Yellowstone Grizzly bear. Measurements used in the images are the ones taken in straight line.
About the Russian bear, the data came from an article of S. P. Kucherenko in the 70's, and the article was published in a webpage in 2003. Sadly the webpage is gone, as far I know, but I saved the table with the body measurements:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now, as you can see, the image of the Russian bear is incorrect, as I escalate it like if the bears were measured in straight line, when actually they were certainly taken along the curves. In this case, I made a new image in 2020, with other corrections like the body mass in modern records and I also re-escalated the Amur tiger size in the image. Check it:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Please, check the difference in the escalation, the size is closer to the size of the Grizzly now, which make more sense. About the body mass, I just found pieces of the modern records so I tried to reconstruct the information, however @peter made a good compilation of the especific modern records and the heaviest male was of 363 kg, here are his tables:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Taking the 8 males from this list and the other 2 males captured in 2011 and reported in the document of 2014, the average weight for the male Russian bears in the Sikhote Alina area, in modern records, is of 247.5 kg.
Certainly I need to update the images, and add the figures presente by peter.
