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(04-16-2022, 01:14 AM)Twico5 Wrote: I have seen camera trap images of pumas and jaguars from the highlands in costa rica and these cats are always around the same size. In the Caatinga region in Brazil cougars are bigger than jaguars, as well as certain regions in the Cerrado that have similarly sized jaguars and pumas becasue there they would prey on the same animals.
@Pckts and @Balam, you know more populations of jaguars than I, what do you think about this statement?
"real life as these big cats will never tolerate each other and the jaguar would have kicked out the puma immediatly! "
Here you can see a small female Jaguar compared to a Large Male Couger
"On the right you can see a well sized male puma (Puma concolor) and on the left a small but fully grown adult female jaguar (Panthera onca)! Usually jaguars are bigger than pumas but like humans their size varies between sexes and even between individuals and so that’s why sometimes jaguars tracks are smaller than pumas ones.
BTW, this female jaguar is called Nubosa and I’ve spotted her 20 times in the last 3 years! She looks young because of her small size but she’s at least 7+ years old as she was firstly spotted in 2013 and was already an adult at this time. "
and next you can see the same female jaguar compared to a large male Jaguar.
I made a comparison of the large male jaguar and cougar side by side, I just cant find it right now.
Are you sure that Cougar in the first video is a male? That looks a lot like a female Cougar
(04-16-2022, 12:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Jaguars are heavier in most places where they co-exist, except they co-exist in most of Central and South america where there are more freshwater ecosystems than anywhere else and where there are more freshwater fish and crocodillian species (the very prey jaguars have adapted to hunt) than anywhere else on earth.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author Look at the red areas, these are the regions in which jaguars tend to be really large and pumas, smaller than jaguars. In western mexico there are 0 crocodillian species and very few freshwater ecosystems, it is dry and arid and both jaguars and pumas are hunting the same animals. Here are some hindfoot sizes of jaguars and pumas from there:
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*This image is copyright of its original author Western mexico isnt the only region in which jaguars and pumas are hunting the same prey. I posted a study a while back that had weights of pumas killed in the Pampas region of argentinea. If i recall correctly there were 5 weights given and two of these weights were 107kg and 110kg. The average was over 90 kilograms for all male pumas included in the study. Now, its possible that jaguars here, or in other parts of northern argentinea have a similar or higher average weight. But considering that pumas have to be quite a bit taller and longer than jaguars in order to be the same weight, do you think these jaguars would appear to be bigger in size? No, they wouldn’t. Both jaguars and pumas in northern Argentinea primarily hunt domestic animals such as cattle, horses, sheep. The pantanal on the other hand shouldnt even be brought up anymore if you want to fairly compare jaguar and puma sizes. It is home to around 10 million yacare caiman. There are far less capybara, deer and whatever else pumas are hunting here. The pantanal is also home to some of largest cattle herds in the entire South America. Not to mention pumas here are rare. Yet in the size comparison posted above we see a female puma being close in height to a big male jaguar. All of this should prove that jaguars arent simply larger on their own. Also, regarding interactions between the two species, both have a mutual avoidance of each other.
Completelly dissagree. Water sources has noting to do with the size, is the prey base available what influence the size of these cats. Other thing, paw prints are not a good predictor as we don't know which specific variations may be between the species, after all they are not just "cats" but completelly different species, so the paw size may have another explanation.
About the weights of 107 and 110 kg for pumas, I doubt them for the moment and I will like to see the sources of those figures. The heaviest puma reliably recorded was of 105 kg (Hornocker & Negri, 2010), so those figures should be exceptional, but I will like to check its reliability first.
Definitelly, in every study jaguars are significavely heavier than pumas, the bodies are more massive and the skulls are bigger, there is no comparison.
And I support Pckts on this, jaguar dominate over pumas, no such thing as avoidance and also here in Guatemala pumas are smaller than jaguars and there is a case of a jaguar killing a puma in Belice.
Finally, from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002):
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*This image is copyright of its original author
This studies clearly shows that pumas are smaller than jaguars.
Ofc its due to prey base. My point was that freshwater environments in south and central america have plenty of semi aquatic and reptillian prey.
If you were to remove venezuela and pantanal from those samples the weight for male jags and male pumas would be the same (both around ~65kg). The Venezuelan and pantanal samples are both from floodplain areas. Cattle ranch distribution map:
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Notice how the Llanos and pantanal regions especially have the highest densities. Again these are also jaguar-filled floodplain regions with tons of reptillian and semi-aquatic prey.
Without the pantanal and llanos, cougars are the same size on average and max.
Puma weights from proceedings of the Washington academy of sciences volume 3:
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This is the same as the amazon average for male jags which btw is a really high average weight for amazonian jaguars. Also, in the screenshots you posted the lowest weight for male pumas and male jags was the same. So now tell me, is there really that much of a size difference? Under the same conditions would a jaguar be larger than a puma?
I dont have the pampas sample on me but i will try to find it now
Quote:Without the pantanal and llanos, cougars are the same size on average and max.
Chaco, Cerrado and Atlantic Forest Jaguars will all significantly outsize Pumas as well.
Amazon Jaguars are sloth eaters, they are a much smaller variety. They suffer much more from floods and spend much of their lives in trees, it's just about the prey and habitat they live in. The only Jaguars smaller than them are the Caatinga ones.
It's pretty simple, when both animals are at their apex, the Jaguar is the much larger cat. If a habitat is geared towards one more than the other than that one should do better but in places where they both live, the Jaguar is going to be the superior cat.
For obvious reasons pumas suffer from amazonic floods more than jaguars do. Sloths are a large prey animal for jaguars btw. It is no surprise why pumas here are small. Here are some weights of jaguars from parts of the amazon that flood often:
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Some forests in the amazon stay flooded for up to 4 months each year. Obviously the pumas are suffering more during these months as they arent as specialized in hunting semi-aquatic animals as jaguars are. Jaguars are the stronger cat, idk why youre acting like i said pumas were stronger or better hunters. But see in most of the amazon male pumas are also weighing around 50-60kg. So it really to me seems like were making the size difference between these two cats out to be much more than it is actually is only because in a few regions jags are significantly heavier than pumas. When the vice versa is also common.
In a place where both predators are equally as specialized to the same prey base and enviroment there wouldnt be a significant difference in size between the two species.
Sloths are not large prey, I’m not sure what you’re considering Large. The point of the Amazon was to say why they’re smaller there in comparison. Regardless of where they are, there is only one place where Puma and Jaguar coexist that they are the same size. Everywhere else the Jaguar surpasses the Puma and that is with many different prey items available.
Because your claims seem to bounce from one to another I’m not sure what you’re trying to say but to clear.
Let’s make it simple.
What happens when a cougar gets the best conditions and top of the food chain? *Patagonia*
They reach around 100kg max.
What happens when the Jaguar gets the same?
They reach 140kg+
Amazonian Jaguars vary in size. Most are large and here is their prey base:
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Now of course they don’t have 10 million caiman to prey on and nor do they have huge cattle herds grazing in their territories but they do have tons of reptilian prey. These are animals cougars don’t typically hunt.
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“Sloths”. Throughout most of the Amazon they’re preying on large reptiles
Nw Mexico isn’t the only place where they’re the same size. Peru:
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Pumas in Patagonia are eating cape hares
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If they’re large here then it would only be because of the couple thousand guanacos here as opposed to the many reasons why pantanal Jaguars reach enourmous sizes. Millions of yacare caiman, 3000 cattle ranches in the region, 0 competition, everything else is also on the roster as prey vs puma population that has only 1 wild prey animal over 5kg. It’s true that Patagonian pumas are apex predators, but according to what you’ve been saying about Jaguars being dominant over pumas, jags would be dominant in every part of their range as well. But they’re small in many places. Guess what? Jaguars are apex predators in the cerrado as well, yet you decide to remind me that there are 140kg pantanal Jaguars! Why aren’t we comparing Amazon jag and Patagonian puma sizes? Both are apexes right? Why is it that one apex niche population is smaller than another apex niche population? I think it might have to do with the prey base that the pantanal has!
Several male pumas from this region weighing around 90 kilograms. Don’t most male Jaguars in the pantanal weigh around this much? Even then pantanal Jaguars have a much better prey base. Some of these pumas mainly killed and ate livestock. Jaguars in the pantanal eat everything in their territory and the abundance of livestock as well as their own favored wild prey is much higher. It would be foolish to believe that 100 kilograms is the max weight for male pumas btw. There have been many records from scientific literature of male pumas weighing upwards of 100kg, if you’d like I can post some of them.
Something more on topic; a puma and jaguar from the Chaco region in Argentina. Both are big males but as you can see the jaguar is a lot closer to the camera
An Oncafari biologist states that most of jaguars they study at Caiman Ecological Refuge (where the largest jaguars in the world are found, like Joker and Robusto), very rarely prey on cattle.
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(04-16-2022, 06:27 PM)Twico5 Wrote: Pumas in Patagonia are eating cape hare
About this, read here : https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-cougar-...#pid141952 while European hares definitely make a bulk fo cougar diets in the Patagonia, they are usually hunted by youngsters and females, not adult males.
As you can see from that post adult males hunt primarily guanacos, rheas, and wild horses.
An Oncafari biologist states that most of jaguars they study at Caiman Ecological Refuge (where the largest jaguars in the world are found, like Joker and Robusto), very rarely prey on cattle.
*This image is copyright of its original author
(04-16-2022, 06:27 PM)Twico5 Wrote: Pumas in Patagonia are eating cape hare
About this, read here : https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-cougar-...#pid141952 while European hares definitely make a bulk fo cougar diets in the Patagonia, they are usually hunted by youngsters and females, not adult males.
As you can see from that post adult males hunt primarily guanacos, rheas, and wild horses.
It is very rare for pumas to hunt wild horses. They are dangerous prey and guanacos/hares are a much more frequent prey item. Also, horse-killing pumas get huge. They’re the ones that get upwards of 100kg
“In 44 of those 147 sites we recorded hunting events. In 40 of these sites we found remains of guanacos and rheas, while in the remaining 4 we found remains of wild horses.“ Over the course of 2 years btw. 4 horses (most likely foals), over the course of 2 years, sample size = 1 male puma.
Jaguars in the pantanal also hunt horses btw. Certainly not comparable prey bases still.
Apparently in dry forests where there is sufficient terrestrial prey for both cats, pumas aren’t avoiding Jaguars or at least not any more than they would avoid other pumas.
(04-16-2022, 10:30 PM)Twico5 Wrote: It is very rare for pumas to hunt wild horses. They are dangerous prey and guanacos/hares are a much more frequent prey item. Also, horse-killing pumas get huge. They’re the ones that get upwards of 100kg
Also you said that Pepito had been killed those 4 horses in two years which is false since as the post says they started monitoring his kills in April 2020 to January 2021, that is less than one year
Apparently in dry forests where there is sufficient terrestrial prey for both cats, pumas aren’t avoiding Jaguars or at least not any more than they would avoid other pumas.
Nothing to do with actual encounters. This is strictly based off observations in a certain area during a time of day. On top of that, it’s in a place where Jaguar #s are extremely low. If both are in the same area, Cougars are going to avoid Jaguars. Never once has a Cougar been responsible for a Jaguar injury or death, this isn’t true the other way around.
An Oncafari biologist states that most of jaguars they study at Caiman Ecological Refuge (where the largest jaguars in the world are found, like Joker and Robusto), very rarely prey on cattle.
*This image is copyright of its original author
(04-16-2022, 06:27 PM)Twico5 Wrote: Pumas in Patagonia are eating cape hare
About this, read here : https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-cougar-...#pid141952 while European hares definitely make a bulk fo cougar diets in the Patagonia, they are usually hunted by youngsters and females, not adult males.
As you can see from that post adult males hunt primarily guanacos, rheas, and wild horses.
It is very rare for pumas to hunt wild horses. They are dangerous prey and guanacos/hares are a much more frequent prey item. Also, horse-killing pumas get huge. They’re the ones that get upwards of 100kg
“In 44 of those 147 sites we recorded hunting events. In 40 of these sites we found remains of guanacos and rheas, while in the remaining 4 we found remains of wild horses.“ Over the course of 2 years btw. 4 horses (most likely foals), over the course of 2 years, sample size = 1 male puma.
Jaguars in the pantanal also hunt horses btw. Certainly not comparable prey bases still.
Nowhere are pumas upwards of 100kg. You Are talking about an outlier when mentioning 100kg Puma.
(04-16-2022, 08:36 PM)Twico5 Wrote: Something more on topic; a puma and jaguar from the Chaco region in Argentina. Both are big males but as you can see the jaguar is a lot closer to the camera
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Chaco Jaguars will significantly outsize pumas. It’ll be pretty much as exaggerated a difference as you see in the the Pantanal.
Several male pumas from this region weighing around 90 kilograms. Don’t most male Jaguars in the pantanal weigh around this much? Even then pantanal Jaguars have a much better prey base. Some of these pumas mainly killed and ate livestock. Jaguars in the pantanal eat everything in their territory and the abundance of livestock as well as their own favored wild prey is much higher. It would be foolish to believe that 100 kilograms is the max weight for male pumas btw. There have been many records from scientific literature of male pumas weighing upwards of 100kg, if you’d like I can post some of them.
90kg is small for a male Pantanal Jaguar, 17kg less than average which includes young or injured weights.
On top of that, 90kg is a top tier weight for cougars not something that occurs often while 90kg is a weight reached fairly often for female Pantanal Jaguars, let alone the males.
Also you need to understand Jaguar territory in the Pantanal better. At least in the north where the largest jaguars live. They don’t have a set territory because the floods will wash away islands that are there one year then gone the next. The north as a whole houses the largest density of adult Jaguars. Only the strongest survive there. It’s the reason why very rarely will you see cubs, the competition is too high, females will take their cubs to somewhere safer even though the prey base is so high, the threat isn’t worth it. This is also why you’ll almost never see Cougars there, it has nothing to do with the type of prey, it’s because the big Jaguars will kill them.
(04-16-2022, 01:14 AM)Twico5 Wrote: I have seen camera trap images of pumas and jaguars from the highlands in costa rica and these cats are always around the same size. In the Caatinga region in Brazil cougars are bigger than jaguars, as well as certain regions in the Cerrado that have similarly sized jaguars and pumas becasue there they would prey on the same animals.
@Pckts and @Balam, you know more populations of jaguars than I, what do you think about this statement?
"real life as these big cats will never tolerate each other and the jaguar would have kicked out the puma immediatly! "
Here you can see a small female Jaguar compared to a Large Male Couger
"On the right you can see a well sized male puma (Puma concolor) and on the left a small but fully grown adult female jaguar (Panthera onca)! Usually jaguars are bigger than pumas but like humans their size varies between sexes and even between individuals and so that’s why sometimes jaguars tracks are smaller than pumas ones.
BTW, this female jaguar is called Nubosa and I’ve spotted her 20 times in the last 3 years! She looks young because of her small size but she’s at least 7+ years old as she was firstly spotted in 2013 and was already an adult at this time. "
and next you can see the same female jaguar compared to a large male Jaguar.
I made a comparison of the large male jaguar and cougar side by side, I just cant find it right now.
Are you sure that Cougar in the first video is a male? That looks a lot like a female Cougar
Not sure about the first video but that’s a sub adult Male Jaguar btw. The 2nd and third images are a large male cougar though which would be outsized by the small female Jaguar and significantly outsized by the male Jaguar.
This is in Costa Rica where they don’t hunt caiman nor do they reach their peak size.
(04-16-2022, 08:36 PM)Twico5 Wrote: Something more on topic; a puma and jaguar from the Chaco region in Argentina. Both are big males but as you can see the jaguar is a lot closer to the camera
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Chaco Jaguars will significantly outsize pumas. It’ll be pretty much as exaggerated a difference as you see in the the Pantanal.
Not even close. Male jag and male cougar from the same region:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This photo was posted before but the person who posted it i believe claimed the jaguar was a female. Except in another frame you can see the its genatalia. Big male jaguar and male cougar (definitely not close to every other male cougar ive seen from this region).
The jag in the first image i posted is a big male, an above avg sized individual
