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Size comparisons
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Liupaard, if you feel insulted from the fact that scientific team of Panthera.org has written as a maximal weight 90 kg, not 115 you can complain...
 Call them and ask angrily: "guys why you don't suggest 115 kg a reliable weight why I find it reliable?.."  Maybe be they will agree with you and will make a change... But until then I trust them.Is obvious that something is not Ok with such a weight, its far too much from the normal body mass of this relatively small animal and digit 115 kg contradict the common sense. I agree with you that animals from the rain forests of West Africa should be a bit larger than these from the African savannah where the lion is the apex predator. In same time Central Africans can not be larger than inhabiting cold mountains Persians because this contradict the Bergman's rule, which is a universal law of the zoogeography. Read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann%27s_rule  (05-02-2019, 07:15 PM)Wolverine Wrote: Liupaard, if you feel insulted from the fact that scientific team of Panthera.org has written as a maximal weight 90 kg, not 115 you can complain... I never felt insulted so no worries. 90kg is not the magical barrier for leopards, I think everybody knows that. As for the 115kg Persian leopard; yes the number is odd but remember it's from a scientific reasearch aswell. Even if the number is incorrect (which I think is), that male will still be in the 90kg+ range. No way they're gonna estimate that wrong.  *This image is copyright of its original author A young Persian male already weighed 64kg (source), that's like the average weight for South African adult males. What makes you think they can't weigh over 90kg?  (05-02-2019, 10:48 PM)Sanju Wrote:(05-02-2019, 10:40 PM)Luipaard Wrote: I never felt insulted so no worries.Don't know why but I'm feeling sad for your insult. You don't have to mate, I'm fine haha. It just feels like some people here hate the fact that some particular subspecies of leopard can match jaguars. They're offended becouse jaguars are "more robust" and "pound for pound the strongest". Leopards on the other hand, are "slender" and "less powerful". Truth is, they overlap in everything. Jaguars are just the bigger cat overall, I've said that multiple times.
I mean, if this particular Gabonese leopard doesn't match a jaguar, then I don't know really.
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author But hey, that's probably an exceptional leopard... (05-02-2019, 11:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: fact that some particular subspecies of leopard can match jaguars.Yeah but not big jags above 120kg to more than 150 kg. Biggest leopards can only match with AVG jags upto 120 kg though. :) Yeah you are right Jag is 3rd biggest cat.  I love survival king-the leopard the same as Jag.
(05-02-2019, 11:12 PM)Sanju Wrote:(05-02-2019, 11:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: fact that some particular subspecies of leopard can match jaguars.Yeah but not big jags above 120kg to more than 150 kg. Biggest leopards can only match with AVG jags upto 120 kg though. :) Yeah you are right Jag is 3rd biggest cat. That's true, no leopard can match a large male jaguar from the Pantanal region or Llanos. But certain large leopards can rival an average jaguar from certain regions. Hence that's why I keep saying that they overlap and that jaguars are bigger overall. Here's something interesting aswell  *This image is copyright of its original author
(05-03-2019, 10:11 AM)Sanju Wrote: @ Well I got the chart from another forum. I could share the link but the forum itself is archived so unavailable for non-members. I'll try to find the source of the chart. I never said it was a scientific fact, just an interesting chart...
As for the (what I call) '90kg barrier', here are some records of the more heavier leopards (excluding estimated leopards, like the 97kg Vin Diesel male leopard for example):
-96 kg. Valencia, Namibia [heaviest ever recorded in the wild] (Brain, 1981; Taylor et al., 1999) -92.5 kg. Mount Kenya, Kenya [Hunted] (Mellon 1995; Scott & Scott, 2006 [Spanish edition]). -90 kg. Kruger NP [Hunted] (Fourie, 1992). -91 kg. Iran (Iranian Cheetah Society, 2010). We also have that chart, where 2 males were in the 80-85kg range, 1 was in the 85-90kg range, and 3 were in the 90-95kg range. So yeah, there is no such thing as a 90kg maximum weight for leopards. Too bad there's no info regarding Central African leopards their weight. I assume they'll do even better based on their skull measurements compared to other subspecies.
From A leopard in the predynastic elite cemetery HK6 at Hierakonpolis, Egypt (Wim van Neer)
"A description is given of the skeleton of a large felid that was discovered in the Predynastic elite cemetery HK6 at Hierakonpolis, Upper Egypt. Because the size of the animal falls in the zone of overlap between large, male, leopards and small, female, lions, a straightforward iden-tification could not be made on the basis of individual measurements. The osteometrical and morphological analysis of numerous modern specimens of both species indicates that the Hierakonpolis individual is a large, male, leopard. This is the first confirmed example of this species at the site and it is the only intentional interment of a leopard known from Predynas-tic Egypt. Although the leopard, and its pelt, features in the art of Late Predynastic and Early Dynasty Egypt, this animal must have been rare in Upper Egypt. The large size of the indi-vidual buried in its own tomb at HK6 can be considered a reflection of the special status of the people interred in this cemetery. The Egyptian archaeozoological record for this species is reviewed, and comparison with felid remains associated with the tomb of a Dynasty 1 king at Abydos suggests that animals originally identified as lions may in fact be leopards." Fig. 4. Dorsal view of the skull and the first three cervical vertebrae, and lateral view of the left mandible.  *This image is copyright of its original author Fig. 5. Detail of the foot bones in the centre of Figure 3. Notice the preserved hair (lower left near one of the metapodials) and horny claws.  *This image is copyright of its original author "The measurements that could be taken on the skull, mandible and the postcranial bones are given in Table 1 and Table 2 . At first glance, the large felid from Tomb 50 may seem too large for a leopard ( Panthera pardus ). Its skull dimensions are very large compared to the specimen depicted in Osborn and Helmy, which has a condylobasal length of approxi-mately 173 mm. In the HK6 specimen this distance measures 256 mm, which falls in the lower range of lions ( Panthera leo ) from Sudan. It also appears that the measurements of the HK6 postcranial bones are much larger than those given for leopard by Walker. More-over, the size of these felid bones is almost identical to those that author gave for lion. However, caution is needed since both lion and leopard have a wide geographical distribu-tion and display significant variation in their sizes. Pocock mentions that the leopards from Egypt and Sudan are poorly known, but that they are apparently large and exhibit much variation in size. The large size variation in lions is illustrated by Mazak. In order to document the extent of the variation and the degree of possible size overlap between the two species, we measured museum specimens for comparison ( Fig. 9 ). Modern skulls of 15 African leopards and African lions were investigated at the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences (Brussels, Belgium) and at the Royal Museum of Central Africa (Tervuren, Belgium). A selection was made, without taking into account the prove-nance, of the largest leopards and the smallest lions because it was felt that the HK6 speci-men was in the overlap zone of both species. The sex of the museum specimens was not always indicated on the labels, but all retained leopards of known sex were male and all such lions were female. This means that the presented osteometrical data do not document the full variation of the species in Africa." Fig. 9. Variation of skull (upper pane) and mandible (lower pane) measurements in a selection of modern large leopards (n=15) and small lions (n=14) from Africa. The numbers in brackets are those given by von den Driesch (1976) to the various measuring distances. The position of the HK6 specimen is indicated with a small vertical bar. Because only the largest leopards and the smallest lions were retained for analysis, the lower end of the bars for the leopard and the upper end for the lion are shown as indistinct.  *This image is copyright of its original author "All the foregoing metrical information indicates that the large felid can be identified as a large, male, leopard. Criteria for the distinction of leopard and lion on the basis of their dentition have been described by Kabitzsch. Although it was stated that the teeth of lion are in general heavier than those of leopard, this was not useful for our material. However, the morphological criteria described for the upper P4 confirm the identification of leopard. The deuterocone of the HK6 felid ( Fig. 11 ) is more developed and more separated from the rest of the tooth compared to that of lion. Another morphological characteristic of the HK6 specimen is the general shape of the neurocranium. It has the more elongate appear-ance typically seen in leopard, but this cannot adequately be expressed by the measure-ments traditionally taken.The largest leopard skull (condylobasal length 264 mm) that was available in the refer-ence collections (register number IRSNB-KBIN 8640) showed abnormal tooth wear similar to that observed in the HK6 specimen." Fig. 10. Index of the zygomatic breadth/breadth of postorbital constriction versus the condylobasal length (upper pane) and for the same index versus the total length of the skull (lower pane). Indi-cated are the indices of the larger leopards and the smallest lions from the RBINS and RMCA reference collections, as well as those of the Barbary lions mentioned in Mazak (1970) and the Hierakonpolis specimen.  *This image is copyright of its original author "In Table 4 the measurements of this adult individual and a single measurement from the young male are compared to those of the HK6 leopard and also to the size variation seen in a series of modern female lions. It appears that the measurements of the femur and the astragalus from Abydos are comparable to those of the leopard from HK6, but the scapula and all four metapodials from Abydos are much smaller. Moreover, all the measurable bones from Abydos fall below the mini-mum sizes seen in the modern female lion. All these osteometric data strongly suggest that the Abydos finds may need to be re-identified as leopard."  *This image is copyright of its original author "The leopard from Tomb 50 adds a new wild species to the array of animals buried in the elite cemetery at Hierakonpolis. Like many of the other wild species recorded thus far at HK6, the leopard is an animal that was not easily obtained. Leopard no doubt occurred in Upper Egypt at the time, but it must have required a great deal of effort, bravery and skill to trap it alive and to keep it in a captive state. The rarity of the species, and in particular the extremely large size of the individual, must have added to its value in terms of express-ing power, prestige and status." "Iconographic evidence of felids of any type from around the time the HK6 leopard was sacrificed ( c . Naqada IC–IIB period) is extremely rare. It is limited to a number of sche-matic incised marks on pots and palettes, and seven palettes with long curving tails previ-ously identified as hippopotami. However, with the onset of the state formation process in the Naqada IICD period, large felids, and particularly the lion, become important con-stituents of the iconography of power and control, eventually taking on strong royal con-notations. While most depictions can be identified as lions, based on their mane, ambigu-ity surrounds some of the large cats portrayed in the rows of animals carved on the ivory knife handles and other elite objects of the Late Predynastic. Owing to the small size of the depictions, the condition of the artefact and the potential that additional information was provided in paint, it is difficult to determine whether leopard or lioness was intended. Nevertheless, unquestionable representations of leopard occur on the Gebel el-Tarif knife handle , the golden handle of the Sayala Mace ( Fig. 12 ) and the famous Two-Dog Pal-ette found at Hierakonpolis, along with several carved ivories from the temple deposit at the same site. Some of the most prestigious objects of the Terminal Predynastic show that the hunting prowess of this species was recognised and, although often shown somewhat smaller and lighter than the lion, the leopard was accorded status among the most powerful carnivores" "Perhaps more indicative of the special significance of the leopard is its distinctive pelt. It is worn by and offered (?) to the victor of the combat on the Painted Tomb from Hiera-konpolis dated to Naqada IIC. It appears again as the apparel of the figures of high social status or power, though not the king, on the Battlefield and Narmer Palettes. It is impos-sible to know if the skin already signified the heir apparent, as it will later in the Dynastic period when donned by the sem priests (usually the eldest son of the deceased) during the funerary ritual, but its association with high status officials in the Early Dynastic period and possibly much earlier is clear. Aside from its pelt, which will remain an important part of religious attire, in Dynastic times depictions of the animal itself are relatively infrequent. Most notable are the scenes from the Old Kingdom showing it being transported in a cage along with other species, including a lion, captured during a hunting expedition, and others where the animals have apparently been tamed and sometimes held on a leash. In the Middle Kingdom the cap-ture of leopards seems to have continued, apparently for the purpose of placing them in enclosed game parks maintained by the elite. In addition to hunting them, the sport also included staged cat fights according to a unique, though sadly mutilated, scene in the tomb of Niankh-Pepy at Hierakonpolis: two leopards (clearly spotted) attack a lion while the tomb owner and his entourage of Nubian bowmen look on from the safety of the hunting blinds.  *This image is copyright of its original author
(05-02-2019, 11:00 PM)Luipaard Wrote: some particular subspecies of leopard can match jaguars.Some particular populations of jaguars can also match some Sumatran tigers but that doesn't mean that the jaguar is equal to the tiger... Also world records for domestic Tom cats (up to 20 kg) could match some specimens of female Arabian leopards which could wait 15-16 kg but that doesn't mean that the Tom cat in the garden of my grand mother is equal to leopard... The truth is that jaguar is by far larger cat than leopard. 
Jags and a Record Leopard in the same position
 *This image is copyright of its original author 140kg  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author 150kg VS  *This image is copyright of its original author #6 Juan Renedo Sedano took this leopard in 1982 in the Republic of South Africa. It measures 18 10/16″. "Larger score than the highest Verified DR Congo Leopard" VS A modest sized Jag for comparison  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Multiple mounted tiger heads from the Van Ingen studio adorn the wall of an Indian palace. The Maharajha of Kotah placed a single order for 20 tiger heads in 1932.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author sunderbaan tigers from west bengal state India,they are famouse maneaters |
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