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04-25-2019, 11:04 AM( This post was last modified: 04-25-2019, 11:05 AM by Luipaard )
(04-25-2019, 06:26 AM)Styx38 Wrote:
(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:
From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)
Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.
From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)
*This image is copyright of its original author
They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)
It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.
Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.
The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores.
Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.
Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.
For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:
at 0:09, Rob mentions:
Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make
^ This is the larger kill that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.
Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.
On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor.
This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.
I agree with you. Too bad others ignore every single fact:
Fact: Leopards from Central Africa have the largest skulls.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar).
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fact: These leopards are far more robust than any other African leopard. Even researchers from Panthera noticed that
Quote:Hi, my name is Jo and I am one of Panthera's research technicians in South Africa. What an excellent question! I too have noticed that the Gabon leopards are much larger and appear stockier too, but I did not know what the difference measured out to be. I sent your question to our researchers in central and western Africa to see if they had any insight. Our chat group had a great discussion on the topic and some photos of "beasty" leopard males were shared. It does not sound like anyone in Panthera has done much research into the weight of leopards in the equatorial region. However, to gather weight information on live leopards, it requires an immobilisation by a veterinarian, which is a risky and stressful procedure for the leopard. Unless there is another activity such as removal of a snare or a collaring for monitoring (which we really try not do unless absolutely necessary for leopards), than just gathering weight information is not justifiable for a procedure with that level of risk. Overall, I think it is very interesting and something cool to note. Thank you so much for your question! Cheers, Jo
Fact: Their main prey is far more impressive than other African leopards (Red river hogs v impala's)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fact: photographic material show us that these are indeed far more impressive than any other leopard. Huge South African males like Camp pan, Vin Diesel or Anderson look mediocre compared to these males
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Not only does the last one look like a jaguar he looks like a very impressive jaguar.
It's also worth noting that almost all my info comes from a person who helped Xavier Hubert individualize the leopards in Gabon.
Some will say I repeat myself, but it's those persons who are being stubborn and don't want to accept these facts.
(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:
From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)
Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.
From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)
*This image is copyright of its original author
They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)
It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.
Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.
The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores.
Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.
Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.
For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:
at 0:09, Rob mentions:
Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make
^ This is the larger kill that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.
Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.
On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor.
This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.
I agree with you. Too bad others ignore every single fact:
Fact: Leopards from Central Africa have the largest skulls.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar).
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fact: These leopards are far more robust than any other African leopard. Even researchers from Panthera noticed that
Quote:Hi, my name is Jo and I am one of Panthera's research technicians in South Africa. What an excellent question! I too have noticed that the Gabon leopards are much larger and appear stockier too, but I did not know what the difference measured out to be. I sent your question to our researchers in central and western Africa to see if they had any insight. Our chat group had a great discussion on the topic and some photos of "beasty" leopard males were shared. It does not sound like anyone in Panthera has done much research into the weight of leopards in the equatorial region. However, to gather weight information on live leopards, it requires an immobilisation by a veterinarian, which is a risky and stressful procedure for the leopard. Unless there is another activity such as removal of a snare or a collaring for monitoring (which we really try not do unless absolutely necessary for leopards), than just gathering weight information is not justifiable for a procedure with that level of risk. Overall, I think it is very interesting and something cool to note. Thank you so much for your question! Cheers, Jo
Fact: Their main prey is far more impressive than other African leopards (Red river hogs v impala's)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fact: photographic material show us that these are indeed far more impressive than any other leopard. Huge South African males like Camp pan, Vin Diesel or Anderson look mediocre compared to these males
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Not only does the last one look like a jaguar he looks like a very impressive jaguar.
It's also worth noting that almost all my info comes from a person who helped Xavier Hubert individualize the leopards in Gabon.
Some will say I repeat myself, but it's those persons who are being stubborn and don't want to accept these facts.
Quote: "The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar)."
From which study is that average for leopards? Or which charts did you use to calculate that? And same about jaguars, which study for those measurements or which charts did you use?
(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:
From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)
Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.
From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)
*This image is copyright of its original author
They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)
It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.
Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.
The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores.
Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.
Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.
For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:
at 0:09, Rob mentions:
Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make
^ This is the larger kill that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.
Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.
On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor.
This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.
I agree with you. Too bad others ignore every single fact:
Fact: Leopards from Central Africa have the largest skulls.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar).
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fact: These leopards are far more robust than any other African leopard. Even researchers from Panthera noticed that
Quote:Hi, my name is Jo and I am one of Panthera's research technicians in South Africa. What an excellent question! I too have noticed that the Gabon leopards are much larger and appear stockier too, but I did not know what the difference measured out to be. I sent your question to our researchers in central and western Africa to see if they had any insight. Our chat group had a great discussion on the topic and some photos of "beasty" leopard males were shared. It does not sound like anyone in Panthera has done much research into the weight of leopards in the equatorial region. However, to gather weight information on live leopards, it requires an immobilisation by a veterinarian, which is a risky and stressful procedure for the leopard. Unless there is another activity such as removal of a snare or a collaring for monitoring (which we really try not do unless absolutely necessary for leopards), than just gathering weight information is not justifiable for a procedure with that level of risk. Overall, I think it is very interesting and something cool to note. Thank you so much for your question! Cheers, Jo
Fact: Their main prey is far more impressive than other African leopards (Red river hogs v impala's)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fact: photographic material show us that these are indeed far more impressive than any other leopard. Huge South African males like Camp pan, Vin Diesel or Anderson look mediocre compared to these males
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Not only does the last one look like a jaguar he looks like a very impressive jaguar.
It's also worth noting that almost all my info comes from a person who helped Xavier Hubert individualize the leopards in Gabon.
Some will say I repeat myself, but it's those persons who are being stubborn and don't want to accept these facts.
Here some photos of male leopard from Gabon. Nothing special there, when comparing to other leopards.
04-25-2019, 12:04 PM( This post was last modified: 04-25-2019, 12:12 PM by ShadowEdit Reason: adding video
)
Male leopard from Gabon, not looking like a jaguar when looking at body, I think. But a fine and handsome male leopard nevertheless.
I hope, that we could stop now sharing same 2-4 photos of some exceptional individual and focus to look if there is some real and valid information from animal experts.... Some photo from right angle and distance can make even mediocre leopard to look like a giant. For instance this leopard in this video would be easy to make look like much more robust than it is if taking a photo from right angle.
Another nice looking male, but still "normal leopard" from Gabon.
One more video. Something to consider for people who are looking male leopards which look like to be huge in photos taken from side. I have noticed, that robust looking males have some loose skin underside neck and also under body. So if photo is taken from right angle and head of leopard is downwards, it makes neck and body of leopard look like thicker than it is in reality.
In this video that male leopard has robust head, but look at body when it moves there. Not at all that robust anymore, when you can see body lengthwise. Well, of course a very nice looking leopard, but comparable to a jaguar what comes to body overall in robustness?
In this video captive jaguar, but look at that head. That is what I mean, when I am talking about overall measurements.
But now after this if there is something about leopards and jaguars, I continue in size comparisons. What comes to rainfores leopards in Gabon, I would love to see some information about average weights and skull sizes... not anymore same charts about biggest individuals worldwide or some average measurements without sources.
04-25-2019, 01:15 PM( This post was last modified: 04-25-2019, 01:29 PM by Luipaard )
(04-25-2019, 11:21 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(04-25-2019, 11:04 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(04-25-2019, 06:26 AM)Styx38 Wrote:
(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:
From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)
Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.
From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)
*This image is copyright of its original author
They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)
It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.
Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.
The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores.
Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.
Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.
For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:
at 0:09, Rob mentions:
Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make
^ This is the larger kill that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.
Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.
On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor.
This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.
I agree with you. Too bad others ignore every single fact:
Fact: Leopards from Central Africa have the largest skulls.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar).
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fact: These leopards are far more robust than any other African leopard. Even researchers from Panthera noticed that
Quote:Hi, my name is Jo and I am one of Panthera's research technicians in South Africa. What an excellent question! I too have noticed that the Gabon leopards are much larger and appear stockier too, but I did not know what the difference measured out to be. I sent your question to our researchers in central and western Africa to see if they had any insight. Our chat group had a great discussion on the topic and some photos of "beasty" leopard males were shared. It does not sound like anyone in Panthera has done much research into the weight of leopards in the equatorial region. However, to gather weight information on live leopards, it requires an immobilisation by a veterinarian, which is a risky and stressful procedure for the leopard. Unless there is another activity such as removal of a snare or a collaring for monitoring (which we really try not do unless absolutely necessary for leopards), than just gathering weight information is not justifiable for a procedure with that level of risk. Overall, I think it is very interesting and something cool to note. Thank you so much for your question! Cheers, Jo
Fact: Their main prey is far more impressive than other African leopards (Red river hogs v impala's)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fact: photographic material show us that these are indeed far more impressive than any other leopard. Huge South African males like Camp pan, Vin Diesel or Anderson look mediocre compared to these males
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Not only does the last one look like a jaguar he looks like a very impressive jaguar.
It's also worth noting that almost all my info comes from a person who helped Xavier Hubert individualize the leopards in Gabon.
Some will say I repeat myself, but it's those persons who are being stubborn and don't want to accept these facts.
Quote: "The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar)."
From which study is that average for leopards? Or which charts did you use to calculate that? And same about jaguars, which study for those measurements or which charts did you use?
All my info comes from the British zoologist, R.I. Pocock for leopards, and professional hunter Tony Almeida for jaguars. But that doesn't seem to matter since everything I post seems to be false to you.
Here are the tables regarding the leopards; The average skull length for 22 adult males was 254.2mm and for 18 females 193.4mm.
This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.
04-26-2019, 03:51 PM( This post was last modified: 06-12-2019, 11:05 AM by Luipaard )
(04-26-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.
He sure doesn't like to exaggerate, that's an understatement...
They're talking about "fair average specimen" weighing 152 pounds (68kg). Here's his opinion:
"This sounds like a big leopard to me. I haven't weighed many leopards but I have weighed dozens of deer and can usually guess an animal's weight fairly well. I don't think I have even seen a leopard that would weigh much over 150 pounds. I have heard of 185-pound leopards but they must be rare."
"A good big male lion will weigh around 400 pounds; an exceptional one may go 500. As we have seen, it takes a big leopard to weigh 150, some weigh less than 100"
Most experts will agree skull measurements are among the most reliable measures of size. Pocock studied a large number of leopard skulls from across Africa and India, the largest skulls he measured were all from the Congo Basin region. He studied 3 adult male skulls from Gabon specifically, each of which was larger than any he had seen from east or southern Africa.
Peter TurnBull Kemp, whose book, "The Leopard" 1967 is widely cited in literature relating to leopards had experience all over Africa as a game warden. Despite spending most of his time in southern Africa, the largest leopard he ever saw was from Cameroon (same general area as Gabon). He mentions several times in his book that leopard from the equatorial forests of Africa are particularly impressive.
04-26-2019, 09:59 PM( This post was last modified: 04-26-2019, 10:08 PM by Shadow )
(04-26-2019, 03:51 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(04-26-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.
He sure doesn't like to exaggerate, that's an understatement...
They're talking about "fair average specimen" weighing 152 pounds (68kg). Here's his opinion:
"This sounds like a big leopard to me. I haven't weighed many leopards but I have weighed dozens of deer and can usually guess an animal's weight fairly well. I don't think I have even seen a leopard that would weigh much over 150 pounds. I have heard of 185-pound leopards but they must be rare."
"A good big male lion will weigh around 400 pounds; an exceptional one may go 500. As we have seen, it takes a big leopard to weigh 150, some weigh less than 100"
Yeah, sorry but that's not accurrate accurate at all.
Point in that text was, that experienced hunter wasn´t so impressed, that there would be some leopard like almost a different animal compared to others. Another point was, that he had heard rumors about some big ones, but not seen one. I will take some time to look closer a bit too :) Just for curiosity if there would be something solid or some expert opinion claiming, that rainforest leopards would be considerably bigger than what is quite usually thought so far. I haven´t seen such information yet. 150 pounds leopard is actually quite big, about 70 kg. 185 pounds leopard is then again huge. I don´t know how that is an understatement when it is quite good in line with information which is usually said about leopards. It is difficult to see a reason why this man wouldn´t say what he thinks. Usually hunters are suspected about exaggerations and they take photos in a way making animals look as big as possible.
One addition to clear up a bit. I am not saying, that rainforest leopards couldn´t be bigger than leopards on some other area, it can be so. But are they really and if so, questions is also, that how much. Are we talking about slight differences, quite clear or really big differences. With current information it feels too early to make some big conclusions about some big differences.
When someone wants to convince others about something, which looks like to be quite different from things which are so far considered to be... should I say "common knowledge", then criticism will be there. That is just as it is, this isn´t first or last debate here. And that is good, many times in these debates everyone notices something new and new points of views. I think, that you have a point in what you say even though I am not sure how big that point is really. But hopefully that is found out after some time :)
(04-26-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.
04-27-2019, 01:38 AM( This post was last modified: 04-27-2019, 01:43 AM by Shadow )
(04-27-2019, 01:03 AM)Styx38 Wrote:
(04-26-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.
The hunter was mostly in the Savannas of Tanzania and Kenya, rather than the jungles of Gabon and other parts of Central Africa.
The jungle Leopards he mentioned were actually in Central India. At least he slightly admitted about the skull size to overall size comparison:
Quote:The big male leopard shot by Gates in Chad had then the second largest skull ever recorded and as leopards go it was an enormous animal
There are rainforests also in Tanzania. And back then 1959 most probably more than today. So when he talks about jungle leopards and about one he shot, where did you find savannah to that part? He mentioned Dunbar in India and then tells about the one leopard he shot in Tanzania. I understood, that he meant leopard in jungle/rainforest or do you have other information? Of course text leaves it open and it could be either way. So maybe you meant, that it is not sure where he shot it?
