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Rainforest Leopards
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 (06-15-2019, 09:22 AM)Styx38 Wrote:(06-14-2019, 06:48 AM)ShereKhan Wrote:(06-14-2019, 03:13 AM)Styx38 Wrote:(06-14-2019, 03:00 AM)Pckts Wrote: Forest elephants are the smallest elephant subspecies and an infant killed by the same technique that Leopards use on warthogs wouldn't be the size of a forest buffalo, even if forest buffaloes are small as well. There are times? Cape buffalo make up some prides MAJORITY of their diet. Nobody is disputing the fact they are big and dangerous. Doesn't mean lions don't kill them. Regularly and often. 
@Shadow
You are right about the weights at that age. Elephant calves exceed 200 kg within these years, but these seemed to be captive specimens. That being said, leopards have killed elephant calves before. Juvenile elephants range in size depending on age. Not to mention their boldness increases with age.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(06-16-2019, 02:22 AM)Styx38 Wrote: @Shadow I have no doubt, that leopards have killed elephant calves. In that study they said, that calf was 8-10 month old, that young elephant calf is naturally in big trouble if leopard attacks. Then again if about 150-200 kg, it can be comparable with forest buffalo. If big bulls are almost 400 kg, it is natural to think that many buffalo cows are around 150-200 kg. You shared now some material with cape buffalos and older elephant calves. That is odd when we are talking about very young forest elephant calves and forest buffalos. The older and bigger calf is, it is more and more safe when thinking about getting attacked by leopards. But then again that doesn´t change it, that leopard is very capable hunter and deserves a lot of respect. 
Mirror Size
2.5 m x 1.22 m or 8'2'' Wide x 4' tall I'd say it's fair to say this Leopard isn't half way high with it's shoulder height, if both on even ground it'd probably be half way up and his body Length is about half way, so it's a good estimate to say this Leopard should have a shoulder height of 24'' and a body length of 48'' That body length might be a bit generous as well, if you play the video at 1:30 you'll see the Leopard up on hits hind legs which is a fairly good estimate to it's Body Length and it doesn't reach the top of the mirror so most likely it's a little shorter than 48'' This mirror is 1.2m x 2.5mm or 3'9'' Tall x 8'2'' Wide This male is also similar sized as well  (06-20-2019, 03:49 AM)Pckts Wrote: Mirror Size He looks pretty robust and has an impressive skull as expected. I made a screenshot of it (and posted this video before aswell) here:  *This image is copyright of its original author
A camera trap from Philipp Henschel:
Male leopard in Plateaux Batéké NP in Gabon – the most beautiful cat species filmed in one of the most beautiful landscapes in Africa! Him having the courage to move around in broad daylight in the open savannah is thanks to the protection efforts by Gabon’s national park agency ANPN. Before almost all wildlife in the park was largely nocturnal due to intense poaching, as animals felt safer to move around in the cover of dark.  *This image is copyright of its original author Also, I finally managed to get in touch with him.  I asked his opinion about their suggested size, something I was wondering for quite a while:Quote:Yes, it was indeed one of the first I recorded in Gabon, and no worries at all. This just happens a lot. Back on the subject, we have no live weights of leopards in Gabon, as we so far never collared any, and thus we have close to no knowledge on the actual size of the cats. We have 3 skulls of sub-adult males now (2 killed by poachers and one found dead), and the skulls are fairly large. We have yet to take proper craniometric measurements. We also have a genetic study underway, and there seems to be a clear distinction, genetically, from East and Southern African leopards. Ecologically, their are certainly the apex predator in our closed forest systems here, as you state, and commonly used prey species are large. Males predominantly killed red river hogs in my dense forest sites, while in forest-savanna mosaics like northern Lope young forest buffalo become an important prey item seasonally. Gorilla and chimp are also regularly taken at all sites. It certainly makes sense for them to become big, heavy ambush predators in this environment... We'll have to wait a little bit longer to be 100% sure, but it looks like these leopards are indeed bigger and more robust. Too bad we don't have any weight measurements!
How does anything mentioned here
Quote:Yes, it was indeed one of the first I recorded in Gabon, and no worries at all. This just happens a lot. Back on the subject, we have no live weights of leopards in Gabon, as we so far never collared any, and thus we have close to no knowledge on the actual size of the cats. We have 3 skulls of sub-adult males now (2 killed by poachers and one found dead), and the skulls are fairly large. We have yet to take proper craniometric measurements. We also have a genetic study underway, and there seems to be a clear distinction, genetically, from East and Southern African leopards. Ecologically, their are certainly the apex predator in our closed forest systems here, as you state, and commonly used prey species are large. Males predominantly killed red river hogs in my dense forest sites, while in forest-savanna mosaics like northern Lope young forest buffalo become an important prey item seasonally. Gorilla and chimp are also regularly taken at all sites. It certainly makes sense for them to become big, heavy ambush predators in this environment...lead you to make this claim? Quote: but it looks like these leopards are indeed bigger and more robust.
Becouse as we know, larger leopards are more capable of taking on heavy prey which is why I bolded this part:
Quote:Ecologically, their are certainly the apex predator in our closed forest systems here, as you state, and commonly used prey species are large. Males predominantly killed red river hogs in my dense forest sites, while in forest-savanna mosaics like northern Lope young forest buffalo become an important prey item seasonally. Gorilla and chimp are also regularly taken at all sites. I've used the skull measurements argument many times since they're a good indicator of an animal its size (rather than weighing a gorged animal) and he stated this: Quote:We have 3 skulls of sub-adult males now (2 killed by poachers and one found dead), and the skulls are fairly large Being the apex predator means that there are no limitations (e.g. being small and slender to avoid bigger predators by climbing trees) so this also results in an increase of size. For now I have two Panthera researchers (with Philipp Henschel being the leading expert in West and Central-Africa, Jo Taylor being the other one) both admitting their bigger and more robust appearance and yet you're questioning my 'claim'? Not even talking about the skulls measurements where the larger ones originate from Central Africa. So we have leopards in equatorial forests predominantly preying upon large as red river hogs and young forest buffalo, they're the apex predator and have larger skulls than any other leopard subspecies. Photographic evidence also show us impressive leopards with many males having the appearance of a jaguar, the so called 'leopard on steroids'. You have every right to think otherwise but I think we can safely assume that they're bigger and more robust, based on skull measurements and their appearance on photos/videos. And of course Philipp Henschel's conclusion: Quote:It certainly makes sense for them to become big, heavy ambush predators in this environment Oh and for those wondering, this part was about a photos I shared where I forgot to credit Philipp Quote:Yes, it was indeed one of the first I recorded in Gabon, and no worries at all. This just happens a lot The leopard:  *This image is copyright of its original author
(08-21-2019, 12:10 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Becouse as we know, larger leopards are more capable of taking on heavy prey which is why I bolded this part: Maybe you could ask from Henschel, what he thinks. I mean he has for sure seen leopards elsewhere too, so he could be asked what is his opinion about sizes when comparing these leopards to other populations? It would be always interesting to know, but when asking questions it is also about it, that asking right questions to get clear answers. So yes, they are big, but does Henschel think, that they are bigger than other leopard populations/subspecies in Africa? Now when you have contact, try to ask that question, then we would have at least his opinion, not different kind of speculations what something he say means.
Red River hogs are small to mid sized prey, just like warthogs but with smaller tusks.
Young forest buffalo are small to mid size prey just like young zebra, young wildebeest, young rhino, young cape, young giraffe, etc. You have 2 Panthera researchers who have never captured, weighed or measured any leopards from anywhere. But you have actual measurements of the mirrors used to compare the Leopards to and it shows them to be normal sized leopards. Your claim to be "small and slender" to climb trees is wrong as well. Considering I've posted huge males in trees and I've seen a huge male in a tree with a water buck kill my self. Big Leopards carry big prey up trees and thus they gain mass by doing so. Skull size.. . Again is matched from numerous locations with some skulls scoring larger than congo basin skulls and again isn't the best correlation to total leopard size. No leopard shown on that table surpassed 91kg while gorged and you dont know which skull size even matches up to which weight. Henschel who you quoted in your previous post said nothing about Congo Basin Leopards being larger than any other Leopard and infact he specifically makes mention that he has never captured or measured any of them. But you somehow tried to highlight predation on red river Hogs as some sort of proof they are larger than anywhere else? You're bypassing the facts to try and skew a response to fit your agenda.
Don't the Congo Leopards kill Gorillas?
@ Did he post any actual kill? Even Bruce Kekule (an expert on Indochinese Leopards) posted a picture of a Leopard with a Sambar kill in Thailand. @Pckts Have to agree. The Red River Hog is not that impressive. An Indian or Sri Lankan Leopard killing Wild Boars seems a bit more credible. Also Wild Bovines are the most formidable prey item (outside of the pachyderms). For example, Lions have taken down Bull Elands single handedly and have occasionally taken down Bull Giraffe. On the other hand, Cape Buffalo Bulls are too formidable for a pride, let alone a single Lion. A Leopard can take down animals that can reach and surpass 300 kg ( Sambar Stags, Okapi Cows, Zebra Stallions, Eland Cows etc.). However, they will avoid full grown adult Forest Buffalos and Water Buffalos. They take down subadults and the occasional small cow. The reason is that these Bovines have a distinct anatomy from the goofy deer or antelope. |
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