Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)

[Pckts]

Persian leopard scratching against a thorny bush, northern Iran
Photo by Peyman Moghadas

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

A lot of springs are small waters that have been knocked out through the stones. In the first image, you see what a small stream was under the foot of the summer leopard last year, such small springs may be without water this year, the mgrậnḵh are systematically stored for the use of animals.

We are trying to improve 10 springs, this is only possible with your participation.

*This image is copyright of its original author

A Persian leopard travelled ca 85 km from Iran into Turkmenistan, satellite collar revealed

*This image is copyright of its original author

240 cm long .. this magnificent chap when we first captured him in Sep 2014 to collar ..
My Journey with Persian Leopardsat least 70 kg
My Journey with Persian LeopardsTail and body

*This image is copyright of its original author

Borna, the first leopard carried a satellite collar in the Middle East in 2014 is still alive and doing well within his territory in Tandoureh

*This image is copyright of its original author

A male leopard caught in snares set for wild pigs by local farmers in northern Iran was rescued by Dr Behrang Ekrami, our associated vet.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Sperm collection is crucial when a leopard is captured because it lets us to fertilize other females in captivity without the need to translocate the male. Here our associated vet Dr Behrang Ekrami is collecting sperm from a leopard in northern Iran.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Patrolling along ridgelines will give leopards a better chance to detect prey, threat and also other leopard intruders into their territory, such as this leopard in Salouk National Park. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Ali Shemirani Looks either freshly fed, or pregnant....? How much do the males and females usually weight, and how do they compare in size to the African leopards?
My Journey with Persian LeopardsIt is an adult male, males generally are around 67 female around 44 kg




Bardia, our collared leopard in Tandoureh, who was the 'man' of Tabnoureh for half decade, has not been spotted recently. Maybe he has become an aged leopard to leave his homeland for less favourable habitats?

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mid-winter is perceived as the peak of leopard mating. Here in Tandoureh, Bardia our collared leopard is mating with a female.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Bardia, who once carried a GPS collar for one year, is still alive and looks healthy in Tandoureh, recently photographed by our friend Davood Zarif. His favorite food is ibex. This is Bardia with his latest meal last week.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Again we see how rare it is for Leopards to be 100kg or over, even in what is considered the Largest Subspecies of Leopard.  Reply

[eagleman]

(04-13-2019, 05:38 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Trapped male who seems to have killed two children. Look at his skull size @0:35!

Actually, this is not a persian leopard at all, but a nrothern indian one. Regards Reply

[Luipaard]

@Pckts One of the largest subspecies*

Regarding the average weight of the males (67kg), why don't you share the weight chart of it? It's an interesting one:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see, 4 males are within the +90kg weight range. 

Here two males weighed 86kg and 66kg:

*This image is copyright of its original author

It makes sense that these particular leopards turn out to be larger since their main prey is far more impressive than South African or Indian leopards who predate mainly on impala's and deer. Persian leopards predate on:

Ibex (weight 91-120kg) 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Urial sheep (weight 60-90kg)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Wild boar from Golestan National Park: "As a result of the wild boar’s high rate of reproduction, it provides abundant prey for Iran’s large carnivores, particularly the leopard." This dependence on wild boar is largely due in part to the local leopard subspecies' large" size

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also, the leopard in the North like Iran are larger (Bergmann's rule). This is proven by this list of the largest skulls for leopards from scientific sources. The Central African leopards dominate the list but there are numerous Persians on the list, all from the North (Iran):

*This image is copyright of its original author

"Located in northwest of Golestan province in the north of Iran near the Turkmenistan border and in the Caspian Sea region, Golestan National Park is one of the oldest and most ecologically diverse protected areas of Iran, covering 900 square kilometers of Hyrcan jungle, high altitude juniper covered mountains and dry plain steppes vegetation. Golestan is a mixture of deciduous jungle and dry lands. Golestan is home to a variety of wildlife species such as Brown bear, Persian ibex, wild sheep, wild boar, roe deer, red deer, wild cat and the endangered Persian leopard. Traditionally, a healthy habitat and diverse prey base made Golestan an ideal ecosystem for the Persian leopard to thrive, with some cats weighing up to 100 kilograms. "


Here are some males from Iran to give you an idea:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Styx38]

@Luipaard 

Where did you get the Urial and Ibex weights from?

Can confirm.  Leopard's favorite prey is the Urial.

Urial that was predated on by a Leopard:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:A total of 65 kills made by the leopards were found indicating 6 different species eaten by the leopards in Sarigol which urial wild sheep formed main bulk of the kills (89.3%, n=59) (x2=198.84, df=4, p=0.000), followed by the wild boar as the second species found (4.5%, n=3) (Table 5). Among urials, adults composed the main proportion of the kills comparing to lambs (x2=38.72, df=1, p=0.000), significantly skewed toward urial rams (x2=13.29, df=1, p=0.000) (Table 6). We were able to age 34 of rams killed in Sarigol aged which showed significant difference between age categories

http://www.conservationleadershipprogramme.org/media/2014/11/000306_Iran_FinalReport_PersianLeopard.pdf



As can be seen here, most of the Leopard kills in Tandoureh are Ibex and Urial:

Ibex killed by Leopard:

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://future4leopards.org/photos/searching-for-leopards-kills-in-tandoureh/ Reply

[Luipaard]

@Styx38 I read it somewhere but I made a mistake regarding the ibex; there are many subspecies of these goats. The Bezoar ibex and the Sindh ibex are the ones that Persian leopards predate on. The Bezoar ibex averages 60kg and the Sindh ibex weights between 45kg and 90kg (link).

Here's a Bezoar ibex:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here's a Sindh ibex;

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Pckts]

(05-11-2019, 12:17 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts One of the largest subspecies*

Regarding the average weight of the males (67kg), why don't you share the weight chart of it? It's an interesting one:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see, 4 males are within the +90kg weight range. 

Here two males weighed 86kg and 66kg:

*This image is copyright of its original author

It makes sense that these particular leopards turn out to be larger since their main prey is far more impressive than South African or Indian leopards who predate mainly on impala's and deer. Persian leopards predate on:

Ibex (weight 91-120kg) 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Urial sheep (weight 60-90kg)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Wild boar from Golestan National Park: "As a result of the wild boar’s high rate of reproduction, it provides abundant prey for Iran’s large carnivores, particularly the leopard." This dependence on wild boar is largely due in part to the local leopard subspecies' large" size

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also, the leopard in the North like Iran are larger (Bergmann's rule). This is proven by this list of the largest skulls for leopards from scientific sources. The Central African leopards dominate the list but there are numerous Persians on the list, all from the North (Iran):

*This image is copyright of its original author

"Located in northwest of Golestan province in the north of Iran near the Turkmenistan border and in the Caspian Sea region, Golestan National Park is one of the oldest and most ecologically diverse protected areas of Iran, covering 900 square kilometers of Hyrcan jungle, high altitude juniper covered mountains and dry plain steppes vegetation. Golestan is a mixture of deciduous jungle and dry lands. Golestan is home to a variety of wildlife species such as Brown bear, Persian ibex, wild sheep, wild boar, roe deer, red deer, wild cat and the endangered Persian leopard. Traditionally, a healthy habitat and diverse prey base made Golestan an ideal ecosystem for the Persian leopard to thrive, with some cats weighing up to 100 kilograms. "


Here are some males from Iran to give you an idea:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopards I posted are from Iran, none of the many they've weighed have been over 75kg
In fact, one that would be the 2nd largest leopard on your list in terms of length, still weighed less than 75kg.
Can persians get up to 90 kg, of course they also do it more often than African or Indian Leopards as well. Yet, none are over that weight out of all measured and averages again are in the same range as anywhere else.
Also just look at the differences in weights, from 86kg to 18kg for males, outliers are nice to use but they are misleading. They paint as much of the picture as using that 34kg Male Persian with a TL of 2030mm, only 3" less in total length yet half the size, or even the 66kg one within 10mm of the 86kg one yet still 20kg difference. 
It's fairly obvious that Persians are definitely the longest of the Leopard subspecies and the heaviest or close to, which means like Amur Tigers, they are both the larger framed cat but also like amurs, they are a leaner cat as well. Amurs being smaller in weight than their Indian cousins and persians being similar weight to their African Cousins.
Again, comparing prey from anywhere else on earth to Africa is a losing battle. There is no place on earth that comes close to holding as many herbivores as Africa, even south Africa as you stated for some reason.
Indian leopards for sure have less compared but they still have a large prey biomass that won't be seen in the mountains of Iran.  But persians definitely prey on good sized animals and thus they are one of the largest sub species but their weights aren't unseen elsewhere, we have leopards in the 90kg range from Africa as well just not as often but again, comparing the amount of African Leopards to Persian Leopards, it's not close. There are 1000s more Africans so of course you're going to find more under that maximum weight than over it, the averages will only continue to distance themselves from the outliers.
Even look at your list, 3 close to 90kg and 22+ under 90kg.
*Not including the 115kg cat for reasons we all know*
So out of 25 males, only 3 can reach that size which is a 12% chance, now include all the others one listed, all under 90kg btw, and that % will go down even further. Reply

[Luipaard]

(05-11-2019, 05:11 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(05-11-2019, 12:17 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts One of the largest subspecies*

Regarding the average weight of the males (67kg), why don't you share the weight chart of it? It's an interesting one:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see, 4 males are within the +90kg weight range. 

Here two males weighed 86kg and 66kg:

*This image is copyright of its original author

It makes sense that these particular leopards turn out to be larger since their main prey is far more impressive than South African or Indian leopards who predate mainly on impala's and deer. Persian leopards predate on:

Ibex (weight 91-120kg) 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Urial sheep (weight 60-90kg)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Wild boar from Golestan National Park: "As a result of the wild boar’s high rate of reproduction, it provides abundant prey for Iran’s large carnivores, particularly the leopard." This dependence on wild boar is largely due in part to the local leopard subspecies' large" size

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also, the leopard in the North like Iran are larger (Bergmann's rule). This is proven by this list of the largest skulls for leopards from scientific sources. The Central African leopards dominate the list but there are numerous Persians on the list, all from the North (Iran):

*This image is copyright of its original author

"Located in northwest of Golestan province in the north of Iran near the Turkmenistan border and in the Caspian Sea region, Golestan National Park is one of the oldest and most ecologically diverse protected areas of Iran, covering 900 square kilometers of Hyrcan jungle, high altitude juniper covered mountains and dry plain steppes vegetation. Golestan is a mixture of deciduous jungle and dry lands. Golestan is home to a variety of wildlife species such as Brown bear, Persian ibex, wild sheep, wild boar, roe deer, red deer, wild cat and the endangered Persian leopard. Traditionally, a healthy habitat and diverse prey base made Golestan an ideal ecosystem for the Persian leopard to thrive, with some cats weighing up to 100 kilograms. "


Here are some males from Iran to give you an idea:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopards I posted are from Iran, none of the many they've weighed have been over 75kg
In fact, one that would be the 2nd largest leopard on your list in terms of length, still weighed less than 75kg.
Can persians get up to 90 kg, of course they also do it more often than African or Indian Leopards as well. Yet, none are over that weight out of all measured and averages again are in the same range as anywhere else.
Also just look at the differences in weights, from 86kg to 18kg for males, outliers are nice to use but they are misleading. They paint as much of the picture as using that 34kg Male Persian with a TL of 2030mm, only 3" less in total length yet half the size, or even the 66kg one within 10mm of the 86kg one yet still 20kg difference. 
It's fairly obvious that Persians are definitely the longest of the Leopard subspecies and the heaviest or close to, which means like Amur Tigers, they are both the larger framed cat but also like amurs, they are a leaner cat as well. Amurs being smaller in weight than their Indian cousins and persians being similar weight to their African Cousins.
Again, comparing prey from anywhere else on earth to Africa is a losing battle. There is no place on earth that comes close to holding as many herbivores as Africa, even south Africa as you stated for some reason.
Indian leopards for sure have less compared but they still have a large prey biomass that won't be seen in the mountains of Iran.  But persians definitely prey on good sized animals and thus they are one of the largest sub species but their weights aren't unseen elsewhere, we have leopards in the 90kg range from Africa as well just not as often but again, comparing the amount of African Leopards to Persian Leopards, it's not close. There are 1000s more Africans so of course you're going to find more under that maximum weight than over it, the averages will only continue to distance themselves from the outliers.
Even look at your list, 3 close to 90kg and 22+ under 90kg.
*Not including the 115kg cat for reasons we all know*
So out of 25 males, only 3 can reach that size which is a 12% chance, now include all the others one listed, all under 90kg btw, and that % will go down even further.

86kg to 18kg? You need to take a better look becouse only two Persian were weighed. The rest are Arabian leopards from Oman AND that 18kg male was a sub-adult.

And 22+ under 90kg? I count 16 males under 90kg. In total, 9 males of 22 weighed between 75-115kg. 4 out of 22 are above 90kg, that's 18%, almost 1/5. Reply

[Pckts]

(05-11-2019, 05:24 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(05-11-2019, 05:11 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(05-11-2019, 12:17 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts One of the largest subspecies*

Regarding the average weight of the males (67kg), why don't you share the weight chart of it? It's an interesting one:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see, 4 males are within the +90kg weight range. 

Here two males weighed 86kg and 66kg:

*This image is copyright of its original author

It makes sense that these particular leopards turn out to be larger since their main prey is far more impressive than South African or Indian leopards who predate mainly on impala's and deer. Persian leopards predate on:

Ibex (weight 91-120kg) 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Urial sheep (weight 60-90kg)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Wild boar from Golestan National Park: "As a result of the wild boar’s high rate of reproduction, it provides abundant prey for Iran’s large carnivores, particularly the leopard." This dependence on wild boar is largely due in part to the local leopard subspecies' large" size

*This image is copyright of its original author

Also, the leopard in the North like Iran are larger (Bergmann's rule). This is proven by this list of the largest skulls for leopards from scientific sources. The Central African leopards dominate the list but there are numerous Persians on the list, all from the North (Iran):

*This image is copyright of its original author

"Located in northwest of Golestan province in the north of Iran near the Turkmenistan border and in the Caspian Sea region, Golestan National Park is one of the oldest and most ecologically diverse protected areas of Iran, covering 900 square kilometers of Hyrcan jungle, high altitude juniper covered mountains and dry plain steppes vegetation. Golestan is a mixture of deciduous jungle and dry lands. Golestan is home to a variety of wildlife species such as Brown bear, Persian ibex, wild sheep, wild boar, roe deer, red deer, wild cat and the endangered Persian leopard. Traditionally, a healthy habitat and diverse prey base made Golestan an ideal ecosystem for the Persian leopard to thrive, with some cats weighing up to 100 kilograms. "


Here are some males from Iran to give you an idea:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopards I posted are from Iran, none of the many they've weighed have been over 75kg
In fact, one that would be the 2nd largest leopard on your list in terms of length, still weighed less than 75kg.
Can persians get up to 90 kg, of course they also do it more often than African or Indian Leopards as well. Yet, none are over that weight out of all measured and averages again are in the same range as anywhere else.
Also just look at the differences in weights, from 86kg to 18kg for males, outliers are nice to use but they are misleading. They paint as much of the picture as using that 34kg Male Persian with a TL of 2030mm, only 3" less in total length yet half the size, or even the 66kg one within 10mm of the 86kg one yet still 20kg difference. 
It's fairly obvious that Persians are definitely the longest of the Leopard subspecies and the heaviest or close to, which means like Amur Tigers, they are both the larger framed cat but also like amurs, they are a leaner cat as well. Amurs being smaller in weight than their Indian cousins and persians being similar weight to their African Cousins.
Again, comparing prey from anywhere else on earth to Africa is a losing battle. There is no place on earth that comes close to holding as many herbivores as Africa, even south Africa as you stated for some reason.
Indian leopards for sure have less compared but they still have a large prey biomass that won't be seen in the mountains of Iran.  But persians definitely prey on good sized animals and thus they are one of the largest sub species but their weights aren't unseen elsewhere, we have leopards in the 90kg range from Africa as well just not as often but again, comparing the amount of African Leopards to Persian Leopards, it's not close. There are 1000s more Africans so of course you're going to find more under that maximum weight than over it, the averages will only continue to distance themselves from the outliers.
Even look at your list, 3 close to 90kg and 22+ under 90kg.
*Not including the 115kg cat for reasons we all know*
So out of 25 males, only 3 can reach that size which is a 12% chance, now include all the others one listed, all under 90kg btw, and that % will go down even further.

86kg to 18kg? You need to take a better look becouse only two Persian were weighed. The rest are Arabian leopards from Oman AND that 18kg male was a sub-adult.

And 22+ under 90kg? I count 16 males under 90kg. In total, 9 males of 22 weighed between 75-115kg. 4 out of 22 are above 90kg, that's 18%, almost 1/5.

I didnt notice the subspecies on the first post, that being said, still what I said holds true. Longer species with a lighter weight comparatively. 86kg at the max length with the next closest 20kg less and all others measured by Kiabi progressively getting smaller. 
Larger lengths from Harrison but measuring standards could be different between the two. Even if not, the 240cm Persian I posted would still be the 2nd largest leopard on that entire list and still be under 75kg.

I'm counting the sub adult males and again, the 115kg isn't being considered in my response for obvious reasons.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Now add the cats on your list and the ones listed from my post of Iran cats and the other Persian weights we have at the moment, and that % of 90kg cats goes down rapidly. Reply

[Styx38]

(05-11-2019, 05:11 PM)Pckts Wrote: Again, comparing prey from anywhere else on earth to Africa is a losing battle. There is no place on earth that comes close to holding as many herbivores as Africa, even south Africa as you stated for some reason.
Indian leopards for sure have less compared but they still have a large prey biomass that won't be seen in the mountains of Iran.  But persians definitely prey on good sized animals and thus they are one of the largest sub species but their weights aren't unseen elsewhere, we have leopards in the 90kg range from Africa as well just not as often but again, comparing the amount of African Leopards to Persian Leopards, it's not close.

It is not a losing battle because Leopards in Africa and India rarely kill adult animals. In fact, experts like Seidensticker did not believe Leopards could take down adult sambar. Recently, Lovari dispelled the myth and stated that Leopards can kill prey over 100 kg, but you will still get naysayers when comparing them to mountain lion killing feats.

If you see many studies of Indian national parks, you won't see Leopards attacking adult sambar deer, but rather focusing on juveniles of most ungulates with some mid-sized adult spotted deer. On the other hand,  Kittle's Yala study documents  three sambar stags killed by a Leopard(s).

In an Persian Documentary, one of the main kills featured was a large Caspian Red Deer Hind (or cow). It's rare to see Leopards tackling animals so big on major documentaries set in the Lion dominated Savannas or Tiger dominated jungles:

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author



^Leopard bite marks from strangulation?

*This image is copyright of its original author

from 17:55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3kaD9zGnuM

If this was in Lion or Tiger zones, then Leopards won't be making kills this big frequently. They will focus on easy juveniles or small-mid sized antelope to cache in the trees. 

This is why Iran and Sri Lanka produce more robust/bigger individuals than those areas.


Speaking about Big cats, Jaguars in the Pantanal have a smaller prey base than Leopards in Africa and India, but are still larger and more robust due to their top predator status. This proves that a big cat's size will be correlated with a moderate amount of mid-large prey, and how often it can eat the prey without being displaced from its kill by a bigger carnivore. Reply

[Pckts]

100% Leopards kills adult Sambar, so that's false. 

https://www.wcs.org/wildcards/posts/a-le...kes-a-kill

*This image is copyright of its original author

2ndly, not a single study states any leopard species rarely kills adults and African Leopards kill far more and larger prey than any species of Leopard in comparison.
Indian leopards have much less small to mid sized prey available comparitively so of course they won't make as many large kills, also why they're usually smaller than their African cousins.

Now in regards to Jaguars, you're speaking on different species, if being the apex predator dictated size than all Jaguars would be pantanal sized. But that's not the case, the pantanal on top of being a completely unique eco system, offers many prey items that are extremely large. I.e. Capybara, Caiman, Pecaray, Giant Ant eater, Marsh Deer, Otter, etc.

Sri Lankan leopards are apex predators yet their size isn't larger than African Leopards or even Indians based off measurements and weights, Persian leopards are apex predators with high altitude in their favor yet they haven't produced a Leopard over 100kg.
You can speculate all you want, the facts are the same. Male Leopards are 50-80kg, some outliers get close to that 100kg mark. These weights have occured in Africa, India or Iran, not one place has produced some freak individuals that dwarf all other sub species. Reply

[Wolverine]

(05-12-2019, 04:12 AM)Pckts Wrote: Sri Lankan leopards are apex predators yet their size isn't larger than African Leopards or even Indians based off measurements and weights

Agree with you. I have no particular data about specimens but there is no theoretical reasons why should Sri Lanka subspecie be larger than Indian. See, in Sri Lanka we have 2 powers acting in opposite directions:
1. In Sri Lanka there are No tigers so this subspecie should be large, larger than Indian subspecie, probably one of the largest in the world.

But

2. Sri Lanka is an island and here acts the law of Insular dwarfism, stating that "large animals evolving or having a reduced body size when their population's range is limited to a small environment, primarily islands."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_dwarfism
So, Sri Lanka subspecie should be small... For sure larger than those from the island of Java where there were tigers.

Finally factor 1 and 2 mutually neutralize each other and in result Sri Lanka subspecie should be average to large, but not super-large. These are theoretical speculations since I dont have a data for particular specimens and it not interest me. The largest subspecies should be only two: Persian (inhabiting snowy Alborz mountains and formally Russian Caucasus) and West African, inhabiting rain forests where lions are absent. Reply

[Styx38]

(05-12-2019, 04:12 AM)Pckts Wrote: 100% Leopards kills adult Sambar, so that's false. 


2ndly, not a single study states any leopard species rarely kills adults and African Leopards kill far more and larger prey than any species of Leopard in comparison.
Indian leopards have much less small to mid sized prey available comparitively so of course they won't make as many large kills, also why they're usually smaller than their African cousins.

Now in regards to Jaguars, you're speaking on different species, if being the apex predator dictated size than all Jaguars would be pantanal sized. But that's not the case, the pantanal on top of being a completely unique eco system, offers many prey items that are extremely large. I.e. Capybara, Caiman, Pecaray, Giant Ant eater, Marsh Deer, Otter, etc.

Sri Lankan leopards are apex predators yet their size isn't larger than African Leopards or even Indians based off measurements and weights, Persian leopards are apex predators with high altitude in their favor yet they haven't produced a Leopard over 100kg.
You can speculate all you want, the facts are the same. Male Leopards are 50-80kg, some outliers get close to that 100kg mark. These weights have occured in Africa, India or Iran, not one place has produced some freak individuals that dwarf all other sub species.

1 and 2)

Quote:Likewise, small sized preys made up more of the biomass eaten by leopards than medium sized prey and considerably more than large prey, which leopard appear to avoid attacking (Table 3).  


There may be two reasons for the observed difference in preferred size of prey between tiger and leopard. One is that for a large predator, like tiger, it may be almost equally easy to overpower and capture large pry, (e.g., adult gaur or sambar), as a smaller one (Sunquist 1981), while much smaller leopard may find difficulties in killing large prey. Consequently, leopard might have to resort to medium or smaller prey, while tiger may prefer large food items, which provide it by more meat. The other option is that tiger may prefer less disturbed central areas of the park, while leopard is more tolerant to disturbances (Wang and McDonald 2009b). Assuming that both predators eat what is available in their preferred habitat, there may be a larger proportion of large-sized prey in tiger’s diet, because these are more frequently encountered in the central parts of the park (DNPWC 2009), while leopard may be more likely to kill smaller-sized animals, occurring at the periphery of the park, like goats. Based on our data, it is not possible to test, which of these options is true—maybe both.  

It is difficult for a leopard to kill large animals like cattle and buffalo. Hence, goats are the easy prey for leopards and they occurred more in leopards’ 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10531-012-0298-y

or Interactions between Bengal tiger (Panthera tigris) and leopard (Panthera pardus): implications for their conservation by Bhattarai and Kindelmann

Quote:Similarly, sambar deer are larger and more aggressive than chital deer, and this could be a reason for their lower occurrence in our scat samples.

Tiger decline caused by the reduction of large ungulate prey: evidence from a study of leopard diets in southern India (Ramakrishnan et. al)




Anyway, I found this interesting set of info:

Quote:The contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet was 44.2% in 1990, when the study area was largely occupied by tigers (Sankar & Johnsingh 2002), but after the local extermination of tiger from the study area (2007-08), Mondal et al. (2011) found no contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet. Later, after the re-introduction of tiger in the study area (in 2009), the contribution of rodent in leopard’s diet raised to 5.4% (Table III). In 1990, chital contributed maximum in tiger diet (57.2%) followed by sambar (18.1%) and in leopard diet, rodent contributed maximum (44.2%) followed by chital (20.2%), sambar (19.4%) and nilgai (7%). But after the local extermination of tiger from the study area, the diet of leopard changed significantly. The contribution of sambar and nilgai in leopard’s diet increased to 40.3% and 11.5% respectively in 2007-08, when there was no tiger in the study area (Mondal et al. 2011) (Table III). It was evident that, leopard shifted their diet from lesser prey species. to large ungulates after tiger extermination from Sariska (Sankar et al. 2009; Mondal et al. 2011)

This was one of the few areas where Leopards actually made adult Sambar kills (both stags and hinds):

*This image is copyright of its original author

Prey selection, food habits and dietary overlap between leopard Panthera pardus (Mammalia: Carnivora) and re-introduced tiger Panthera tigris (Mammalia: Carnivora) in a semi-arid forest of Sariska Tiger Reserve, Western India  (Mondal et. al)


It is pretty obvious Leopards make big kills when a larger carnivore is absent. It's just that there was a misconception with the previous two studies that leopards may not be able to take down adult sambar, or any other large ungulate.

Might explain why the majority of documentaries in African savannas show Leopards mainly focusing on juveniles/subadults, impalas, gazelles, duikers,  steenbok and even hares while lions take down adult zebra, wildebeest and buffalo.

At least Rob the Ranger upgraded it with an occasional Kudu cow.  

*This image is copyright of its original author

 


3) Haha, most of the Jaguar prey you listed is fairly small to mid-sized except for the Marsh deer. Anyway, there is a correlation with decent sized prey and top predator position, like Persian/Sri Lankan/Central African Leopard (top predators with decent sized prey) vs. Arabian Leopard (top predators with small prey).



4) "Persian leopards are apex predators with high altitude in their favor yet they haven't produced a Leopard over 100kg."

Nice contradiction:

(12-22-2015, 12:47 AM)Pckts Wrote: Even though I am skeptical of it, it was confirmed by the vet.
The largest verified leopard weight was the 115kg mark set by a persian leopard missing one paw.

Reply

[Luipaard]

(05-12-2019, 09:38 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(05-12-2019, 04:12 AM)Pckts Wrote: Sri Lankan leopards are apex predators yet their size isn't larger than African Leopards or even Indians based off measurements and weights

Agree with you. I have no particular data about specimens but there is no theoretical reasons why should Sri Lanka subspecie be larger than Indian. See, in Sri Lanka we have 2 powers acting in opposite directions:
1. In Sri Lanka there are No tigers so this subspecie should be large, larger than Indian subspecie, probably one of the largest in the world.

But

2. Sri Lanka is an island and here acts the law of Insular dwarfism, stating that "large animals evolving or having a reduced body size when their population's range is limited to a small environment, primarily islands."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_dwarfism
So, Sri Lanka subspecie should be small... For sure larger than those from the island of Java where there were tigers.

Finally factor 1 and 2 mutually neutralize each other and in result Sri Lanka subspecie should be average to large, but not super-large. These are theoretical speculations since I dont have a data for particular specimens and it not interest me. The largest subspecies should be only two: Persian (inhabiting snowy Alborz mountains and formally Russian Caucasus) and West African, inhabiting rain forests where lions are absent.

There's no reliable data as for now; the only data available is like one old one where some leopards were measured. The average for males was 56kg and the largest weighed was 77kg. Everyone takes these weights as the norm. 

However, if you just look at their appearance via photos or videos, you'll notice they're for sure bigger than their Indian counterpart.

As for the dwarfism, the leopard is the dominant predator of Sri Lanka unlike in the savanna or in India where it is sympatric with the larger lion and tiger. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as characterrelease). The leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees to avoid lions/tigers.

This is why the 'apex predator' leopards are the largest of all leopards. I'm talking about the Rainforest, Sri Lankan, Persian and East African leopards from the Aberdare, Kenya. Reply

[Pckts]

@Styx38 

Let's start right here...

"4) "Persian leopards are apex predators with high altitude in their favor yet they haven't produced a Leopard over 100kg."

Nice contradiction:

(12-22-2015, 02:17 AM)Pckts Wrote: Wrote:Even though I am skeptical of it, it was confirmed by the vet.
The largest verified leopard weight was the 115kg mark set by a persian leopard missing one paw.

Do you know what's changed in those 3 years?
I've now been to both Africa and India now, I've befriended and spoken with more wildlife experts than in any time prior to my life and I've been to more Sanctuaries and Zoos then at any point prior in my life.
I've seen and spoken to far to many people and things to keep the same perspective I had 3.5 years ago, if you haven't then that's on you.
So needless to say, a weight I was already skeptical on 3.5 years ago has only become more far fetched. Considering I have now seen many Persian weights, spoken with field experts and hunting records to compare, I can say with more confidence now then ever that the weight of 115kg is not valid. A Leopard with a missing paw and no extraordinary dimensions isn't a record Persian Leopard, the largest you have is 91kg on baited cats, this is also why Panthera group doesn't recognize it as valid nor will most.
In regards to the posts on Sambar, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at?
Leopards prey on Adult Sambar, simple as that. 
No Leopard sub species preys on 100kg animals all the time, it's why their mean body weight on prey is between 15-60kg no matter the sub species. 
In Ranthambore, one of the highest density of Tigers in India, Leopards make Sambar kills regardless of Tigers being ever present and abundant.
 
"264
Leopard
Jan 31, 2018
PM
4,5
Tazin
A leopard was sighted when it killed a sambar deer."
https://www.ranthambhoreguides.com/animal-movement/index?page=14&sort=note



So the idea that the Leopards don't kill large prey in the presence of another Predator is wrong, they are very location dependent, even treeing prey is dependent on location, obviously the location must have trees close by or else they must eat in a bush they drag their prey to. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

They just prefer prey smaller than themselves if possible, but again it's dependent on the Cat it self.
We have 20+ pages of Leopards make all kinds of kills, with obvious leopards showing distinct killing techniques depending on their location and individual. You see this in Leopards killing Warthog by Chest bite, an obvious adaption to avoid their dangerous tusks and their thick necks.  This technique isn't something any Leopard can do, it's a skill required of a larger individual.
Hence why we usually see it in males, I don't recall a single female killing a Large Warthog that way.
 
Last is this 
You wrote
"3) Haha, most of the Jaguar prey you listed is fairly small to mid-sized except for the Marsh deer. Anyway, there is a correlation with decent sized prey and top predator position, like Persian/Sri Lankan/Central African Leopard (top predators with decent sized prey) vs. Arabian Leopard (top predators with small prey)."

The prey listed is still large, far larger than the average of 15-40kg for Leopards, and obviously the location of the Pantanal and prey biomass they have there contributes to the Lioness sized Jaguars that live there while neighboring locations like the Amazon don't check the same boxes and thus they have smaller Jags even when living relatively close to one another. 

Also, what you don't seem to factor in is the faults in scat analysis or Kill sites, you have to understand that these researchers are making due with the limited information available to them, but that information hardly tells the whole story nor is it nearly enough data to come to any real conclusions. Using single studies to pick and chose which data you use is going to lead to a skewed analysis that's based off proving yourself right over looking for answers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

@Luipaard wrote
"There's no reliable data as for now; the only data available is like one old one where some leopards were measured. The average for males was 56kg and the largest weighed was 77kg. Everyone takes these weights as the norm. 



However, if you just look at their appearance via photos or videos, you'll notice they're for sure bigger than their Indian counterpart.



As for the dwarfism, the leopard is the dominant predator of Sri Lanka unlike in the savanna or in India where it is sympatric with the larger lion and tiger. In the absence of a more dominant competitor the subordinate species will tend to exhibit an increase in size (this is known as characterrelease). The leopard is free to hunt larger animals and also does not need to stay lightweight to climb high into trees to avoid lions/tigers.


This is why the 'apex predator' leopards are the largest of all leopards. I'm talking about the Rainforest, Sri Lankan, Persian and East African leopards from the Aberdare, Kenya."

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are roughly only 250 Sri Lankan Leopards left, even when their numbers were better of the 11 males weighed, the largest was 77kg. 
The body measurements are smaller than a few different African Species and Thai ones, in the females it's even more pronounced. 



You always like to use Skull size to correlate Rainforest Leopards as being Jaguar sized, 100kg beast but these leopards below all scored higher than the highest Estimated Leopard Skull, it is estimated of course off of Condylobasal Length, which already has discrepancies. Just look at the different correlations between each one on this chart below you like to use, so that alone means the Largest one is not confirmed. 
 

*This image is copyright of its original author

But back to the point... All these leopards shown below scored higher than the Largest Congo Leopard skull confirmed yet none of them even reached the 90kg mark confirmed.

*This image is copyright of its original author

#4 In 2009, Phillip Hoisington took this spotted beauty near Windhoek, Namibia. It measured 18 15/16″.

*This image is copyright of its original author

#2 Rodney A. Klein poses with his leopard taken in 2001 in Kalahari, R.S.A. It measures 19 10/16″

*This image is copyright of its original author

#1 Steven Chancellor took the number 1 leopard in 1997 in Okavango, Botswana. This magnificent cat scored 19 11/16″

One of the biggest leopards we have seen , legit 86 kg 189pounds , guys that tell you they have shot 200 pound leopards lie , they don't weigh them properly or at all . This is about as big as they possibly get . Kenyan highland jungle leopards had some pushing 200 pounds but those areas are banned to sport hunting nowadays. South Africa and Namibia has big cats zim too and Ethiopia .

*This image is copyright of its original author

86 kg

*This image is copyright of its original author

Ashok Rajasingh Big record size male will be 80 kg. Average male is 55 to 65 kg. The biggest animals seem to come from dryer open scrub regions.

Varies according to local conditions. Rain forest animals are generally smaller - 50 kg

87kg record size Tom

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

#6 Juan Renedo Sedano took this leopard in 1982 in the Republic of South Africa. It measures 18 10/16″.



Lastly, in regards to the correlation of Large Carnivores present to Leopards...

"Tanzania’s Renowned Maswa North Game Reserve – Maswa North is considered by many to be one of the African continents leading prime game hunting areas. This hunting area can be reached by private air charter or by flying commercial to Mwanza and driving approximately 4 hours to camp. Maswa’s 751 square kilometers is located along the southwestern boundary of the Serengeti National Park. More than 1.5 million Wildebeest migrate from the Serengeti National Park through Maswa North Game Reserve in January and February feeding on the new growth of grasses after the short rains of November and December. The Southern part of Maswa forms the Serengeti short grass plains. Bottom line, the proximity of Maswa to the Serengeti National Park: The climate is moderate here with cold nights in July, August and early September. During the day temperatures will reach upwards of 80 degrees F. Game is plentiful and Maswa offers exceptional trophy quality for Cape Buffalo with bulls between 45 and 48 inches harvested annually; and where you have plenty of Buffalo you will find good numbers of black manned Lions. In addition you will see large Leopards and other splendid trophies that include Robert’s Gazelle, Roan, Cokes Hartebeest, Grant’s Gazelle, Thompson’s Gazelle, East African Impala, Zebra, Defassa Waterbuck, Warthog, Topi, Wildebeest, Baboon, Bushbuck, Eland, Bohor Reedbuck, Klipspringer, Steinbuck, Hyena, Jackal and Ostrich."

We know what Black Maned Lions mean and if those are the healthiest of Male Lions and you find large Leopards in the same location, that only means that they both coexist and excel. 

Proof of this yet again 
"Rungwa East & Rungwa Lunda – Rungwa Game Reserve and Lunda Game Controlled Area of Tanzania covers over 300,000 acres of prime hunting area in the Rungwa Game Reserve and the Lunda Game Controlled Area, sharing over 100 kilometers of common boundary with the Ruaha National park. This area is arguably one of the best hunting areas in Tanzania. It is a known fact that this area holds some of the densest Lion populations in Tanzania as well as countless herds of Cape Buffalo. Numerous in numbers, these areas also abound in excellent trophy quality Leopard, Eland, Sable, Antelope, Roan Antelope, Lichtenstein’s Hartebeest, Zebra, Greater Kudu, Lesser Kudu, Reedbuck, Bushbuck, Oribi, Klipspringer, Dik Dik, Bushpig, Warthog, Hyena, Hippo and Crocodile. There is also a large concentration of elephant in this area, with a number of 50+ pound bulls seen on a regular basis."

http://weshixon.com/trip/tanzania-africa/

As we can see, Leopards from all over Africa have scored higher, weighed more or equal and done so in the presence of Larger Carnivores.


Character Release simply means "character release The principle that a species will be able to exploit a greater range of habitats if it occurs in an environment from which a similar species with which it normally occurs is absent. Compare character displacement. "character release." A Dictionary of Ecology. . "character release."

Which you see in Sri Lankan Leopards for instance, not with size but with density. Sri Lanka is one of the most densely populated Leopard territories on earth, but we're still only speaking on 250 specimens compared to 1000s throughout C. and E. Africa, and this is why their size shows no significant gain from verified weights.

"Restricted dispersal on islands leads to higher population densities, thus to a decrease in body size (Wasserzug et al., 1979) "

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.7130&rep=rep1&type=pdf


Insular Dwarfism generally refers to larger animals while Insular Gigantism generally refers to smaller seed eating animals, Leopards and other carnivores generally are effected by prey bio mass. 

"Among mammals, carnivores dominate much of the literature on morphological relationships. Unsurprisingly, prey size is generally correlated with carnivore body size (Gittleman, 1985), so partitioning food by size may be expected. Larger predators tend to take a larger range of sizes of prey, generally because the upper size limit increases (Schoener, 1969; Wilson, 1975; Gittleman, 1985). In addition, substantial data show aggressive interference among carnivores, associated with competition for prey (discussion in Van Valkenburgh, 1984; Van Valkenburgh & Hertel, 1993). Also, carnivores often have wide geographical ranges, thus interacting with many different sets of species, and they often have pronounced geographical size variation, which has been extensively studied. These lines of research have focused mammalian character displacement research on carnivores, despite well-known obstacles to field research on this group. For two Chilean foxes (Dusicyon culpaeus and D. griseus), Fuentes & Jaksic (1979) perceived character displacement as divergence in body length with increasing latitude, associated with a concomitant increase in habitat overlap. Jimenez (1993) rejected this interpretation, arguing that both species adhered to Bergmann’s rule, increasing in size with increasing latitude.
Rosenzweig (1968), McNab (1971), and Ralls & Harvey (1985) disagreed about character displacement in North American weasels. The former two studies both used head plus body length to characterize size. Rosenzweig (1968), studying males and females of the Stoat Mustela erminea separately, plus a mixed sample, saw latitude and mean annual temperature as largely governing size variation and assigned a minimal role to competition with congeners or to size of available prey. McNab (1971), on the other hand, felt that size of available prey plus character displacement generated by competition with other weasels dominated size variation in the Stoat. He argued similarly for size variation in South American felids and suggested that, in general, where Bergmannian size clines exist at all, they are likely to be a consequence of interspecific competition rather than a response to climatic gradients. Using condylobasal skull length as a size measurement, Ralls & Harvey (1985) found no evidence for character displacement among North American weasels. Rather, for the Stoat, they found a latitudinal size cline, while no correlates were found for size variation in M. frenata or M. nivalis."



There are also examples in that study that you can use to back your claim as well

As you can see, these Rules are very up in the air, we can find examples that prove or disprove them and the scientific community is still split, hence why we can circle back over and over again.
But when you cut out the what ifs and "Rules" and just go off of Measurements and weights you don't see a larger cat just a different one.


All that being said, I once again believe Persians to be the Largest Sub Species and yet they haven't produced a Verified 100kg'er just yet and all the hunting sights I see even with baited cats have still not produced 100kg Leopard either, even with more impressive Skull Measurements and to me that says it all. Reply

[Luipaard]

@Pckts 

Quote:No Leopard sub species preys on 100kg animals all the time, it's why their mean body weight on prey is between 15-60kg no matter the sub species. In Ranthambore, one of the highest density of Tigers in India, Leopards make Sambar kills regardless of Tigers being ever present and abundant.

As I've mentioned before in this post, Persian leopards predate on larger prey compared to South African leopards. Same applies to Central African (male) leopards, where their main prey are red river hogs (weight 45-115kg, average 70kg).

Quote:You always like to use Skull size to correlate Rainforest Leopards as being Jaguar sized, 100kg beast but these leopards below all scored higher than the highest Estimated Leopard Skull, it is estimated of course off of Condylobasal Length, which already has discrepancies. Just look at the different correlations between each one on this chart below you like to use, so that alone means the Largest one is not confirmed.

The skull measurements in that list are the largest ones from scientific sources, unlike estimates from hunters. 

As I've said many times before, their average is equal in size to Amazon male jaguars and Pantanal jaguaresses. The larger ones rival that of Pantanal males. Tell me, what makes you think that these males average 65kg with such large skulls? It's not accurate but still a good indicator. Photographic evidence proves that even more.

Quote:Ashok Rajasingh Big record size male will be 80 kg. Average male is 55 to 65 kg. The biggest animals seem to come from dryer open scrub regions. Varies according to local conditions. Rain forest animals are generally smaller - 50 kg

That's false... Now I have to share this once again:

"Robin Hurt had some experience hunting in Central Africa (DR Congo, CAR, Sudan). He only hunted one leopard in DR Congo and it turned out to be the biggest he encountered. He said it was almost as big as a lioness, its skull was over 11 inches long and he estimated the weight at 220lbs. According to him, the biggest leopards in Africa are usually found in the rainforest areas (both Central and East Africa). He also adds that very big leopard can sometimes be found in Southern Africa (Zimbabwe and Namibia etc) but these are exceptions. He is currently based in Namibia so he has no incentive to exaggerate the size of Congo leopards where trophy hunting is now banned. Robin Hurt's experience mirrors that of Peter TurnBull-Kemp who had also dealt with leopards from throughout Africa and similarly concluded the biggest are found in the equatorial forests. The biggest leopard Turnbull-Kemp had ever seen was a monster specimen killed in Cameroon. I'm not surprised by the convergent opinion of both these very experienced authorities on African leopards given the fact it is strongly supported by skull data and frankly a logical understanding of natural selection."

*This image is copyright of its original author

As for Sri Lankan leopard; "here are two vaguely separable types. The massive and stockily built ones, others lankier and more slenderly built. The size of a leopard, its skull etc, will depend largely on the availability of food and the age of the specimen under examination." Reply