WildFact
›
Information Section
›
Terrestrial Wild Animals
›
Wild Cats
›
Leopard
Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)
Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)
|
Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)
|
https://www.instagram.com/wild_life_of_iran/p/CLkqc4YBPFP/?utm_medium=copy_linkhttps://www.instagram.com/p/BmQJuSTBQzJ/?utm_medium=copy_link
Some tandoureh leopards not sure if they’ve been posted before https://www.instagram.com/p/CXwR2qHAK0O/?utm_medium=copy_link And a male leopard from Sarigol protected area park which is near tandoureh.
Huge golestan male with a large frame. You can tell that this is a very large and agile leopard, probably a great fighter.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CQn7Qn4nVKF/?utm_medium=copy_link 
These are the giant males that roam in Northern Iran. I've never seen leopards with so massive and huge bodies with pinheads like in these males.
I guess that these could be some real 100+ kg leopards. https://imgur.com/t/animals/akP2h2G.gif https://imgur.com/t/predator/uXtaU6Q.gif @GuateGojira @Pckts how much do you guys estimate these chonkers to be? In my opinion they do look like 100+ kg males  (02-06-2022, 08:04 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: These are the giant males that roam in Northern Iran. I've never seen leopards with so massive and huge bodies with pinheads like in these males. TBH they don't look like anything special to me. This male for comparison was said to be 70kg https://imgur.com/lNByAj9 And he looks as impressive as these two IMO. It always comes down to body dimensions and that is usually impossible to tell without something to scale.  (02-06-2022, 08:04 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote: These are the giant males that roam in Northern Iran. I've never seen leopards with so massive and huge bodies with pinheads like in these males. I can't see the images, it says that do not exist anymore. However I am agree with Pckt, with no referece to scale, any leopard (or any animal, actually) can be of the weight and size that we want, and human mind is very tricky. From what I know, there are very few leopards over 90 kg, most are about 50 - 70 kg, depending of the population. Also, Persian leopards are flufy and may be estimated to have bigger weights than the real ones. 
@Pckts
Really? They don't look anything special? Are you telling me they're average-sized? Also the one you posted is Borna/M3 and was longer than a 75kg and he wasn't even fully mature. Also keep in mind they said he was at least 70kg. This is what they said about him on their website: Quote:He was the largest leopard we investigated there and was famous among visitors to the park due to the stunning pictures so many were able to take of him. It's the same source where you got the 70kg claim from (although you didn't notice the "at least" part) plus that same source stated males are generally around 67kg. Meanwhile they caught a 75kg male as well so it's impossible for him to be 70kg since Borna/M3 was the largest according to them. Furthermore the ones LoveAnimals posted are 99% bigger. The second one with the wild boar kill originates from the same place as Borna/M3 and 75kg male M4 (Tandoureh National Park) so if I were to be conservative, i'd say he's similar in size. However, I think he's bigger since the wild boar kill gives perspective (it's clearly an adult wild boar and they're large in Iran). The second one originates from the Hyrcanian forest in Northern Iran and here you find the absolute biggest Persian males. The biggest Persian skulls originate from this part of Iran, same goes for weight data. While we can't tell his measurements (height, etc), you can clearly see it's a juggernaut of a leopard. A very bulky male. @GuateGojira Here are links of the leopards LoveAnimals posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjtGMa-hy_k https://imgur.com/gallery/uXtaU6Q Anyway, I agree and disagree at the same time with you regarding this: Quote:there are very few leopards over 90 kg, most are about 50 - 70 kg, depending of the population. While generally true, +90kg males are more commonly found in parts where leopards grew very big such as Iran. Remember the study Patterns of sexual dimorphism in the Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor) and implications for sex differentiation (2014) where they gathered weights across the whole country of Iran (= most randomly selection there is). Out of 22 males, 4 males weighed more than 90kg which is almost one out of five. On average yes most males will weigh between 50kg-70kg. (02-08-2022, 12:18 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts Yeah, considering that is exactly what I wrote. Neither specimen looks to be anything special to me. In regards to the male I posted "M3", we all know the measurements claim was over the curves as well as him being between 4-6 years old in 2015 not to mention him having a longer BL than M2 or M1. He's a good sized male and said to be 70kg Bickering over it saying "at least 70kg" means nothing, 70/75kg does it really matter? He's not near 100kg and looks more impressive to me than either of the Leopards posted. Not to mention if you're saying one comes from the same place and they said M3 was the largest in that region, how can you say the other is more impressive? Lastly, the study you quote didn't measure any of their own cats specific to that study, it's just a collection of data. The idea that 1/5 Leopards measured reached more than 90kg is misleading. Not to mention Mohammad Farhadinia specifically states that males in the North in their prime weigh around 70kg and Kambiz states the largest male he knows of was 88kg from the Caspian Hyrcanian to go along with the amputated leopard. Farhadinia also states the heaviest males were all under 90kg, between 75-88kg. Not to mention, if you're speaking about this table?  *This image is copyright of its original author There are 25 males listed not including the amputated male and only 3 are within the 90-95 range. The study mentioned only lists 21 so they probably excluded a male or two from the above table but since it's max is only 91kg's it's very possible that only 1 male reached 91kg and all others fell under that weight. (02-08-2022, 12:18 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @GuateGojira Like I said, most of the large leopard populations shows that males weight between 50 - 70 kg. However, if you check my post I never said that especifically the Persian leopards weighed in that range. The average male weight 65.8 kg which is the biggest average of the leopard subspecies, as far I remember. Now, on the sample of 21 males, 3 weighed over 90 kg (14.3%) and a total of 8 males that weight between 75 to 95 kg (38%). So there is no doubt that this population produce large males, but we can't know the weight of the leopards in the images because there is not reference. I can estimate them between 70-80 kg but is just a simple guess. Is like the people that swear that there are 300 kg Amur tigers in these days based in pictures, but probably they weight much less. (02-07-2022, 11:07 PM)Pckts Wrote: TBH they don't look like anything special to me.That would make totally sense if that male was weighed to be just 70 kg, thing it wasn't as that's just a visual estimate. The "Said to be" doesn't give us an idea of how it really weighed as visual estimates are never going to be real good ones (same reason why I said "in my opinion these are 90-100+"). It also should be noted that the original source said "at least 70 kgs", aka that 70 kg would be likely a LOW estimate because anyone knows that (at least) means it could have weighed more. Now if you are using this visual estimate of that "at least 70 kg male" as a kind of proof then you should 100% agree with Vin Diesel being 97 kg, as that wasn't actually just "visual estimated" by a photographer but weighed twice by the rangers, once 84 kgish and later 97 kgish. The same thing can be said for that 95 kg (wrongly said to be 115 kg) male that didn't look anything close to 90 kg from that angle when it was lying on the table for the vets to control him. Whereas in another angle it looked perfectly the same size as that unfortunate and unlucky 94 kg jaguar that was sadly ran over by a truck. But at first sight, that leopard looked nothing close to 90+ kgs right? But it did weigh that much. And it was almost 100 kg. So again, the 95 kg leopard thing is the proof that visual estimates can be totally off, both in a way that favors my claim both in a way that could go against my claim. Hence why I always say "in my opinion" I could do this comparison with an actually weighed 80+ kg male, Mawenzi. He was in fact weighed to be a whooping 83 kg making him the largest living male in the whole Okonjima reserve although historically another male beats him for 1 kg more. Anyway, here's 83 kg Mawenzi :  *This image is copyright of its original author I'm sorry but no way on earth these males are going to be lighter than him, their bodies are too bulky and almost bloated to be estimated at around 70 kgs, as Mawenzi doesn't look as massive as them. Now here's an actually weighed 88 kg male, which is literally around 90 kg.  *This image is copyright of its original author He's massive and bulky, you're telling me that those males aren't at least in his tier? Now with the long fur coat claim, it's not like with tibetan mastiffs that are for real the animals that have a so extremely long coat and fluffy body hair that makes them way larger than they are, because their body shapes aren't visible because of the fluffy coat that makes their torso, back and shoulders invisible. With cats it's different, you can CLEARLY see the enormous body of the leopard and its shape, also when it lays down the cat has skin folds and the edges of the belly and torso that follow precise curves when resting on the ground, confirming that it is definitely body mass and probably also a little of fat instead of "just hair". It also should be noted that cats that live in cold habitats have fat accumulation, thing that happens in siberian tigers, Amur leopards and Canadian-Patagonia cougars. So I'm pretty sure it's also a bit of fat, rather than its massive appearance. To compare, this is estimated 95-100 kg Dark from Patagonia and 110 kg estimated El Loco always from Patagonia, they are estimates yes but looks everyone on these forums sees them as reliable, so do I.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Now a weighed (not estimated) 99 kg record male from Alberta  *This image is copyright of its original author Sorry but if these cougars are for real 90-100+ kgs then anyone who says these leopards are nothing special must lack glasses, or probably lives in some weird fantasy.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author The last images show how big its frame is, damn  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Looks almost a captive overfed cat, To me, they are easily over 90 kg. The fact that there are just 550+ persian leopards maybe 800+ at best and that we have already found 3/4 males over 90 kg and several ones in the 75-88 kg range the chances of approaching 100+ kg males are very well possible. If these leopards look like 70 kgs then what will a 90+ kg one look like? Godzilla sized? You must be seriously overrating how impressive an average specimen looks like to say that male is just 70 kg. It's DEFINITELY well over the average size. Of course my estimate is just my personal take and I'm not sharing that as a sheer fact, it's my opinion. What is not my opinion and I think it's a fact (shared by many) is that the leopards I've sent are nothing compared to a typical 65-70 kg leopard They don't differ imo too much (in build) from this estimated 90-100 kg male from the Aberdares.  *This image is copyright of its original author
@Pckts@guate
Quote:Yeah, considering that is exactly what I wrote. Neither specimen looks to be anything special to me. So your answer is yes to my question (them being average-sized)? Quote:In regards to the male I posted "M3", we all know the measurements claim was over the curves as well as him being between 4-6 years old in 2015 not to mention him having a longer BL than M2 or M1. He's a good sized male and said to be 70kg Were the others measured differently then? I suppose not. M3 was longer, period. Heck, even M2 was almost identical to M4 but they didn't weigh him. Chances are he was as big as M4 (75kg). They stated M3 to be the biggest they had caught and again on paper the heaviest one was M4 with 75kg so he's certainly not 70kg. Quote:Bickering over it saying "at least 70kg" means nothing, 70/75kg does it really matter? It does matter since you tag M3 with a 70kg label whereas he's not. They didn't measure him according to the study GPS collars reveal trans-boundary movements by Persian leopards in Iran. Then again they claim he was the biggest male they caught in the area so he certainly weighs more than 75kg. Quote:He's not near 100kg and looks more impressive to me than either of the Leopards posted. First you said he was as impressive as the males LoveAnimals posted and now M3 suddenly becomes more impressive? Quote:Not to mention if you're saying one comes from the same place and they said M3 was the largest in that region, how can you say the other is more impressive? The one from the Youtube video is too from Tandoureh National park yes, just like M3, M4, ... On paper M4 is/was the largest in that region although again M3 was claimed to be the largest. I explained why the 'Youtube one' is more impressive; the adult wild boar kill says enough (i.e. perspective) IMO plus he looks bigger (e.g. ears are smaller relative to his head). Enough indicators to assume he's bigger than M3 which according to you is slightly above the average for Iranian males (66kg vs 70kg). Weird for a good sized Persian male to just weigh 70kg don't you think? Quote:Lastly, the study you quote didn't measure any of their own cats specific to that study, it's just a collection of data. The idea that 1/5 Leopards measured reached more than 90kg is misleading. This is why I explicitly said it was the most randomly selection there is since they didn't care about specific populations. You know very well by now that they're bigger in Northern Iran and smaller elsewhere (especially Southern/Central Iran). The probability of a +90kg Persian male is much higher in Northern Iran than elsewhere. There are circa 550 and 850 Persian leopards in Iran. Of course not 1/5 are 90kg since it includes males, females and young ones. But in Northern Iran I can guarantee you that indeed 1/5 of the males will be +90kg. Quote:Not to mention Mohammad Farhadinia specifically states that males in the North in their prime weigh around 70kg Pretty sure he's talking about averages just like those 4 prime males from Phinda Game Reserve (KwaZulu-Natal province in South Africa) weighed 72kg. I seriously doubt prime males from Northern Iran weigh just 70kg which is slightly more than the general average weight for Iranian males. Quote:and Kambiz states the largest male he knows of was 88kg from the Caspian Hyrcanian to go along with the amputated leopard. Farhadinia also states the heaviest males were all under 90kg, between 75-88kg. Again we got multiple males weighing more than 90kg despite the small sample and the weights being gathered from a whole country rather than a specific population. They literally gathered 0,06% (850 individuals at max) of the Persian leopard weights in Iran and even then 4 males weighed +90kg. It's an extremely small sample + a random selection considering weight data was gathered across the whole country of Iran. In other words, the figures would be more impressive if they were solely from Northern Iran. It would've been the equivalent of Pantanal jaguars. Those jaguars are the biggest in the world and at the same time the most studied one as well. All we need is more specific data regarding Northern Iranian leopard. Unfortunately we lack this data and even then +80kg males appear more common in Northern Iran. Quote:So in closing, claiming those males as 90/100kg Males is most likely an exaggeration. Maybe, but what you did is exactly the opposite. You called them nothing special after all. That's called downgrading. (02-08-2022, 01:07 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: The average male weight 65.8 kg which is the biggest average of the leopard subspecies, as far I remember.I would very like to know how much this average would change if that 95 kg euthanized male was included. Up to 67 kg maybe? That's still very impressive, like highly impressive. That would be almost 70 kg average despite including Persian leopards from their whole geographical range including the southern iranian males that have wolf-sized specimens of like 45-50 kg. If we did two separated samples for Northern males and Southern males like for tigers, that there are North Indian tigers and central ones, how much would the northern males average in your opinion? My guess is that they would equal Cougars, at around 70-72 kgish. I might make a whole average Persian leopard sample with Charger and include all leopard wright's ever recorded from Persia. I will probably share it as I did with that jaguar size chart (02-08-2022, 02:08 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:(02-07-2022, 11:07 PM)Pckts Wrote: TBH they don't look like anything special to me.That would make totally sense if that male was weighed to be just 70 kg, thing it wasn't as that's just a visual estimate. Quote:Now if you are using this visual estimate of that "at least 70 kg male" as a kind of proof then you should 100% agree with Vin Diesel being 97 kg, as that wasn't actually just "visual estimated" by a photographer but weighed twice by the rangers, once 84 kgish and later 97 kgish.Vin Diesel was never weighed, at least nothing verified. Quote:I'm sorry but no way on earth these males are going to be lighter than him, their bodies are too bulky and almost bloated to be estimated at around 70 kgs, as Mawenzi doesn't look as massive as them.Again, images mean little without dimensions. And if you're using the word "bloated" to describe one, that is pretty much saying it seems fat while the other has a more dense musculature. (02-08-2022, 02:12 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts@guate "But in Northern Iran I can guarantee you that indeed 1/5 of the males will be +90kg." No you cant, you have one cat at 91kg's and all others beneath that weight. What you can pretty much guarantee is that more often than not Leopards weighed from the north are going to be less than 90kg's and that's it. (02-08-2022, 02:14 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: I would very like to know how much this average would change if that 95 kg euthanized male was included. Up to 67 kg maybe? That's still very impressive, like highly impressive. That would be almost 70 kg average despite including Persian leopards from their whole geographical range including the southern iranian males that have wolf-sized specimens of like 45-50 kg. If we did two separated samples for Northern males and Southern males like for tigers, that there are North Indian tigers and central ones, how much would the northern males average in your opinion? My guess is that they would equal Cougars, at around 70-72 kgish. Actually on Persian leopards I ony focused in the document of Farhadinia et al. (2014) and leave it like that. Other posters will have more information about these specimens. Here is the graphic about the specimens used in that document, my be useful:  *This image is copyright of its original author This other table, from another document and for specimens actually captured by scientists, my be useful too:  *This image is copyright of its original author And finally this is a very old comparative image that I made years ago, may be useful too:  *This image is copyright of its original author If they include the 95 kg male probably the average will be about 66 - 66.5 kg, not to much variation, but I am just guessing. All depends of the sample itself and as you can see, we don't have the individual weights. (02-08-2022, 02:27 AM)Pckts Wrote: Vin Diesel was never weighed, at least nothing verified.I'm sure once you posted on Modern weights and measurements of wild leopards a copied and pasted message from somewhere, where it said it was weighed before 84 kg, then there was a phrase of "he's a 97 kg man eater". Where did you get those messages from? I've been looking on forums and apps like Facebook but nothing, was it deleted? Anyway I'm not saying it's something verified, hence why I would say everywhere "Vin Diesel weighed 97 kg" in the same way I say "Mawenzi is 83 kg". Thing I'm not of course doing, I would say "he was said to be..." That's because it's nothing verified. It could be reliable when looking at him when in his prime. But as likely or reliable he could be, it's not verified. The reason why I brought him up is because of the "at least 70 kg" male. Likewise, I said that automatically if you consider reliable that at least 70kg male that was just guess estimated at sight, you shouldn't find that unreliable Vin Diesel that was actually captured and collared by rangers (so it's likely that it was weighed aswll). Whereas I'm sure that male was never ever captured. And still, at least 70 kgs means that 70 kg is a low estimate. That's what least means. It would have said "at best" or at "max" if they were guess estimating it's upper estimate. (02-08-2022, 02:27 AM)Pckts Wrote: Again, images mean little without dimensions. And if you're using the word "bloated" to describe one, that is pretty much saying it seems fat while the other has a more dense musculature. Same reason why also the "at least 70 kg" male can be off as estimate. As it could probably weigh more. Same thing also when mentioning the 95 kg confirmed male that from a flattering angle looked like 60+kgish. By the way, with bloated I mean with a very wide and enormous body frame. It was for the Mawenzi comparison, while Mawenzi from that image looked a bit of slender (talking about waists) for an 80+ pushing male, that male i posted below while comparing it to cougars it looks bloated in comparison, as it's belly and torso falls deeper and closer to the ground while compared to Mawenzi. And yes, there might be a bit of fat because of the cold climates. And proportionally yes you're also right that there are also males that might have a more dense musculature when compared to Iranian males as well. In my opinion when it comes to musculature and build Aberdare leopards take the cake. They have very wide and round skulls compared to most leopard populations. I don't know your opinion about them, but they are very impressive. The fact that they don't even need fat accumulation to look enormous (still Iranian males are enormous and massive, with or without fat, but still) because of their tropical habitats. IMO the largest African population roams in kenya highlands. |
| Users browsing this thread: |
| 43 Guest(s) |