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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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 (12-23-2018, 12:31 PM)peter Wrote:(12-22-2018, 11:43 PM)johnny rex Wrote:(12-17-2018, 02:21 PM)peter Wrote:(12-17-2018, 01:02 PM)johnny rex Wrote: Still no update from Altai's skull @peter ? I wonder if those skulls come from extra-large Ussuri/Amur/Siberian tigers or not. Ussuri tigers seem to have variations on their physical characteristics. Tigers like Bimbo and Marecek from the Oasis of Siberian Tiger have big skull in relation to their body, while others have small skull in relation to their body. Most videos showing Siberian tigers with lions together show that Siberian tigers have bigger head than lions, although I've also seen videos where some lions look like they have longer head than some Siberians. Those tigers from Kaziranga also look like they possess some of the biggest skull of modern big cats unlike some Bengal tigers that have much larger body compared to their skull, but without measurements taken from them we can only make guesstimations. 
DHOLE (CUON ALPINUS) AS PART OF AMUR TIGER'S FAUNA COMPLEX
Dhole or Indian wild dog is probably the only mammal specie extinct from the forests of Russian Ussuriland. Ussuri dhole was the largest of all subspecies with long winter hair and once inhabited the southern parts of Primorskij region. Its start desapiaring during 20th century for not very clear reasons and was last spotted in 50's.  *This image is copyright of its original author Probably the only Usuri dhole trophy survived:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author DECLINE OF THE DHOLE AS RESULT OF THE DECLINE OF AMUR TIGER AND RISE OF THE GREY WOLF IN RFE. STRANGE TRYANGLE. Dholes are canids known to be bold towards big cats (tigers and leopards) and very shy and defensive towards other canids (especially grey wolves). In same time Amur tiger is notorious for his hostility and untolerance towards the grey wolves sometimes bordering a genocidal behavior. In places with high density of Amur tigers wolves almost completely disappear because tiger probably consider them as a prime competitor hunting same prey. During 19th century when tigers were plenty travelers in Russian Ussuriland almost didn't find any wolves. But when during 20th century Amur tigers were decapitated for first time wolves start appearing in large quantities in Sihote Alin mountains literaly invading it. Exactly in this period start decline and extinction of the dholes in Ussuriland. Is this coincidence? Probably not. Since dholes have never been persistently hunted by people and they inhabited mainly remote areas unsuitable for agriculture some Russian scientists sujest one of the main reasons for the decline of the Indian wild dogs in RFE was the rise of the grey wolf in 20th century as result of the decline of Amur tiger. Northern wolves as larger and more powerfull canids start pressing dholes. Tiger and dhole are mutualy tolerable species and they wonderfully coexist in same ecosystem. So, Amur tigers was a "guardian" of the Indian wild dogs and when it disappeared swiftly deseapeared the dholes. The most interesting is that dholes themselves are much bolder, sometimes said even aggressive toward tigers than wolves. Probably one day Indian wild dog has to be re-introduced in Sihote Alin mountains, instead of exinct Ussuri subspecie could be used long haired dholes from Tibet (China). @peter what do you think? Once upon a time Russian Far East was second in the planet after India in terms of variety of big predators: tiger, leopard, brown bear, Asiatic black bear, grey wolf, dhole, lynx and wolverine. 
I think I have seen some of these images here already, but here is an official publication regarding tigers in the Himalayas:
First photographic record of tiger presence at higher elevations of the Mishmi Hills in the Eastern Himalayan Biodiversity Hotspot, Arunachal Pradesh, India
@BorneanTiger in the work "Caspian tiger - analysis of current situation" by O. Tcaruk & U. Tcukin, p. 17 is written than in 1839 in the area of Altay mountain, village Setovka was killed a massive Caspian tiger weighting 290 kg. "The killed tiger was thoroughtly measured and weighted. The beast was quite bulky, weighted 290 kg, total lendth including tail - 280 cm, without tail 180 cm, shoulder height - 1 m., circle of front paw - 66 cm, abdomen - 115 cm. About that case was informed Academy of sciences in St. Petersburg, from there by order of Imperor Nicholas I were send 1 thousand rubbles to make a taxidermic trophy from this unseen in Altai monster. Then from the skin was made a tacidermic specimen. But famous scientist Alfred Brehm making a trip in 1876 through Western Siberia and Kazahstan saw in the museum not one but two specimens of tigers killed in Altai"
https://wwf.ru/upload/iblock/058/obzorny...zbruss.pdf "В декабре 1925 года газета "Звезда Алтая" напечатала быль 1839 года, в которой рассказывалось об охоте на туранского тигра рядом с деревней Сетовка Бийского уезда (сейчас это село в Советском районе) 15 октября 1839 года. Убитого тигра тщательно измерили и взвесили. Зверь оказался весьма упитанным, он потянул на 290 килограммов, длина с хвостом его была 2 метра 80 сантиметров, а без хвоста - 1 метр 80 сантиметров, высота от лап до хребта была один метр, окружность передней лапы - 66 сантиметров, окружность живота - 1 метр 15 сантиметров. Об этом случае сообщили в Петербург, в Академию наук, оттуда по указанию Николая I выслали на создание чучела невиданного на Алтае зверя тысячу рублей. Затем из шкуры убитого у Сетовки тигра было сделано чучело. Однако известный ученый Альфред Брем, совершивший в 1876 году путешествие по Западной Сибири и Казахстану, видел в музее чучело не одного, а двух тигров, убитых на Алтае." Imperial Russian soldiers hunting tiger in Central Asia, 19th century. @Rishi if you don't mind would be so kind to increase the size of this image because its looks quite fascinating.  *This image is copyright of its original author Here is 50 pages long "Program of Reintroduction of tiger in Kazahstan", PDF: https://wwf.ru/upload/iblock/c7e/tigerprogrkaz_03_2015_russ.pdf  (12-20-2018, 01:39 PM)peter Wrote:(12-20-2018, 07:11 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(12-19-2018, 08:21 PM)peter Wrote: And here's the, alleged, former Imperial Hunting Reserve (from 'The Tiger's Claw', M.L. Taylor, 1956): Thank you for the clarification @peter. Now that we see the original paper, we can be sure that there is no reference about any "Indian tiger" in the reserve. Pretty interesting to know from where she actually got that idea. So, NO mix between Indian and Russian tigers in Manchuria, that is perfect.  
(12-22-2018, 11:03 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: The Caspian tiger was no joke: About the Caspian tiger size: According with Mazák (1981), the Amur-Bengal-Caspian tigers are the biggest cats in modern times and rank about the biggest felids in history (modern and prehistoric). Now, regarding the Caspian tigers, the information is very poor and only a few measurements and weights are reliable. In the list of measurements presented by Heptner & Sludskii (1992), most of the measurements were taken "over the curves" and other were from "skins", the last ones are completelly unreliable. However, some of the measurements were taken "between pegs" and its sizes are no different from those from India and Russia, althought the largest specimens are not as large as its cousins from the other populations. Now, the big problem with the Caspian tigers is that the sample of "reliable" measurements and weights is very small, from my investigation I could found only 3 males and 5 females reliable measured "bewteen pegs" and only 6 weights (3 males and 3 females) that we can quote correctly. Mazák also found very few skulls, only 7 males and 10 females. With such a small sample is very dificult to get a true idea of the maximum size for this tiger population. I will quote again one of my comparative images. The next one is about the largest tiger subspecies/populations, but take in count that need to be updated as the subspecies are no longer three but only one for the three populations (Panthera tigris tigris - mainland tiger subspecies) and the sample of Bengal tigers is bigger. Also, in the skull sections, we must exclude the Bengal tiger skull of 413 mm as is no longer reliable and also the skull of 385 mm from the Caspian population, as Mazák (1983-2013) did investigate the skull and found that it was destroyed, also that the measurements do not match so is probably also unreliable. Now, in the section of the measurements of the Caspian tiger, the information is exactly the same and I dare to say, it is the most accurate collection that you will found in the web or book until now:  *This image is copyright of its original author The sample of skulls came directly from Mazák (1983-2013), and probably exhaust all the skull available from this subspecies/population. Here is the original:  *This image is copyright of its original author So, altough the Caspian tigers seems to be smaller than the Bengal and Amur population, this is not exactly correct, as the sample is very small and probably we will never know the biggest males from this population. These pictures are particularly special:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author This male probably was as large as the largest Bengal tiger of Brander or the largest Amur tiger reported by Mazák (the record of Jankovsky), even if the guy in the picture is not particularly tall. However, we can also guess if this specimen is already stuffed, in that case it will not represent its real size, just like these picture:  *This image is copyright of its original author We can see that this is just a skin, it do not represent the real size of the specimen. In conclution, Caspian tigers were big, based in the skull it was slightly bigger than the Indochina tigers and smaller than Bengal/Amur ones, but with such a small samples, there is the posibility that the largest specimens probably reached the same size, but this last is just my especulation. 
THE FUTURE OF THE AMUR TIGER ACCORDING TO DMITRY PIKUNOV - PART III
f - The downside of success In many documents published after 1992, researchers underline that Amur tigers thrive in relatively empty districts. In districts in which human activity is prominent, they do not. As a result of the increase of human activity in a number of districts, Amur tigers moved to empty districts (in the north) or to protected areas. In the sixties, seventies and early eighties of the previous century, the increase in the number of tigers was limited. In the decades that followed, growth accelerated. In the protected areas, the limits were reached. That was not the only problem: " ... The results of monitoring in 1995-1996 and 2005 confirmed that these predators continue to exist at the maximum population density in the protected areas. This pattern was observed in almost all of the previous counts, but it was less pronounced. Simultaneously, it became more apparent that reserves in small areas (i.e., Sichote-Alin, 401.600 ha; Lazovsky, 150,000 ha; and Ussurisky, 40,400 ha) will not be able to solve the problem of tiger conservation ... due to the disunity of those areas. The solution to this problem requires a system of large reserves, including protected areas, that are connected with each other. Unfortunately, given the current conditions, it does not seem possible to maintain a single, integrated tiger population numbering 450-500 mature individuals. There are no remaining appropiate continuous habitats in the Sichote-Alin that could maintain such a population. Therefore, the only way to ensure the long-term preservation of the integrity of the Ussuri taiga natural complex (of which the Siberian tiger is an essential component) is to create two new protected areas in the south of the Far East ... " (Pikunov, 2014, pp. 8). g - Summary of the developments in the period 1930-2015 01 - Amur tigers were nearly hunted to extinction in the thirties and forties of the previous century. In 1940, there were only 20-30 tigers left in the entire Russian Far East. 02 - The only region where Amur tigers survived the unslaught was the southeastern part of Sichote-Alin. 03 - As a result of measures taken in fourties and fifties of the previous century, the number of tigers slowly increased. 04 - In spite of the increase in numbers, the territory used by tigers significantly decreased in the sixties. 05 - After 1970, as a result of protective measures, the territory used by tigers started to increase. 06 - Although the situation improved in the seventies, more than 130 tigers died in that decade alone. Most (78) were shot (by poachers or with permits), 37 cubs were captured alive for zoos (the ban on capturing cubs apparently had been lifted or softened) and 15 died of natural causes. 07 - In 1979, tigers occupied only two regions in Sichote-Alin: the southeastern part of the Sichote-Alin mountain range and the extreme southwestern part of Primorsky Krai. The southwestern part is separated from the northern part by a highway, a railroad and vast open spaces near Lake Khanka. Movements of tigers between both regions have not been registered in the seventies. As a result, two subpopulations developed in Primorsky Krai. 08 - The extreme southwestern part of Primorsky Krai has the best tiger habitat. The problem is that human activity in that regio is more intense than elsewhere in Sichote-Alin. As a result, tigers started moving to the northern part of Primorsky Krai once again. They reached the southern districts of the Khabarovski Krai and moved further north. The map below shows they reached Komsomolsk na Amure, well north of Khabarovsk. 09 - Litter numbers and cub safety largely depends on the presence of humans. Tigers also know. This is why many females in particular moved into protected zones. This pattern became more apparent as the number of tigers increased. As a result of the increase in numbers, tiger density in the protected zones increased significantly. 10 - As a result of the increase in the number of tigers, it became clear that the number of reserves is too limited. Most of the reserves are too small as well. Another problem is they are not connected. As there are no corridors, tigers moving out of the protected zones in search of territory can't always avoid humans. Most conflicts between tigers and humans could be a result of a lack of protected zones and corridors. 11 - The current conditions in Sichote-Alin do not allow for a single, integrated population of 400-500 mature tigers. The only way to ensure a long-term solution is to create two new protected areas in the southern part of Sichote-Alin. 12 - The northern buffer zone should include the entire area of the remaining middle course of the Bikin river (Pozharsky district), the basins of the Large Ussurska right tributaries (Krasnoarmejskiy district), the Sichote-Alin Reserve, the northeastern part of the Dalnerechensky district and the entire part of the Terneisky district to the Maksimova river basin. This area is approximately 35,000 square km. The southern buffer zone should encompass the Lazovsky and Olginsky districts, the Lazovsky Reserve and the adjacent parts of the Partyzansky and Kavalerovsky districts. This area is approximately 15,000 square km. In the proposed new protected zones, logging and hunting should be banned completely. It's also important to improve the level of game management in order to increase the number of ungulates. 13 - Here's a map showing 4 of reserves (in green) in Sichote-Alin in 2000. As you can see, most of them are too small. They also are too far apart from each other. No corridors as well:  *This image is copyright of its original author Here's map showing the two new zones proposed in Pikunov's article. The northern buffer zone is in red, whereas the southern is in green. It's a bit primitive, but it will give you a rough idea:  *This image is copyright of its original author 14 - The tiger counts in 1984-1985, 1995-1996 and 2004-2005 clearly show that tigers have expanded their range to the north of the Primorsky Krai. They also settled in the southern part of the Khabarovsky Krai. Simultaneously, reductions in tiger numbers have occurred in the central and southern regions of the Primorsky Krai. The reason is these regions have become more accessible for humans. 15 - In the reserves and other protected zones, tiger densities have reached the limit. The reason tigers moved into the reserves and protected zones is " ... degradation and detorioration of the habitats outside the protected zones ... " (Pikunov, 2014, pp. 10). As a result of new roads, illegal logging and poaching increased. 16 - Amur tigers occupied about 160,000 square km. in 2014. The proposed new protected zones " ... in combination with the existing protective areas, represent the minimum habitat that is absolutely necessary to guarantee the long-term preservation of the landscape and its constituent elements in the face of radical restructuring of the natural environment of the area of the Amur tiger in the future ... " (Pikunov, 2014, pp. 10). 17 - Two more maps showing the progress that has been made in the period 1970-2015. Tiger footprint density (left) and number of individuals (right):  *This image is copyright of its original author Tiger distribution 2015:  *This image is copyright of its original author h - Summary In 1858 (Treaty of Aygun) and 1860 (Treaty of Peking), Russia aquired the region now known as the Russian Far East. It was enormous in size and covered by a 'sea of forest'. The initial aim was to colonize it in the way the west had been colonized. Reality however quickly overtook ambition. The Chinese living in the new territories didn't quite agree with the transition. Not a few left the fields and decided for a very different way of life. Moving from one place to another all the time, they robbed many settlers and hunters. Others decided for a new way of hunting. Arseniev and Dersu discovered pitfalls exceeding a km. in length. The new settlers faced another problem in that the methods developed to cultivate wild country in western Europe and western Russia proved inadequate in the Russian Far East. As a result, they, like the Chinese, often decided for a different way of life. The destruction was of such proportions, that the Russian elites decided to intervene in the last decades of the 19th century. Although the measures taken had an effect, the destruction continued. In the first decade of the 20th century, Arseniev and Dersu thought that everything would be gone in a few decades. They were right. In the late thirties, there were 20-30 tigers left in the entire Russian Far East. Not long after Kaplanov rang the bell, WWII erupted. Those involved in destruction in some way or another were hunted down, expelled or drafted. The border was closed and measures were taken to protect tigers. Kaplanov never knew about the effect of his warning. In 1943, he was killed (see -i-). In 1947, hunting was banned. A decade later, a ban on capturing cubs was installed. Hunters were replaced by biologists and zoologists. Articles and books were published and measures were taken to protect the great natural wealth of the Russian Far East. It had an effect. Although tigers lost territory until 1970, the population slowly recovered from the unslaught. In the last decade of the 20th century, there were more than 400 tigers in the Russian Far East. From there, they spread to the extreme east of China. Numberwise, Amur tigers have largely recovered. The problem is there is no room to accomodate a population of 500 mature individuals in one large reserve. Another problem is human activity in quite a number of districts. As it has a significant effect on litter size and survival rates of young tigers, researchers proposed to add two new protected zones in the Primorsky Krai. If the proposal will be accepted, Amur tigers have a future. The last problem that needs to be addressed is genetic depletion. As a result of the destruction, the gene pool was largely destroyed. One result is that the amount of individual variation is more limited than in other tiger subspecies. Furthermore, Amur tigers are smaller than a century ago. The only way to address some of the problems is to use the genes of captive tigers. It could result in more variety. i - Unsung heroes The Russians saved an iconic species from extinction. A remarkable effort, given the conditions in the Russian Far East in the period 1860-2015. The recovery of the Amur tiger is the ultimate result of the efforts of those involved in conservation in some way or another. There are many unsung heroes. Here's a bit more on some of them. 1 - Russian zapovedniks. An extensive and very interesting overview: http://www.wildnet.ru/images/phocagallery/2016/56/7/V.Stepanickiy%20100%20Years%20of%20Russian%20ZAPOVEDNIKS%20Past,%20Present%20and%20Future.pdf 2 - V.K. Arseniev. He wrote 'Dersu the Trapper', first published in 1941. I have the new English translation published in 1996. This is from the new English translation: " ... Vladimir Klavdievich Arseniev (1872-1930) undertook twelve major scientific expeditions between 1902 and 1930 in the Siberian Far East, and authored some sixty works on the geography and ethnography of the region. Among these, 'Dersu the Trapper' has earned a priviliged place in Russian literature. In this Russian counterpart of 'The Journals of Lewis and Clark' and the novels of James Fenimore Cooper, Arseniev combines the precise observations of a naturalist with an exciting narrative of real-life adventure. Arseniev describes three explorations in the Ussurian taiga along the Sea of Japan above Vladivostok, beginning with his first encounter of the solitary aboriginal hunter named Dersu, a member of the Gold tribe, who thereafter becomes his guide. Each expedition is beset with hardship and danger: through blizzard and flood and assorted deprivations, these two men forge an exceptional friendship in their Mutual respect for the immense grandeur of the wilderness ... " ('Dersu the Trapper', 1996). Here's a photograph of Vladimir Klavdievich Arseniev:  *This image is copyright of its original author Here's one of Dersu Uzala, taken by Arseniev:  *This image is copyright of its original author And here a photograph showing both:  *This image is copyright of its original author 3 - Lev Kaplanov. In 1941, Lev Georgiyevich Kaplanov, a very active naturalist and zoologist, became director of what is now the Lazovsky Zapovednik. A year and half later, in May 1943, he was killed: https://books.google.nl/books?id=nYU-8Qti3NcC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=Lev+Kaplanov&source=bl&ots=euFcY-7Onb&sig=9SdqWGlWiNFpfLJBPYLaPZLACx8&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi0lOexh7PfAhUGb1AKHZ3ICP8Q6AEwAXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Lev%20Kaplanov&f=false Here's a link to the English translation (A.A. Shevlakov, 2005) of 'Tiger-Deer-Moose' (first published in 1948): https://books.google.nl/books?id=nYU-8Qti3NcC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=Lev+Kaplanov&source=bl&ots=euFcY-7Onb&sig=9SdqWGlWiNFpfLJBPYLaPZLACx8&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi0lOexh7PfAhUGb1AKHZ3ICP8Q6AEwAXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Lev%20Kaplanov&f=false 4 - D. Pikunov. The series on Dmitry Pikunov should tell you something about his status. Pikunov stood out in more than one way, but he was a big cat authority foremost. His proposal on two new protected zones, discussed in this post, wasn't the only one. Here are a few ideas on tiger corridors. It was published in 1996: http://www.plexusowls.com/PDFs/tiger_corridors.pdf 5 - D. Miquelle and L. Kerley have been in the Russian Far East for a long time. They know about Amur tigers. Here's two nice photographs:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author j - Research in the Russian Far East - A summary I found this overview on the site of the Amur Tiger Programme. It's well written and very interesting:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author k - China I'll do one more on Pikunov to finish the series. In the last part (part IV), the new park in the northeastern part of China will be discussed.
A FEW PICTURES
1 - Close to Lazo (Sergei Bereznuk):  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author 2 - Anti-poaching team (Sergei Bereznuk, front left)  *This image is copyright of its original author 3 - Winter 2010-2011 (camera trap, L. Kerley, but on the site of Sergei Bereznuk). Male Amur tiger:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
So the wishes of Pikunov became partialy truth. A couple of years ago was created the largest tiger protected aria in Russia and probably in the world - Bikin national park with territory of 11 600 sq.km, its 3 times larger than Sihote Alin state reserve (4000 sq km) and has a area larger than Yelloowstone, in the vast virgin forests of Bikin could be places where have never stepped a foot of "white man". Creation of Bikin NP is probably the most significant event in the history of amur tiger protection in the last 70 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikin_National_Park  *This image is copyright of its original author A newly created tiger protected areas include: - Anyusky national park (Habarovskij region, created 1999) - 4 294 sq.km. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anyuysky_National_Park - Zov tigra national park - 834 sq.km, created 2007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zov_Tigra_National_Park - Land of the leopard NP - 2620 sq.km, created 2012 - Sredneusuriskij zakaznik - 700 sq km. Comparing with Soviet era the entire protected tiger area increased 4-5 fold and now encompass more than 20 000 sq km forests which should be 13-14% of total area of Primorskij region (168 000 sq.km). Ussuriland and Sihote Alin mountain range particularly is turning for Russia what is Alaska for United States - a vast epic wilderness preserved for the future generations.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Manchuria, 1930's, not small specimens at all.
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Two drawings, copies of original primitive photos, on the first is brown bear (sex and age not clear) killed and eaten by tiger in 1961, river Tatibe; on the second is 3 years old tiger killed and eaten by brown bear in 1956, reserve "Shuhi Pocto", Habarovski region:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author http://mur-r.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000018/st013.shtml Differences between tails of Caspian and Amur tiger:  *This image is copyright of its original author
(12-30-2018, 12:01 PM)Wolverine Wrote: Manchuria, 1930's, not small specimens at all. Tigers in Manchuria are regarded as the largest tigers of all times in some old books. In fact, the largest skull from Mazák, Baikov and the picture that Mazák received are from that area, suggesting that, in fact, the tigers is this area were probably the largest ones in the Russian Far East, comparable with the largest tigers in the Terai/Assam reagion. Great pictures and information, by the way!
The last photo in #2,005, I saw old photo of those Manchurian tigers surround by Chinese.
There is also record of male Siberian tiger in Manchuria. His chest was 150cm unlike today's Siberian tiger in wild, but he was only about 280cm long far as I remember. There was extremely huge male tiger record in North Korea, he was around 360cm long. However, Siberian tigers in Korea were generally slender from old photos. I think Siberian tigers were different in each region of Russia as well.
I personally think tigers in Terai and Assam are highly overrated. Loser males in Terai and Assam are still going to be losers even if they go to Central India. Male tigers like Wagdoh, Jai, Hairyfoot, Bamera, and other top males in other parts of India are still going to be top males even if they go to Terai and Assam.
My opinion is that all of Bengal tigers in northern India from west to east like Assam to Corbett, Terai in Nepal and India, central India like Tadoaba, Umred, and Kanha are similar size, but I do believe that there are minor difference in length/height/weight by locations and individuals. I think all of tigers in northern/central india are the same size, just Terai and Assam has more numbers of large male tigers compared to other northern India, central India, and other places of Bhutan and Nepal. I think tigers in dry or desert places like western India like Ranthambore and Sariska in Rajasthan are less bulk than other northern/central India, but still in similar size as other northern India. I saw old photo of tiger skin in Pakistan. I don't know where it came from, and it looked female, but it was actually small tiger skin. Then probably southern Indian tiger, but there is still 300 kg male tigers from old record in these areas. The smallest one is definitely Bengal tiger living in Sundarbans. However, I am not sure tigers in other places of Bangladesh since mangrove was only exist in southwestern part of Bangladesh. I don't knowthe Himalayan tiger in Bhutan and Myanmar. I remember Peter wrote that they could be the largest, but there's no verified info. I don't think they could be massively built compared to tigers in Central India and Assam after seeing many tiger photos in Bhutan and Himalaya landscapes. Anyone knows of tigers in these regions? Or how about South China tiger or Central China tiger lived near the Tibetan plateau? The North Chinese leopard is discovering high altitude near Tibet, and they even coexist with the Snow leopard in some area.
I think that you have a point. Many posts (and years) ago I discused the idea that based in the records that I had, there is practically no difference between the size of the tigers in the India Subcontinent (excluding Sundarbans). Tigers from north, central and south India are of the same body size, altough those from northern India are slightly heavier, on average, than those from Central and particularly those from South India. The ranges that I found were between 195 - 210 kg and those from the Terai top the list, althoug if we take in count those from the Gwalior region like a single population, the average is higher there!
The problem is that all that information from about 200 specimens, togheter with all the other information that I had is lost (5 years of information lost, just like that), so I no longer have the data to back up my conclutions and I need to start again, from 0. Is a long work and now I no longer have the time, so I will take the double of time for me to collect all my previous information. Now, returning to the point, I found that the heaviest specimens from all regions are about the same weight (250-260 kg) and the body dimentions are practically the same (just a few centimeters of difference). However testimonies of Dr Mel Sunquist and the great Valmik Thapar suggest that tigers in the Kaziranga park are larger that even the largest specimens from Nepal, but sadly we still don't have any data from the place. However, my conclusion about the equality of sizes in the Bengal population was partially rejected by many posters here and now that I don't have my previous evidence is very dificult to debate this. However it is interesting to note that while Nepalese tigers are, for the moment, the largest tigers captured by scientists in modern days, a recent document says that Dr Jhala estimate that tigers from Ranthambore clasify among the largest specimens from India (it doesn't say heaviests, just largest), which may suggest that the lineage of the giant tigers of Gwalior may still survive at some point. In conclution, I still believe that the tigers of India/Nepal and probably Bhutan, are "about" the same size and weight, but on average the population of the Terai and the Assam is slightly heavier. Old Amur tiger records (the few reliable ones) do match the biggest Bengal tigers populations, but now the Amur tigers are just about 10 kg heavier than the Indochinese tigers and about 10-20 kg lower than those from India/Nepal.
GuateGojira
Yes, that's what I feel. I saw many people in wildfact and others like carnivoraforum are extremely overrating Assam/Terai tigers are like Assam tigers/Terai tigers can take down the prehistoric Smilodon populator, Machairodus kabir, Machairodus giganteus, prehistoric tiger species, and other largest prehistoric felidae, short faced bear, rhino, and even asiatic elephant. However, my opinion is that they are still the same tigers as other parts of India. I highly doubt loser males from Terai and Assam would do well when they go to places like Tadoba, Ranthambore, Corbett, Kanha, Bandhavgarh, Panna, and other national parks that have notorious powerful male tigers. I am absolutely sure that male tigers like Wagdoh, Jai, Hairyfoot, Saturn, Madla, B2, Bamera, Kumbha, Star and other large and powerful male tigers are still going to be the alpha males even if they go to Terai and Assam. They may be struggle in first time since it is different habitats. Peter also said that tigers in central India were longer in average length, but tigers in Assam were heavier in average. It is on post #1,399 We also need to remember that tigers were roam the entire Asia 100 years ago, including the Bengal tigers in India subcontinent, all over the India, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh, and even eastern Myanmar. It is the same for other large mammals like elephant, rhino, water buffalo, gaur, leopard, cheetah, and any other endangered animals today. Bengal tigers in southern India...., I am not sure of tigers in south India. They do seem generally smaller and have dense stripe pattern than their family in north. Nevertheless, there are still tigers in south India would grow big as tigers in Assam and Terai. I've seen many people living near Sundarban area are arguing with people in other parts of India over the Sundarban tiger size. They would be offended if anyone tell them tigers in Sundarbans are smaller than mainland India. My belief is that other places in Bangladesh may have grown big as central India, but still smaller since it is dangerous flood area during the rainy season. There's no way tigers in northern/central Bangladesh were the same size as mangrove swamp tigers since Assam is right above the Bangladesh, and tigers were free to go anywhere back then. Rishi What's your opinion of tigers in other parts of Bangladesh outside of Sundarban? |
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