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Nkuhuma Pride
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@Ttimemarti So Ridge Nose and Purple Eye already have grandchildren through their Birmingham daughters - so they've already successfully passed on their genes. Did none of Amber Eyes' offspring from the BBoys survive? Her two Avoca daughters will be the future of the Nkuhuma pride though.
@Mapokser No, lions don't have enough self awareness or high enough cognitive function to 'sacrifice themselves', but I think a mother lioness would almost certainly do something to make sure her offspring was not caught and killed. But yes it's possible that she was just unlucky.  (02-19-2024, 08:15 PM)NLAL11 Wrote: @Ttimemarti So Ridge Nose and Purple Eye already have grandchildren through their Birmingham daughters - so they've already successfully passed on their genes. Did none of Amber Eyes' offspring from the BBoys survive? Her two Avoca daughters will be the future of the Nkuhuma pride though.Yeah a lot of the Birmingham offspring in the nkuhuma pride didn’t make it I believe it was a sickness going around not 100% no amber eyes Birmingham offspring and no chela Birmingham offspring chela doesn’t have a daughter either. I am 99% sure it was a sacrifice BUT it’s not how we think I mean her daughter vs an adults lion wouldn’t be much of a fight so she basically defended her cubs from other lions and what’s what they do but the other lions was 5 aggressive mhangenis that don’t mess around unfortunately. Othawa defended against the Birminghams remember when the nwaswitshaka stumbled upon the 3 Birmingham nkuhuma girls the subadults ran and the females fought the males all protecting their family’s 
The subs back to where their mother died, very sad:
 *This image is copyright of its original author Photo by Coman Mnisi, Singita Guide.
@Mapokser To sacrifice oneself it so make a conscious decision to die, often in order to give someone else a chance to live. Lions do not sacrifice themselves as they are not capable of making this decision. Ridge Nose did not decide to die in order to save her offspring. So no, it is not the very definition.
But they basically do but it’s not they way you are thinking I have many examples if a rival pride or a nomadic male attacks the pride what will happen if there is no dominant male and the pride has young cubs and subs. They will A run or B the mothers and aunts will fight no matter how outnumbered they are… look at what happened to the tsalala female attacekd by all 6 kambulas she was defending her cub who would’ve have been able to get away fast entire so she fought them… the othawa females skorro jr left so it left the two old females to defend the subadults from nhenha and nkuhuma it’s not a real sacrifice but that is what they are doing basically giving their lives so the young ones can live on basically or if it’s enough females in the pride theyll form a breakaway pride like ridgenose and amber eyes did to protect the 6 nkuhuma subadults from the plains camp males
 (02-20-2024, 02:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The subs back to where their mother died, very sad: Biggest concern I have now is if the PC males (their fathers) will try to protect them if the Mangheni Pride finds them as well.
@NLAL11 I can't say anything about RN as I've not seen how things played out, but regarding sacrificing, it's pretty much what sometimes happens.
When the Othawa male and 5 Mangheni lionesses attacked the Othawa pride, the younger female ran with the cubs while the 2 old females stayed to stop their foes until their family escaped, a conscious decision, a sacrifice, I can't see how you can interpret it in any other way. The same thing happened multiple times when the Birminghams arrived, the younger female would run with the cubs while the old females would confront the males, which ended with both lionesses dying. Lionesses fights to the death for their cubs sometimes, against males usually, in fights they can't win. This is not anthropomorphism but pretty much what happens. Your argument that they can't rationalise such decision makes no sense. Male lions flee when they think they aren't strong enough to defend their territory, because they know the opposition is stronger and losing their lives for a territory isn't worth it, but lionesses sometimes fight even if they have no chance to win, because they know they'll be granting the cubs a chance to escape, it's a sacrifice.
@Mwk85 some fathers would if they are present during the fight, but since this pride was borderline abandoned by the PCM and considering how they were in the area but never rushed to save RN, I would think they's probably just ignore it and let the Mangheni do thei thing.
Though we never know, these guys are affectionate with their cubs much more than an average male is, we've seen them playing with Mangheni cubs and hugging Ximhungwe cubs before so who knows.
@Mapokser My argument that lions can't rationalise makes no sense? What?? Animals don't rationalise. That requires sentience.
It's instinct. Male lions run when they can't hold the territory because their instinct tells them that it's better to run and live, and have the chance to sire more offspring. If they stay and die, their offspring will die as well, and they won't pass on their genes. Not because they 'decide it isn't worth it'. For lionesses, it seems the instinct to defend the cubs/subs is much more powerful, often overriding the instinct to survive. There is no 'sacrifice'. But even then sometimes lionesses give in and submit to the new males, and their cubs get killed. You are in fact anthropomorphising. Because if some lionesses sacrifice themselves and others don't, then that means that some lionesses are morally superior to others. And that, is nonsense.  (02-20-2024, 06:29 PM)NLAL11 Wrote: @Mapokser My argument that lions can't rationalise makes no sense? What?? Animals don't rationalise. That requires sentience. Do you think these animals aren't sentient? 
Conscience, if it exists at all, or rational thought is merely the product of instincts clashing with eachother requiring a decision between the two.
It, just like emotions is not something exclusive to humans and the idea that it is directly violates important scientific concepts such as evolution. So it can be safe to say that lions can weigh options and make decisions. Otherwise we wouldnt be seeing the complex behavoirs we see in the wild. A lion sacrificing him or herself is not less a sacrifice than when a human does it. As both are essentially driven by the same instincts.  (02-20-2024, 10:11 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Conscience, if it exists at all, or rational thought is merely the product of instincts clashing with eachother requiring a decision between the two. Exactly! Otherwise, the behavior of all lions/lionesses will be the same and predictable under a certain situation, just like an organic robot.
@T_Ferguson Not to the level that humans are, no. A lion cannot weigh the probablity of things, like "If I stand and fight against these lions my cubs will have a better chance of escaping."
@Duco Ndona "Conscience, if it exists at all, or rational thought is merely the product of instincts clashing with eachother requiring a decision between the two." Really? So what 'insinct' caused J.R.R. Tolkien to write the Lord of the Rings? What 'instinct' allowed the Wright brothers to invent the airplane? What 'instinct' motivated NASA to send people to the moon? When a monk decides to live in silence and only eat one bowl of rice a day, what 'instinct' is making that decision for them? "It, just like emotions is not something exclusive to humans and the idea that it is directly violates important scientific concepts such as evolution. So it can be safe to say that lions can weigh options and make decisions. Otherwise we wouldnt be seeing the complex behavoirs we see in the wild." Conscious thought is exclusive to humans. Lions, nor any other animal species, have the ability to think about why they do things. This is conscience, or sentience. Evolution is massively complicated for a number of reasons. But animals having conscience isn't one of them. Lions cannot weight options and make decisions based on them, not like a human at least. One instinct might override the other, like hunger or the opportunity to reproduce might override fear of death. When a lion that hasn't eaten for a week fights harder to bring down a buffalo than a lion that ate 12 hours ago, it's because the instinct to eat soon is more powerful than the fear of serious injury. The lion isn't thinking "Oh I haven't eaten in a week, better put a bit more effort into this hunt." And emotion is not the same thing as conscience. Of course animals can feel fear, and anger, happiness. But most 'decisions' are actually made by instinct. Even in humans, the limbic system, aka the lizard brain, does over 70% of our decision making. And in this case, fleeing from other lions, she would have been in fight or flight mode. Which is all about instincts. Only through special training, for example military training, can most humans learn to overcome the very powerful fight or flight (or freeze) response in situations of extreme danger. Most humans, in a case like that, will not be able to make rational decisions. Their decision making will be determined by instinct. So to say that a lioness, in a life or death situation, suppresses their limbic system and making a conscience decision to 'sacrifice herself' for her cubs, is ludicrous. And it is not the same as a human. When a human decides to sacrifice themselves, they are making a conscious decision to go against all their instincts, because they are able to rationalise that even though they will die, it will give other people the chance to live. Because that is what conscious thought is. The ability to go against your instinct. |
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