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Nkuhuma Pride

United States T_Ferguson Offline
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(02-20-2024, 11:42 PM)NLAL11 Wrote: @T_Ferguson Not to the level that humans are, no. A lion cannot weigh the probablity of things, like "If I stand and fight against these lions my cubs will have a better chance of escaping."

@Duco Ndona
"Conscience, if it exists at all, or rational thought is merely the product of instincts clashing with eachother requiring a decision between the two."

Really? So what 'insinct' caused J.R.R. Tolkien to write the Lord of the Rings? What 'instinct' allowed the Wright brothers to invent the airplane? What 'instinct' motivated NASA to send people to the moon? When a monk decides to live in silence and only eat one bowl of rice a day, what 'instinct' is making that decision for them?

"It, just like emotions is not something exclusive to humans and the idea that it is directly violates important scientific concepts such as evolution.
So it can be safe to say that lions can weigh options and make decisions. Otherwise we wouldnt be seeing the complex behavoirs we see in the wild."

Conscious thought is exclusive to humans. Lions, nor any other animal species, have the ability to think about why they do things. This is conscience, or sentience. Evolution is massively complicated for a number of reasons. But animals having conscience isn't one of them. Lions cannot weight options and make decisions based on them, not like a human at least. One instinct might override the other, like hunger or the opportunity to reproduce might override fear of death. When a lion that hasn't eaten for a week fights harder to bring down a buffalo than a lion that ate 12 hours ago, it's because the instinct to eat soon is more powerful than the fear of serious injury. The lion isn't thinking "Oh I haven't eaten in a week, better put a bit more effort into this hunt."

And emotion is not the same thing as conscience. Of course animals can feel fear, and anger, happiness. But most 'decisions' are actually made by instinct. Even in humans, the limbic system, aka the lizard brain, does over 70% of our decision making. And in this case, fleeing from other lions, she would have been in fight or flight mode. Which is all about instincts. Only through special training, for example military training, can most humans learn to overcome the very powerful fight or flight (or freeze) response in situations of extreme danger. Most humans, in a case like that, will not be able to make rational decisions. Their decision making will be determined by instinct.

So to say that a lioness, in a life or death situation, suppresses their limbic system and making a conscience decision to 'sacrifice herself' for her cubs, is ludicrous. And it is not the same as a human. When a human decides to sacrifice themselves, they are making a conscious decision to go against all their instincts, because they are able to rationalise that even though they will die, it will give other people the chance to live. Because that is what conscious thought is. The ability to go against your instinct.

I'll politely disagree with you.  I think a lion is fully aware of what happens if they stand and fight in front of their cubs.  I don't believe there are degrees of Sentience.  There are degrees of intelligence, but sentience merely is being self aware.  These animals are very self aware.  One day perhaps humans will be self aware enough to realize that basically every living thing is self aware.
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Ttimemarti Offline
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It is simple it’s not a human cult weirdo thing it’s a mother and her children are getting attacked by 5 grown adults her daughter and son would’ve stood no chance in a fight so she sacrificed herself to save her children
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Duco Ndona Online
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What drove the wrights brothers is not much different from a lion experimenting with new hunting techniques to improve his chances. While the only difference between Tolkien imagining a epic war, or a lion pondering a epic takeover is that the first is able to put his ideas on paper. NASA merely is the accumulation of our instinct to explore new areas. Them imagining new ways to cross space is not much different from that of a lion puzzling how to safely cross a river. Ultimately, most of our media is still driven by violence or sex.


You are merely romantizising human behavoir and Unless you wants to argue that someone that is illiterate or not a brilliant inventor isnt sentient. I dont think it holds up.

And offcource lions ponder the why of their actions. They have to justify towards themselves why they just took a massive risk in a battle during a take over. The gains, like mating opportunities and better hunting opportunities are afteral often not present at those battles. It may take months for those rewards can be enjoyed. 
In any case he has to weigh the immidiate instinct of self preservation versus a chance to satisfy the mating instinct. Which is sentience. If there wasnt, the outcome would be always not to fight to take over a pride. 

And since when are love, loyalty and the other virtues that drive self sacrifice not instincts?
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Ttimemarti Offline
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@Duco Ndona who are you referring too?
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Panama Mapokser Online
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@NLAL11

Things are not so black and white, you're portraying lions as creatures that always act purely on instinct and nothing else, lacking personalities, feelings and intelligence, as robots programmed by their instincts and nothing else.

I guess their ability to count is also instinct?

Anyway, how you concluded that RN would be morally superior for sacrificing is impossible for me to understand, first of this doesn't apply not even to humans, nobody is morally superior for sacrificing themselves or not, in fact, even with humans, moral is objectively always subjective, but this is beyond the point.

A lioness who takes the decision to fight in a battle she can't win so her cubs can live, by the very definition, has sacrificed herself, nothing wrong with saying this IMO.
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Mwk85 Offline
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(02-23-2024, 03:13 PM)KM600 Wrote: Seen a video of Ridge Nose Nkuhuma breakaway in Arathusa dated back two days ago and days before he was spotted is Jaci Sabi House. I first thought the Nkuhuma breakaways had come too far South and that’s where the altercation with the Mhangenis taken place but with him going further East into Northern Sabi Sands, I’m starting to rethink it. The Mhangenis may have tracked them down themselves.

Nevertheless, Northern Sabi Sands is not the safest space rn especially with him not being old enough to be seen as a possible partner for the nearby males. 
Would have included both videos/photos but seen it on Nkuhuma Pride Facebook page and don’t have a page myself to attach the clips.


Believe I saw the video you're referring to and isn't that her son that was born 2019? He looks to be more developed mane wise than her son sired by the PC's.
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United Kingdom KM600 Offline
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(02-23-2024, 10:34 PM)Mwk85 Wrote:
(02-23-2024, 03:13 PM)KM600 Wrote: Seen a video of Ridge Nose Nkuhuma breakaway in Arathusa dated back two days ago and days before he was spotted is Jaci Sabi House. I first thought the Nkuhuma breakaways had come too far South and that’s where the altercation with the Mhangenis taken place but with him going further East into Northern Sabi Sands, I’m starting to rethink it. The Mhangenis may have tracked them down themselves.

Nevertheless, Northern Sabi Sands is not the safest space rn especially with him not being old enough to be seen as a possible partner for the nearby males. 
Would have included both videos/photos but seen it on Nkuhuma Pride Facebook page and don’t have a page myself to attach the clips.


Believe I saw the video you're referring to and isn't that her son that was born 2019? He looks to be more developed mane wise than her son sired by the PC's.

Ye u were right about the video taken from Arathusa, didn’t watch long enough to fully ID but I’d never heard of the older son of Ridge Nose being spotted by himself and assumed it was the breakaway boy. I guess he’s way more confident after that lil stint in Kruger.
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NLAL11 Offline
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@T_Ferguson Yes, self-awareness is part of sentience. But you think a lion is self aware? Think about what happens when a cat sees itself in a mirror? Does it realise it's seeing itself? No. Because it lacks self awareness. You think a lion is any different? Not really sure what to make of that last sentence.
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NLAL11 Offline
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@Duco Ndona You think lions think of takeovers as 'epic'? This isn't the Lion King dude. And lions don't have imagination. Seriously. When humans started to develop imagination was when they truly started to move away from the animal kingdom.

" Unless you wants to argue that someone that is illiterate or not a brilliant inventor isnt sentient."
Where did I say that? I was merely giving well-known examples of where humans have deviated from natural instinct.

" And offcource lions ponder the why of their actions."
No, not of course. Nonsense. You think a dog 'ponders' why it chases after rabbits? You think a bird 'ponders' why it builds nests? You think an elephant 'ponders' why it strips the bark from one tree but not another. I'll answer that whole paragraph with two words. Natural selection. The male lions that don't take the risk to take over a pride (mostly) don't pass on their genes. The males that take the risk, do. They are not aware of why they do it. This is literally why males of almost all species fight for mating rights.
 
"In any case he has to weigh the immidiate instinct of self preservation versus a chance to satisfy the mating instinct. Which is sentience."
Animals, nor people, 'weigh' instincts. To weigh two things you need to be aware of them, and animals are not aware of their instincts. Most humans are only aware of certain instincts because a whole series of very intelligent people have done tonnes of research and told us about them. Even then, most people aren't aware of why they eat crappy food (instinct to store up on fat) or gossip about people in their social circle (community-wide reputation policing). And you think a lion is aware of its instincts? Yes, weighing two options is sentience. But lions don't that.
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NLAL11 Offline
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@Mapokser Go read my messages again. I agreed that lions (and other animals) can feel emotions. Where did I say that animals cannot have personalities, feelings or intelligence? But these things are not sentience. They are not self-awareness, cognitive thought, or imagination.

Not sure what gives certain animals like pigeons the ability to count, as I haven't read up on it. Lions can't count though.

To a certain extent, yes, morality is subjective. But not always. One form of moral superiority or inferiority would exist on an axis of selfishness to selflessness. A more selfless person is more likely to sacrifice themselves for others. A more selfish person is more likely to spare themselves at the expense of the other people. Of course certain animals do demonstrate altruism, of a kind. Humpback whales will defend other marine animals from orcas, with no understandable benefit to themselves. Though it is difficult to say if true altruism exists. A lion's willingness to defend its pride or coalition members or cubs, which is an instinct that most social animals have, is actually a form of 'selfishness', as it betters their own survival, or the survival of their genes. A mother lioness fiercely defends her own cubs, because a lioness that does not, does not pass on her genes. So the adaptive behaviour is passed down as instinct.
 
The thing is, you're all talking about her 'sacrificing' herself when the truth is none of us actually know what happened. It is perfectly possible, in fact most likely, that RN's death gave the subs a chance to escape. But that does not mean she sacrificed herself. As lions are not capable of doing this. More likely she got surrounded and was unable to escape, seeing as she was so outnumbered. Every animal, including a mother lioness, will do everything it can to survive. Sacrificing themselves completely goes against literally the strongest, most powerful instinct any animal, including humans, has.
 
" nothing wrong with saying this IMO"
Well, I disagree. Obviously.
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Duco Ndona Online
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(02-24-2024, 03:24 AM)NLAL11 Wrote: @Duco Ndona You think lions think of takeovers as 'epic'? This isn't the Lion King dude. And lions don't have imagination. Seriously. When humans started to develop imagination was when they truly started to move away from the animal kingdom.

" Unless you wants to argue that someone that is illiterate or not a brilliant inventor isnt sentient."
Where did I say that? I was merely giving well-known examples of where humans have deviated from natural instinct.

" And offcource lions ponder the why of their actions."
No, not of course. Nonsense. You think a dog 'ponders' why it chases after rabbits? You think a bird 'ponders' why it builds nests? You think an elephant 'ponders' why it strips the bark from one tree but not another. I'll answer that whole paragraph with two words. Natural selection. The male lions that don't take the risk to take over a pride (mostly) don't pass on their genes. The males that take the risk, do. They are not aware of why they do it. This is literally why males of almost all species fight for mating rights.
 
"In any case he has to weigh the immidiate instinct of self preservation versus a chance to satisfy the mating instinct. Which is sentience."
Animals, nor people, 'weigh' instincts. To weigh two things you need to be aware of them, and animals are not aware of their instincts. Most humans are only aware of certain instincts because a whole series of very intelligent people have done tonnes of research and told us about them. Even then, most people aren't aware of why they eat crappy food (instinct to store up on fat) or gossip about people in their social circle (community-wide reputation policing). And you think a lion is aware of its instincts? Yes, weighing two options is sentience. But lions don't that.

I really doubt you have spend even two seconds studying animals if you believe they really behave like that. We have seen plenty of times that take overs arent as simple as one group just barging in on some other lions territory and being forced to fight by their own instincts even if it means certain death as if the instinct of self preservation just suddenly stops existing. And again, lionesses are rarely present during a take over and if they are, them being in the mood for mating is even rarer. So by your logic, how can a male be driven by the instinct to reproduce during such fights.



And no, you havent given any examples of humans deviating from their instinct. All you are doing is shift the goalpost by claiming animals lack abilities that they have already well demonstrated to have. 


Quote:Go read my messages again. I agreed that lions (and other animals) can feel emotions. Where did I say that animals cannot have personalities, feelings or intelligence? But these things are not sentience. They are not self-awareness, cognitive thought, or imagination.

Not sure what gives certain animals like pigeons the ability to count, as I haven't read up on it. Lions can't count though.

To a certain extent, yes, morality is subjective. But not always. One form of moral superiority or inferiority would exist on an axis of selfishness to selflessness. A more selfless person is more likely to sacrifice themselves for others. A more selfish person is more likely to spare themselves at the expense of the other people. Of course certain animals do demonstrate altruism, of a kind. Humpback whales will defend other marine animals from orcas, with no understandable benefit to themselves. Though it is difficult to say if true altruism exists. A lion's willingness to defend its pride or coalition members or cubs, which is an instinct that most social animals have, is actually a form of 'selfishness', as it betters their own survival, or the survival of their genes. A mother lioness fiercely defends her own cubs, because a lioness that does not, does not pass on her genes. So the adaptive behaviour is passed down as instinct.
 
The thing is, you're all talking about her 'sacrificing' herself when the truth is none of us actually know what happened. It is perfectly possible, in fact most likely, that RN's death gave the subs a chance to escape. But that does not mean she sacrificed herself. As lions are not capable of doing this. More likely she got surrounded and was unable to escape, seeing as she was so outnumbered. Every animal, including a mother lioness, will do everything it can to survive. Sacrificing themselves completely goes against literally the strongest, most powerful instinct any animal, including humans, has.
 
" nothing wrong with saying this IMO"
Well, I disagree. Obviously


You are kinda contradicting yourself here. First you point out that there are indeed instincts that leads to alruism and self sacrifice. But then you claim it does not happen and every event has somehow be misinterpreted even though there have been plenty of cases where animals have thrown themselves into danger to protect their offspring and werent just caught fleeing. 


And if self preservation was indeed the strongest most powerfull instinct. Then why are so many animals risking their lives for territory and mating opportunities. What was for example the late othawa male thinking when he invaded Birmingham Boy territory for mating. Even though he was perfectly safe staying with the Mangheni.
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Panama Mapokser Online
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@NLAL11 So cats aren't self-aware because they don't recognize themselves in the mirror? I guess dolphins, elephants, apes and other animals are, they can recognize themselves.

Lions can't count? Sorry, but they can, this is scientific proved, and we see this every day in the dynamics.

Scientists are able to oust lions by playing roars, the lions can count, if they hear more roars they flee, if the lions have more numbers they reply.

Same with lionesses and the number or cubs.

Morality is always, without exception, subjective.

Who told you that a selfless person is morally superior to a selfish one? God? Because unless he descends here right now, proving his existence and tells us that, there's no method to define what is morally wrong and right, it's simply impossible, every person can have their own morals ans nobody can prove those are objectively right or wrong.

Objective morals can only be real if there's a superior all-powerful being who decided what morals are right, and since the existance of such a being isn't proved, morals are subjective.

So not only lions can't be immoral but neither can humans.
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Panama Mapokser Online
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( This post was last modified: 02-24-2024, 10:24 AM by Mapokser )

Breakaway subs seen in Dulini, their condition is perfect, by Ranger EBZ:


*This image is copyright of its original author


As expected, at 2yo and with their incredible size, they seem to be fully independent already.
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Ttimemarti Offline
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The Mjejane male heard the roars of mo and is brothers and he fled and returned with his brothers they can count matimbas gave up their territory bc they where outnumbered 2 to 5
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United Kingdom KM600 Offline
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Nkuhuma boys back with the pride, Mohawk wasn’t present in this sighting but is in the area. Always thought the lion who benefits most from the boys returning would be the 2021 male, still too young to be a permanent coalition member but would be nice to see him keep strong bonds with his older brothers.

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