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Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers

Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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(03-29-2022, 09:33 PM)Jerricson Wrote: can u share the mail confirming the 240kg figure?

Yes, the communication was not confirmed to me directly, but to another poster, I forgot who:


*This image is copyright of its original author


The original article that they quote is the one that state the weight of 240 kg.
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India Jerricson Offline
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(03-31-2022, 05:51 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(03-29-2022, 09:33 PM)Jerricson Wrote: can u share the mail confirming the 240kg figure?

Yes, the communication was not confirmed to me directly, but to another poster, I forgot who:


*This image is copyright of its original author


The original article that they quote is the one that state the weight of 240 kg.

Thanks guate. Much appreciated :)
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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(07-25-2021, 01:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote: I received Dr. Ullas Karanth's book, "Hulirayana Akashavani" (translation - Tiger Radio-collaring)


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Unfortunately, the book is in Kannada language which is a regional language spoken in Southern India (where Dr. Karanth is from) so I am having a difficult time trying to translate. 
I'll keep posting as I find new information worth sharing. 

 #1. Capture of T-04 aka Mara

pp. 101 to 105

The clock cared - 9.07 A.M. That is, within five minutes of my departure, the tiger caught prey. The tiger is likely not to go that far. Thus the traders did not need to chase the tiger. Chinnappa asked the team to be quiet. Although I only saw the tiger a few times, my aim was correct

I was sure it had reached the base. The trailmen took out the syringe which had been ripped from the tiger's thigh. The syringe was empty. This proved that the drug was inside the tiger's body. Now we have to find the tiger. There is a life - threatening danger when researchers search for a darted tiger. None of my team members here have such anxiety. We need to find the tiger now. Under the direction of Chinnappan, team members sought out the traces of the tiger. A trail of thick bedding and hardwood in the dryer can detect! But neither the Chinnappan's trailblazer, there is a leaf litter, a finger tiger in the dust - so that all the signs that are incomprehensible to the rest are clearly visible to them. Anesthesia can cause the tiger's hind legs to lose control of the body. Tiger gets to the ground without being able to move on the front legs. We checked whether the mud had crossed the road towards the tiger toll, or if it had crossed back into the forest. Suddenly, there was a shout. Raju is shocked that something tragic has happened before he can convince us that he is Raju voice came from the forest - "Tiger tangle sir!" Everybody rushed to the sound of the tiger, sitting on a tree and observing the movements of the tiger. This is not the same as Raju Hederupa, who never went back. The first time I anesthetized a tiger in Nagarahole.

Sunquist was with us then. Our team members were only twenty meters away when they and I and Chinnappa were testing the tiger. Despite repeated calls, even though the summoner repeatedly called that there is no danger, they did not come close ! Despite being anesthetized, the tiger did not appear to be fully immobilized. When it landed, its orange eyes were full and staring. The illusion must be born now and then to leave. Anesthetic is a ' dissociative anesthetic ' so that the tiger is inactive but does not look dull and the eye is wide open. The tiger rolls over its tongue. None of my trafficking shepherds would come near the darted tiger. I, Sunquist, Chinnappa and Subbayya are the only ones who have been involved in tiger care. Subbayya is a disciplined planter who, like the cowboy of British times, is a believer in Chinnappan. But none of our twelve remaining members of the faith came near the tiger! At the base there was only the co operation of a strong - willed, tiger mustache guard. Once the tiger is anesthetized and sleeps, there will be a hundred jobs. The body of the tiger must be kept water cooled. The chest, spray, body measure, weight this tiger wound treatment ... " Come and do nothing"... Came ten thousand feet before us, and one step of them came nearer to death. Twelve people flew in all directions ! The young tree bends down and touches the ground like a rainbow , and the sight of the five young men gazing blankly at the sight of where they came from is a spectacular sight ! This story of Zindu reminded him that all the traders were laughing and joking about their own charm. The excitement of the tiger now had lightened the burden of everyone's body. But the work is not over here. We needed work to be done. Since the tiger is our fourth capture, everybody is well convinced of their specific task. Everybody got into skittering. It was a huge male tiger, which Chinnappan named ' Mara'. Mara is the Kannada name for the love goddess Sundararanga Manmatha. But I remember the explanation given by Chinnappan for the name 'Mara'. " When I was a young boy, there was a sturdy two - year - old in our village, Mara was his name. When I saw this tiger, I wrote down the size of his tiger body on the information form, with the head and body length being 189 cm, Tail length 100 cm, Total 289 cm . Similarly for the head , chest circumference , etc.

How can a I lift the weight of a tiger ? We have to weigh Mara. We must use all our manpower for this. All our team members are farmers. We layed the tiger on a net made of thin nylon fishbone. The net was wrapped around the tiger, leaving only the tail tapping out. The hangar was fastened with a plastic rope, and the end of the rope was fastened to a large stinging bracket. We fastened the two ends of the sash to a thick wooden rope and hung the rope into the rings. All at once, the people raised their hands and raised the tiger one inch from the ground! Mara is a massive tiger who weighs 250 kilograms. When the tiger didn't wake up throughout the day, it is not advisable to let the sun go down and cool it again. Nanjappa gave Mara another anesthetic. Mara's mouth opened and I examined his teeth. Each tiger's teeth tell a history of its life. Tigers less than eleven months have milk teeth. These teeth are not as sturdy as bay teeth. As they grow older, their hard teeth come. Milk teeth fall out. By the age of 18 months, tigers have sturdy teeth. During the first few years of tiger puberty, its teeth are very sharp. Pinkish tint to fine white teeth. The tiger who are very old, have lost, eroded and severely shredded teeth. Fighting with others also cause a tooth fracture. Gradually the yellow moss accumulates on the tooth and turns brown. If we capture a young tiger, its neck will not reach full maturity. 

Sunquist had shown us the radio collar and cut it into two pieces and the rivets between the other two strips. As a young tiger grows, so does its neck circumference. Gradually the rhythm of the ringed eel will gradually rust and the leather bar will decay.

However, Mara wasn't fully grown, his teeth were white, sharply powered. Not a tooth was broken. By the time he reached the age of three to four, I had reasoned that he would need a large collar to wear. Rivette was adjusted to fit around Mara's neck. While the radio collar should be tied to the tiger's neck, the animal should not in any way be unpleasant, and should not interfere with other natural activities such as eating and swallowing. I saw the collar tucked between a slit. The radio antenna, which is the collar of the tiger, and the signals are embedded in the back of the collar. The radio transmitter is placed inside a pistol metal container with waterproof resin on the outside. We don't want to lose the collar due to the fact that the tigers like water! The mark 'T - 04' has been marked with special black ink, on Mara . It is the mark of Mara being the fourth of the tigers we captured in Nagarahole.


*This image is copyright of its original author
   
(Mara was repeatedly captured in camera traps)

After reading this, it doesn't seem like Mara had eaten anything before being weighed. As Dr. Karanth wrote, the tiger took the bait less than 5 minutes after they left, and as soon as they were informed, they returned to dart the tiger who went on a marathon while half sedated.

Excelent information, thank you for sharing it.

Now, there is an important point here. All of us know that the information on the Nagarahole tigers came from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002), and they quote the thesis of Dr Karanth from 1993 as the main reference: PREDATOR-PREY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE LARGE MAMMALS OF NAGARAHOLE NATIONAL PARK (INDIA).

However, when I found the full thesis available in the web, there is no information about the captured tigers, no weight or measurements, so I think that the figures published came from a personal communication between Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth.

However, now that we have the transcription of what the original book says, it is clear that the tiger T-04 was not gorged, nor even had the time to eat something of the bait, here is a picture of him captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author


We can see that it doesn't look fat or gorged at all. So we can conclude that the adjustment of 35 kg is too much and that taking in count that he killed the bait and captured in less than a few hours, certainly just a few kg should be adjusted in the best case. Schaller (1975) estimated that an adult lion may take 20 min per kg when eat, but also he says that a tiger rarely eat more than one hour before to stop and rest (Schaller, 1967), so we can estimate that tiger T-4, in the worst of the cases, could have an stomach content of about 6 kg, if the entire operation for capture took more than 2 hours, which I found to ulikely as they were already for the capture when they were informed of the bait kill. But if the entire operation took only one hour before the capture, which is more likely, that stomach content could be no more than 3-4 kg, and this assuming that the tiger started to eat inmmediatelly after it killed the bait, which again, is not what the tigers do (they drag the prey, they lick it and start remouving the hair and after that they start eating, maybe after 15-20 min of this process).

In this case, I don't think that the figure of 215 kg is the correct one for this tiger, and while we do know that male T-01 was gorged (based in the pictures), this is not the case of male T-04 so I will use the figure of 250 kg for this tiger, with minimum, almoust empty, stomach content.

We will need to see the case of male T-03, the bigger one, wich based in Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) it was of 227 kg but that originally weighed 257 kg.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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(01-15-2021, 12:43 AM)Khan85 Wrote: Rather small sized (height/length wise) male tiger translocated from Corbett to Rajaji 

Age - 6 years

Headbody length = 67 inches / 170.18 cms
Total length = 8 ft 9 inches / 266.7 cms
Shoulder height (extended paw) = 38 inches / 96.52 cms ;; (subtracting the paw length) = 81.28 cms
Weight = 215 kgs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3xn_sIJjV8&t=3s

I was checking the video again and I noted that the body measurement is incorrectly done. The animal was not fully streched, specially in the neck and head. They just took the length from the rump to the tip of the piece of cloth that covered its eyes, not to the tip of the nose. In this case that length of 170 cm is unreliable and that tiger could measure 180 cm in head-body in straight line.

Also the age seems incorrect too. The size itself and the fact that the canines are too white shows that this is by no means a fully grow male of 6 years old. Maybe 3-4, but 6 is out of question.

I will use the weight of 215 kg, but certainly the measurements are not correctly done and should be discarted. I fancy how many errors like these are made in the field.
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SpinoRex Offline
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(04-02-2022, 12:41 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-25-2021, 01:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote: I received Dr. Ullas Karanth's book, "Hulirayana Akashavani" (translation - Tiger Radio-collaring)


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Unfortunately, the book is in Kannada language which is a regional language spoken in Southern India (where Dr. Karanth is from) so I am having a difficult time trying to translate. 
I'll keep posting as I find new information worth sharing. 

 #1. Capture of T-04 aka Mara

pp. 101 to 105

The clock cared - 9.07 A.M. That is, within five minutes of my departure, the tiger caught prey. The tiger is likely not to go that far. Thus the traders did not need to chase the tiger. Chinnappa asked the team to be quiet. Although I only saw the tiger a few times, my aim was correct

I was sure it had reached the base. The trailmen took out the syringe which had been ripped from the tiger's thigh. The syringe was empty. This proved that the drug was inside the tiger's body. Now we have to find the tiger. There is a life - threatening danger when researchers search for a darted tiger. None of my team members here have such anxiety. We need to find the tiger now. Under the direction of Chinnappan, team members sought out the traces of the tiger. A trail of thick bedding and hardwood in the dryer can detect! But neither the Chinnappan's trailblazer, there is a leaf litter, a finger tiger in the dust - so that all the signs that are incomprehensible to the rest are clearly visible to them. Anesthesia can cause the tiger's hind legs to lose control of the body. Tiger gets to the ground without being able to move on the front legs. We checked whether the mud had crossed the road towards the tiger toll, or if it had crossed back into the forest. Suddenly, there was a shout. Raju is shocked that something tragic has happened before he can convince us that he is Raju voice came from the forest - "Tiger tangle sir!" Everybody rushed to the sound of the tiger, sitting on a tree and observing the movements of the tiger. This is not the same as Raju Hederupa, who never went back. The first time I anesthetized a tiger in Nagarahole.

Sunquist was with us then. Our team members were only twenty meters away when they and I and Chinnappa were testing the tiger. Despite repeated calls, even though the summoner repeatedly called that there is no danger, they did not come close ! Despite being anesthetized, the tiger did not appear to be fully immobilized. When it landed, its orange eyes were full and staring. The illusion must be born now and then to leave. Anesthetic is a ' dissociative anesthetic ' so that the tiger is inactive but does not look dull and the eye is wide open. The tiger rolls over its tongue. None of my trafficking shepherds would come near the darted tiger. I, Sunquist, Chinnappa and Subbayya are the only ones who have been involved in tiger care. Subbayya is a disciplined planter who, like the cowboy of British times, is a believer in Chinnappan. But none of our twelve remaining members of the faith came near the tiger! At the base there was only the co operation of a strong - willed, tiger mustache guard. Once the tiger is anesthetized and sleeps, there will be a hundred jobs. The body of the tiger must be kept water cooled. The chest, spray, body measure, weight this tiger wound treatment ... " Come and do nothing"... Came ten thousand feet before us, and one step of them came nearer to death. Twelve people flew in all directions ! The young tree bends down and touches the ground like a rainbow , and the sight of the five young men gazing blankly at the sight of where they came from is a spectacular sight ! This story of Zindu reminded him that all the traders were laughing and joking about their own charm. The excitement of the tiger now had lightened the burden of everyone's body. But the work is not over here. We needed work to be done. Since the tiger is our fourth capture, everybody is well convinced of their specific task. Everybody got into skittering. It was a huge male tiger, which Chinnappan named ' Mara'. Mara is the Kannada name for the love goddess Sundararanga Manmatha. But I remember the explanation given by Chinnappan for the name 'Mara'. " When I was a young boy, there was a sturdy two - year - old in our village, Mara was his name. When I saw this tiger, I wrote down the size of his tiger body on the information form, with the head and body length being 189 cm, Tail length 100 cm, Total 289 cm . Similarly for the head , chest circumference , etc.

How can a I lift the weight of a tiger ? We have to weigh Mara. We must use all our manpower for this. All our team members are farmers. We layed the tiger on a net made of thin nylon fishbone. The net was wrapped around the tiger, leaving only the tail tapping out. The hangar was fastened with a plastic rope, and the end of the rope was fastened to a large stinging bracket. We fastened the two ends of the sash to a thick wooden rope and hung the rope into the rings. All at once, the people raised their hands and raised the tiger one inch from the ground! Mara is a massive tiger who weighs 250 kilograms. When the tiger didn't wake up throughout the day, it is not advisable to let the sun go down and cool it again. Nanjappa gave Mara another anesthetic. Mara's mouth opened and I examined his teeth. Each tiger's teeth tell a history of its life. Tigers less than eleven months have milk teeth. These teeth are not as sturdy as bay teeth. As they grow older, their hard teeth come. Milk teeth fall out. By the age of 18 months, tigers have sturdy teeth. During the first few years of tiger puberty, its teeth are very sharp. Pinkish tint to fine white teeth. The tiger who are very old, have lost, eroded and severely shredded teeth. Fighting with others also cause a tooth fracture. Gradually the yellow moss accumulates on the tooth and turns brown. If we capture a young tiger, its neck will not reach full maturity. 

Sunquist had shown us the radio collar and cut it into two pieces and the rivets between the other two strips. As a young tiger grows, so does its neck circumference. Gradually the rhythm of the ringed eel will gradually rust and the leather bar will decay.

However, Mara wasn't fully grown, his teeth were white, sharply powered. Not a tooth was broken. By the time he reached the age of three to four, I had reasoned that he would need a large collar to wear. Rivette was adjusted to fit around Mara's neck. While the radio collar should be tied to the tiger's neck, the animal should not in any way be unpleasant, and should not interfere with other natural activities such as eating and swallowing. I saw the collar tucked between a slit. The radio antenna, which is the collar of the tiger, and the signals are embedded in the back of the collar. The radio transmitter is placed inside a pistol metal container with waterproof resin on the outside. We don't want to lose the collar due to the fact that the tigers like water! The mark 'T - 04' has been marked with special black ink, on Mara . It is the mark of Mara being the fourth of the tigers we captured in Nagarahole.


*This image is copyright of its original author
   
(Mara was repeatedly captured in camera traps)

After reading this, it doesn't seem like Mara had eaten anything before being weighed. As Dr. Karanth wrote, the tiger took the bait less than 5 minutes after they left, and as soon as they were informed, they returned to dart the tiger who went on a marathon while half sedated.

Excelent information, thank you for sharing it.

Now, there is an important point here. All of us know that the information on the Nagarahole tigers came from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002), and they quote the thesis of Dr Karanth from 1993 as the main reference: PREDATOR-PREY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE LARGE MAMMALS OF NAGARAHOLE NATIONAL PARK (INDIA).

However, when I found the full thesis available in the web, there is no information about the captured tigers, no weight or measurements, so I think that the figures published came from a personal communication between Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth.

However, now that we have the transcription of what the original book says, it is clear that the tiger T-04 was not gorged, nor even had the time to eat something of the bait, here is a picture of him captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author


We can see that it doesn't look fat or gorged at all. So we can conclude that the adjustment of 35 kg is too much and that taking in count that he killed the bait and captured in less than a few hours, certainly just a few kg should be adjusted in the best case. Schaller (1975) estimated that an adult lion may take 20 min per kg when eat, but also he says that a tiger rarely eat more than one hour before to stop and rest (Schaller, 1967), so we can estimate that tiger T-4, in the worst of the cases, could have an stomach content of about 6 kg, if the entire operation for capture took more than 2 hours, which I found to ulikely as they were already for the capture when they were informed of the bait kill. But if the entire operation took only one hour before the capture, which is more likely, that stomach content could be no more than 3-4 kg, and this assuming that the tiger started to eat inmmediatelly after it killed the bait, which again, is not what the tigers do (they drag the prey, they lick it and start remouving the hair and after that they start eating, maybe after 15-20 min of this process).

In this case, I don't think that the figure of 215 kg is the correct one for this tiger, and while we do know that male T-01 was gorged (based in the pictures), this is not the case of male T-04 so I will use the figure of 250 kg for this tiger, with minimum, almoust empty, stomach content.

We will need to see the case of male T-03, the bigger one, wich based in Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) it was of 227 kg but that originally weighed 257 kg.

(I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

@Khan85 Also regarding your 280 kg Tiger. I saw the full conversation where he said "he had a meal recently". So making up misleading interpretations wont make you look better. These weight ranges as he said where those from YV Jhala! Jhala wasn't sure about his biggest tiger and gave rounded numbers (280-290, 285, 280). So he has to be contacted although he doesnt seem to answer anymore and therefore I suggest to wait for a long time before asking him again.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-04-2022, 11:04 PM by GuateGojira )

(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: (I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

Of course that male tiger T-04 had stomach content, it is obvious (but we need to remember the case of the biggest lion from Smuts, so...), but I was just placing a bait and you bite it. From all the posters here you are the only one that answered to that post and was the only form that you returned to post again here.

Now, let's talk directly SpinoRex, or I should say "Yusuf", the lion fanatic already banned here, that wants to create a "reputation" just because you have a few new lion weights apparently confirmed (and all of them "empty belly", which is suspicious) and that is only copy-pasting the posts of Waveriders like if he was a real authority. Oh yes, I knew who you are since the beggining when you send me those emails and I was also whatching your posts in Carnivora, but the last post, especifically the one against me and this forum, was too much. I don't like the hipocrate people like you, so I am going to prepare an especific post answering against your attacks and the false information that you are spreading, in a direct form and not like you, showing one face here and other face in Carnivore and also Discord. 


By the way, there is no confusion about the male T-01, all posters know which tiger is him, in fact Dr Karanth told me that the male that is quoted as 230 kg in this book and 240 kg in other book, actually weighed 238 kg including the resent meal.

@peter, @sanjay and @tigerluver,  here is the link where he acused our forum of bias. Check the post 11525 https://carnivora.net/lion-v-tiger-t19-s11520.html
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

This is another example of you trying to twist the information. Dr Karanth is just using figures from the litterature and depending of his source, he change the low value from 15 to 20 kg, although he keep the figure of 35 kg as the maximum, you can check it in the chapter about tigers from the book of 2013 "Mammals of South Asia".

It is almoust imposible for a tiger to consume 35 kg in less than 12 hours (which is the maximum time that a tiger can stay with a bait before its capture), that is a figure for 24 hours and is the maximum ever recorded. Again, check that Dr Karanth did not study the consumption of tigers or measured intake, he used the figures from Dr Sunquist from Chitwan NP and those from Dr Schaller at Kanha NP, and we already know those figures (I can put them again here). In fact, Dr Sunquist (2014) summarize that information very well using only the range values:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Now you can see the figures from 24 hours and that figure of 34 is an exceptional one too. This figure do not apply to bait comsuptions, as tigers were disturbed and did not ate they full when they were captured. Also, do not forget about what Dr Chundawat found, theonly one that actually weighed the stomach content of a large tiger, remember that they believed that was between 25-30 kg but at the end it was 19 kg.

So, the stomach content of the Nagarahole tigers was probably lower than the figure of 30 kg used.
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United States Khan85 Offline
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(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 12:41 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-25-2021, 01:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote: I received Dr. Ullas Karanth's book, "Hulirayana Akashavani" (translation - Tiger Radio-collaring)


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Unfortunately, the book is in Kannada language which is a regional language spoken in Southern India (where Dr. Karanth is from) so I am having a difficult time trying to translate. 
I'll keep posting as I find new information worth sharing. 

 #1. Capture of T-04 aka Mara

pp. 101 to 105

The clock cared - 9.07 A.M. That is, within five minutes of my departure, the tiger caught prey. The tiger is likely not to go that far. Thus the traders did not need to chase the tiger. Chinnappa asked the team to be quiet. Although I only saw the tiger a few times, my aim was correct

I was sure it had reached the base. The trailmen took out the syringe which had been ripped from the tiger's thigh. The syringe was empty. This proved that the drug was inside the tiger's body. Now we have to find the tiger. There is a life - threatening danger when researchers search for a darted tiger. None of my team members here have such anxiety. We need to find the tiger now. Under the direction of Chinnappan, team members sought out the traces of the tiger. A trail of thick bedding and hardwood in the dryer can detect! But neither the Chinnappan's trailblazer, there is a leaf litter, a finger tiger in the dust - so that all the signs that are incomprehensible to the rest are clearly visible to them. Anesthesia can cause the tiger's hind legs to lose control of the body. Tiger gets to the ground without being able to move on the front legs. We checked whether the mud had crossed the road towards the tiger toll, or if it had crossed back into the forest. Suddenly, there was a shout. Raju is shocked that something tragic has happened before he can convince us that he is Raju voice came from the forest - "Tiger tangle sir!" Everybody rushed to the sound of the tiger, sitting on a tree and observing the movements of the tiger. This is not the same as Raju Hederupa, who never went back. The first time I anesthetized a tiger in Nagarahole.

Sunquist was with us then. Our team members were only twenty meters away when they and I and Chinnappa were testing the tiger. Despite repeated calls, even though the summoner repeatedly called that there is no danger, they did not come close ! Despite being anesthetized, the tiger did not appear to be fully immobilized. When it landed, its orange eyes were full and staring. The illusion must be born now and then to leave. Anesthetic is a ' dissociative anesthetic ' so that the tiger is inactive but does not look dull and the eye is wide open. The tiger rolls over its tongue. None of my trafficking shepherds would come near the darted tiger. I, Sunquist, Chinnappa and Subbayya are the only ones who have been involved in tiger care. Subbayya is a disciplined planter who, like the cowboy of British times, is a believer in Chinnappan. But none of our twelve remaining members of the faith came near the tiger! At the base there was only the co operation of a strong - willed, tiger mustache guard. Once the tiger is anesthetized and sleeps, there will be a hundred jobs. The body of the tiger must be kept water cooled. The chest, spray, body measure, weight this tiger wound treatment ... " Come and do nothing"... Came ten thousand feet before us, and one step of them came nearer to death. Twelve people flew in all directions ! The young tree bends down and touches the ground like a rainbow , and the sight of the five young men gazing blankly at the sight of where they came from is a spectacular sight ! This story of Zindu reminded him that all the traders were laughing and joking about their own charm. The excitement of the tiger now had lightened the burden of everyone's body. But the work is not over here. We needed work to be done. Since the tiger is our fourth capture, everybody is well convinced of their specific task. Everybody got into skittering. It was a huge male tiger, which Chinnappan named ' Mara'. Mara is the Kannada name for the love goddess Sundararanga Manmatha. But I remember the explanation given by Chinnappan for the name 'Mara'. " When I was a young boy, there was a sturdy two - year - old in our village, Mara was his name. When I saw this tiger, I wrote down the size of his tiger body on the information form, with the head and body length being 189 cm, Tail length 100 cm, Total 289 cm . Similarly for the head , chest circumference , etc.

How can a I lift the weight of a tiger ? We have to weigh Mara. We must use all our manpower for this. All our team members are farmers. We layed the tiger on a net made of thin nylon fishbone. The net was wrapped around the tiger, leaving only the tail tapping out. The hangar was fastened with a plastic rope, and the end of the rope was fastened to a large stinging bracket. We fastened the two ends of the sash to a thick wooden rope and hung the rope into the rings. All at once, the people raised their hands and raised the tiger one inch from the ground! Mara is a massive tiger who weighs 250 kilograms. When the tiger didn't wake up throughout the day, it is not advisable to let the sun go down and cool it again. Nanjappa gave Mara another anesthetic. Mara's mouth opened and I examined his teeth. Each tiger's teeth tell a history of its life. Tigers less than eleven months have milk teeth. These teeth are not as sturdy as bay teeth. As they grow older, their hard teeth come. Milk teeth fall out. By the age of 18 months, tigers have sturdy teeth. During the first few years of tiger puberty, its teeth are very sharp. Pinkish tint to fine white teeth. The tiger who are very old, have lost, eroded and severely shredded teeth. Fighting with others also cause a tooth fracture. Gradually the yellow moss accumulates on the tooth and turns brown. If we capture a young tiger, its neck will not reach full maturity. 

Sunquist had shown us the radio collar and cut it into two pieces and the rivets between the other two strips. As a young tiger grows, so does its neck circumference. Gradually the rhythm of the ringed eel will gradually rust and the leather bar will decay.

However, Mara wasn't fully grown, his teeth were white, sharply powered. Not a tooth was broken. By the time he reached the age of three to four, I had reasoned that he would need a large collar to wear. Rivette was adjusted to fit around Mara's neck. While the radio collar should be tied to the tiger's neck, the animal should not in any way be unpleasant, and should not interfere with other natural activities such as eating and swallowing. I saw the collar tucked between a slit. The radio antenna, which is the collar of the tiger, and the signals are embedded in the back of the collar. The radio transmitter is placed inside a pistol metal container with waterproof resin on the outside. We don't want to lose the collar due to the fact that the tigers like water! The mark 'T - 04' has been marked with special black ink, on Mara . It is the mark of Mara being the fourth of the tigers we captured in Nagarahole.


*This image is copyright of its original author
   
(Mara was repeatedly captured in camera traps)

After reading this, it doesn't seem like Mara had eaten anything before being weighed. As Dr. Karanth wrote, the tiger took the bait less than 5 minutes after they left, and as soon as they were informed, they returned to dart the tiger who went on a marathon while half sedated.

Excelent information, thank you for sharing it.

Now, there is an important point here. All of us know that the information on the Nagarahole tigers came from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002), and they quote the thesis of Dr Karanth from 1993 as the main reference: PREDATOR-PREY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE LARGE MAMMALS OF NAGARAHOLE NATIONAL PARK (INDIA).

However, when I found the full thesis available in the web, there is no information about the captured tigers, no weight or measurements, so I think that the figures published came from a personal communication between Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth.

However, now that we have the transcription of what the original book says, it is clear that the tiger T-04 was not gorged, nor even had the time to eat something of the bait, here is a picture of him captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author


We can see that it doesn't look fat or gorged at all. So we can conclude that the adjustment of 35 kg is too much and that taking in count that he killed the bait and captured in less than a few hours, certainly just a few kg should be adjusted in the best case. Schaller (1975) estimated that an adult lion may take 20 min per kg when eat, but also he says that a tiger rarely eat more than one hour before to stop and rest (Schaller, 1967), so we can estimate that tiger T-4, in the worst of the cases, could have an stomach content of about 6 kg, if the entire operation for capture took more than 2 hours, which I found to ulikely as they were already for the capture when they were informed of the bait kill. But if the entire operation took only one hour before the capture, which is more likely, that stomach content could be no more than 3-4 kg, and this assuming that the tiger started to eat inmmediatelly after it killed the bait, which again, is not what the tigers do (they drag the prey, they lick it and start remouving the hair and after that they start eating, maybe after 15-20 min of this process).

In this case, I don't think that the figure of 215 kg is the correct one for this tiger, and while we do know that male T-01 was gorged (based in the pictures), this is not the case of male T-04 so I will use the figure of 250 kg for this tiger, with minimum, almoust empty, stomach content.

We will need to see the case of male T-03, the bigger one, wich based in Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) it was of 227 kg but that originally weighed 257 kg.

(I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

@Khan85 Also regarding your 280 kg Tiger. I saw the full conversation where he said "he had a meal recently". So making up misleading interpretations wont make you look better. These weight ranges as he said where those from YV Jhala! Jhala wasn't sure about his biggest tiger and gave rounded numbers (280-290, 285, 280). So he has to be contacted although he doesnt seem to answer anymore and therefore I suggest to wait for a long time before asking him again.
Pictures of animals arent always the way to go. We need to look at the description too. 

Description as in, the largest lion of Smuts? I think you should remember that lion appeared gorged to him but actually was empty? Could very well be the case here!

Also the description as in, Dr. Sunquist and Dr. Dinerstein described M105 to be an insanely muscular tiger yet you try to emphasize that he was fat?
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SpinoRex Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-04-2022, 11:01 PM by SpinoRex )

(04-04-2022, 08:54 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: (I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

Of course that male tiger T-04 had stomach content, is OBVIOUS, but I was just placing a bait and you bite it. From all the posters here you are the only one that answered to that post and was the only form that you returned to post again here.

Now, let's talk directly SpinoRex, or I should say "Yusuf", the lion fanatic already banned here, that wants to create a "reputation" just because you have a few new lion weights apparently confirmed (and all of them "empty belly", which is suspicious) and that is only copy-pasting the posts of Waveriders like if he was a real authority. Oh yes, I knew who you are since the beggining when you send me those emails and I was also whatching your posts in Carnivora, but the last post, especifically the one against me and this forum, was too much. I don't like the hipocrate people like you, so I am going to prepare an especific post answering against your attacks and the false information that you are spreading, in a direct form and not like you, showing one face here and other face in Carnivore and also Discord. 


By the way, there is no confusion about the male T-01, all posters know which tiger is him, in fact Dr Karanth told me that the male that is quoted as 230 kg in this book and 240 kg in other book, actually weighed 238 kg including the resent meal.

@peter, @sanjay and @tigerluver,  here is the link where he acused our forum of bias. Check the post 11525 https://carnivora.net/lion-v-tiger-t19-s11520.html

Guate,

Maybe i went too far on my post on carnivora but my criticism about you didnt change. I had a discussion with you on YouTube, which confirmed my point. Although the question should be: How you ended up on abhishek singh's YouTube channel?

I dont hate people that have other views. There are countless users here but there is a reason why I have a special problem with you and not with other users let's say peter.

You criticize me as being a fanatic. I can assure you that in this forum there are well known fanatics that were proven to be liars and ignorant users and these persons are highly respected by some users here. Many users here have different faces in other forums and it isnt just me.

A forum cant be biased but some users definitely. I can show countless examples but at the end It will make the atmosphere even more bad. The thing I wanted to say is that Karanth did so and therefore there shouldn't be any discussion about this. Therefore i tend to use what scientists adviced to use. Estimations arent always 100% correct like with M91 and no one denied it. 

Now as you doubted my datas I gathered in emails... I will sum it up (Maybe I forgot some). * means it was confirmed to other users.

- 1 males from Etosha (didnt eat for 4 days)
- 1 male from Madikwe (*)
- 1 male from Tintswalo (*)
- 1 male from SanParks 
-  The Zero Lion (Empty and with stomach content) (*)

After all I will be banned again ig. But my advice to you is to not ban the IP as it's only a VPN. If there is a chance I would like to have a permission that I can only post in those lion picture threads.

And I'm not copy and pasting Waveriders except that for Smythies. I am aware of those datas and made my own conclusions. 

If you felt too much offended dont take it that personally. I do know you have the knowledge but as I said there are characteristics that I dont like. (The discussion about the weights for the etosha lions as an example).
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SpinoRex Offline
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(04-04-2022, 10:45 PM)Khan85 Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 12:41 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-25-2021, 01:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote: I received Dr. Ullas Karanth's book, "Hulirayana Akashavani" (translation - Tiger Radio-collaring)


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Unfortunately, the book is in Kannada language which is a regional language spoken in Southern India (where Dr. Karanth is from) so I am having a difficult time trying to translate. 
I'll keep posting as I find new information worth sharing. 

 #1. Capture of T-04 aka Mara

pp. 101 to 105

The clock cared - 9.07 A.M. That is, within five minutes of my departure, the tiger caught prey. The tiger is likely not to go that far. Thus the traders did not need to chase the tiger. Chinnappa asked the team to be quiet. Although I only saw the tiger a few times, my aim was correct

I was sure it had reached the base. The trailmen took out the syringe which had been ripped from the tiger's thigh. The syringe was empty. This proved that the drug was inside the tiger's body. Now we have to find the tiger. There is a life - threatening danger when researchers search for a darted tiger. None of my team members here have such anxiety. We need to find the tiger now. Under the direction of Chinnappan, team members sought out the traces of the tiger. A trail of thick bedding and hardwood in the dryer can detect! But neither the Chinnappan's trailblazer, there is a leaf litter, a finger tiger in the dust - so that all the signs that are incomprehensible to the rest are clearly visible to them. Anesthesia can cause the tiger's hind legs to lose control of the body. Tiger gets to the ground without being able to move on the front legs. We checked whether the mud had crossed the road towards the tiger toll, or if it had crossed back into the forest. Suddenly, there was a shout. Raju is shocked that something tragic has happened before he can convince us that he is Raju voice came from the forest - "Tiger tangle sir!" Everybody rushed to the sound of the tiger, sitting on a tree and observing the movements of the tiger. This is not the same as Raju Hederupa, who never went back. The first time I anesthetized a tiger in Nagarahole.

Sunquist was with us then. Our team members were only twenty meters away when they and I and Chinnappa were testing the tiger. Despite repeated calls, even though the summoner repeatedly called that there is no danger, they did not come close ! Despite being anesthetized, the tiger did not appear to be fully immobilized. When it landed, its orange eyes were full and staring. The illusion must be born now and then to leave. Anesthetic is a ' dissociative anesthetic ' so that the tiger is inactive but does not look dull and the eye is wide open. The tiger rolls over its tongue. None of my trafficking shepherds would come near the darted tiger. I, Sunquist, Chinnappa and Subbayya are the only ones who have been involved in tiger care. Subbayya is a disciplined planter who, like the cowboy of British times, is a believer in Chinnappan. But none of our twelve remaining members of the faith came near the tiger! At the base there was only the co operation of a strong - willed, tiger mustache guard. Once the tiger is anesthetized and sleeps, there will be a hundred jobs. The body of the tiger must be kept water cooled. The chest, spray, body measure, weight this tiger wound treatment ... " Come and do nothing"... Came ten thousand feet before us, and one step of them came nearer to death. Twelve people flew in all directions ! The young tree bends down and touches the ground like a rainbow , and the sight of the five young men gazing blankly at the sight of where they came from is a spectacular sight ! This story of Zindu reminded him that all the traders were laughing and joking about their own charm. The excitement of the tiger now had lightened the burden of everyone's body. But the work is not over here. We needed work to be done. Since the tiger is our fourth capture, everybody is well convinced of their specific task. Everybody got into skittering. It was a huge male tiger, which Chinnappan named ' Mara'. Mara is the Kannada name for the love goddess Sundararanga Manmatha. But I remember the explanation given by Chinnappan for the name 'Mara'. " When I was a young boy, there was a sturdy two - year - old in our village, Mara was his name. When I saw this tiger, I wrote down the size of his tiger body on the information form, with the head and body length being 189 cm, Tail length 100 cm, Total 289 cm . Similarly for the head , chest circumference , etc.

How can a I lift the weight of a tiger ? We have to weigh Mara. We must use all our manpower for this. All our team members are farmers. We layed the tiger on a net made of thin nylon fishbone. The net was wrapped around the tiger, leaving only the tail tapping out. The hangar was fastened with a plastic rope, and the end of the rope was fastened to a large stinging bracket. We fastened the two ends of the sash to a thick wooden rope and hung the rope into the rings. All at once, the people raised their hands and raised the tiger one inch from the ground! Mara is a massive tiger who weighs 250 kilograms. When the tiger didn't wake up throughout the day, it is not advisable to let the sun go down and cool it again. Nanjappa gave Mara another anesthetic. Mara's mouth opened and I examined his teeth. Each tiger's teeth tell a history of its life. Tigers less than eleven months have milk teeth. These teeth are not as sturdy as bay teeth. As they grow older, their hard teeth come. Milk teeth fall out. By the age of 18 months, tigers have sturdy teeth. During the first few years of tiger puberty, its teeth are very sharp. Pinkish tint to fine white teeth. The tiger who are very old, have lost, eroded and severely shredded teeth. Fighting with others also cause a tooth fracture. Gradually the yellow moss accumulates on the tooth and turns brown. If we capture a young tiger, its neck will not reach full maturity. 

Sunquist had shown us the radio collar and cut it into two pieces and the rivets between the other two strips. As a young tiger grows, so does its neck circumference. Gradually the rhythm of the ringed eel will gradually rust and the leather bar will decay.

However, Mara wasn't fully grown, his teeth were white, sharply powered. Not a tooth was broken. By the time he reached the age of three to four, I had reasoned that he would need a large collar to wear. Rivette was adjusted to fit around Mara's neck. While the radio collar should be tied to the tiger's neck, the animal should not in any way be unpleasant, and should not interfere with other natural activities such as eating and swallowing. I saw the collar tucked between a slit. The radio antenna, which is the collar of the tiger, and the signals are embedded in the back of the collar. The radio transmitter is placed inside a pistol metal container with waterproof resin on the outside. We don't want to lose the collar due to the fact that the tigers like water! The mark 'T - 04' has been marked with special black ink, on Mara . It is the mark of Mara being the fourth of the tigers we captured in Nagarahole.


*This image is copyright of its original author
   
(Mara was repeatedly captured in camera traps)

After reading this, it doesn't seem like Mara had eaten anything before being weighed. As Dr. Karanth wrote, the tiger took the bait less than 5 minutes after they left, and as soon as they were informed, they returned to dart the tiger who went on a marathon while half sedated.

Excelent information, thank you for sharing it.

Now, there is an important point here. All of us know that the information on the Nagarahole tigers came from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002), and they quote the thesis of Dr Karanth from 1993 as the main reference: PREDATOR-PREY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE LARGE MAMMALS OF NAGARAHOLE NATIONAL PARK (INDIA).

However, when I found the full thesis available in the web, there is no information about the captured tigers, no weight or measurements, so I think that the figures published came from a personal communication between Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth.

However, now that we have the transcription of what the original book says, it is clear that the tiger T-04 was not gorged, nor even had the time to eat something of the bait, here is a picture of him captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author


We can see that it doesn't look fat or gorged at all. So we can conclude that the adjustment of 35 kg is too much and that taking in count that he killed the bait and captured in less than a few hours, certainly just a few kg should be adjusted in the best case. Schaller (1975) estimated that an adult lion may take 20 min per kg when eat, but also he says that a tiger rarely eat more than one hour before to stop and rest (Schaller, 1967), so we can estimate that tiger T-4, in the worst of the cases, could have an stomach content of about 6 kg, if the entire operation for capture took more than 2 hours, which I found to ulikely as they were already for the capture when they were informed of the bait kill. But if the entire operation took only one hour before the capture, which is more likely, that stomach content could be no more than 3-4 kg, and this assuming that the tiger started to eat inmmediatelly after it killed the bait, which again, is not what the tigers do (they drag the prey, they lick it and start remouving the hair and after that they start eating, maybe after 15-20 min of this process).

In this case, I don't think that the figure of 215 kg is the correct one for this tiger, and while we do know that male T-01 was gorged (based in the pictures), this is not the case of male T-04 so I will use the figure of 250 kg for this tiger, with minimum, almoust empty, stomach content.

We will need to see the case of male T-03, the bigger one, wich based in Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) it was of 227 kg but that originally weighed 257 kg.

(I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

@Khan85 Also regarding your 280 kg Tiger. I saw the full conversation where he said "he had a meal recently". So making up misleading interpretations wont make you look better. These weight ranges as he said where those from YV Jhala! Jhala wasn't sure about his biggest tiger and gave rounded numbers (280-290, 285, 280). So he has to be contacted although he doesnt seem to answer anymore and therefore I suggest to wait for a long time before asking him again.
Pictures of animals arent always the way to go. We need to look at the description too. 

Description as in, the largest lion of Smuts? I think you should remember that lion appeared gorged to him but actually was empty? Could very well be the case here!

Also the description as in, Dr. Sunquist and Dr. Dinerstein described M105 to be an insanely muscular tiger yet you try to emphasize that he was fat?

But I'm not onlyusing the picture (I'm not even the person who is adjusting those animals)

You tried that with Smuts countless times. Do that what makes you feel better. Also a wild cat cant get "fat". Cats are muscular in every term even those being extremely bulky. I doubt my other post contains the words: "M105 was fat"
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United States Khan85 Offline
Animal admirer & Vegan
***
( This post was last modified: 04-04-2022, 11:12 PM by Khan85 )

(04-04-2022, 10:56 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:45 PM)Khan85 Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 12:41 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-25-2021, 01:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote: I received Dr. Ullas Karanth's book, "Hulirayana Akashavani" (translation - Tiger Radio-collaring)


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Unfortunately, the book is in Kannada language which is a regional language spoken in Southern India (where Dr. Karanth is from) so I am having a difficult time trying to translate. 
I'll keep posting as I find new information worth sharing. 

 #1. Capture of T-04 aka Mara

pp. 101 to 105

The clock cared - 9.07 A.M. That is, within five minutes of my departure, the tiger caught prey. The tiger is likely not to go that far. Thus the traders did not need to chase the tiger. Chinnappa asked the team to be quiet. Although I only saw the tiger a few times, my aim was correct

I was sure it had reached the base. The trailmen took out the syringe which had been ripped from the tiger's thigh. The syringe was empty. This proved that the drug was inside the tiger's body. Now we have to find the tiger. There is a life - threatening danger when researchers search for a darted tiger. None of my team members here have such anxiety. We need to find the tiger now. Under the direction of Chinnappan, team members sought out the traces of the tiger. A trail of thick bedding and hardwood in the dryer can detect! But neither the Chinnappan's trailblazer, there is a leaf litter, a finger tiger in the dust - so that all the signs that are incomprehensible to the rest are clearly visible to them. Anesthesia can cause the tiger's hind legs to lose control of the body. Tiger gets to the ground without being able to move on the front legs. We checked whether the mud had crossed the road towards the tiger toll, or if it had crossed back into the forest. Suddenly, there was a shout. Raju is shocked that something tragic has happened before he can convince us that he is Raju voice came from the forest - "Tiger tangle sir!" Everybody rushed to the sound of the tiger, sitting on a tree and observing the movements of the tiger. This is not the same as Raju Hederupa, who never went back. The first time I anesthetized a tiger in Nagarahole.

Sunquist was with us then. Our team members were only twenty meters away when they and I and Chinnappa were testing the tiger. Despite repeated calls, even though the summoner repeatedly called that there is no danger, they did not come close ! Despite being anesthetized, the tiger did not appear to be fully immobilized. When it landed, its orange eyes were full and staring. The illusion must be born now and then to leave. Anesthetic is a ' dissociative anesthetic ' so that the tiger is inactive but does not look dull and the eye is wide open. The tiger rolls over its tongue. None of my trafficking shepherds would come near the darted tiger. I, Sunquist, Chinnappa and Subbayya are the only ones who have been involved in tiger care. Subbayya is a disciplined planter who, like the cowboy of British times, is a believer in Chinnappan. But none of our twelve remaining members of the faith came near the tiger! At the base there was only the co operation of a strong - willed, tiger mustache guard. Once the tiger is anesthetized and sleeps, there will be a hundred jobs. The body of the tiger must be kept water cooled. The chest, spray, body measure, weight this tiger wound treatment ... " Come and do nothing"... Came ten thousand feet before us, and one step of them came nearer to death. Twelve people flew in all directions ! The young tree bends down and touches the ground like a rainbow , and the sight of the five young men gazing blankly at the sight of where they came from is a spectacular sight ! This story of Zindu reminded him that all the traders were laughing and joking about their own charm. The excitement of the tiger now had lightened the burden of everyone's body. But the work is not over here. We needed work to be done. Since the tiger is our fourth capture, everybody is well convinced of their specific task. Everybody got into skittering. It was a huge male tiger, which Chinnappan named ' Mara'. Mara is the Kannada name for the love goddess Sundararanga Manmatha. But I remember the explanation given by Chinnappan for the name 'Mara'. " When I was a young boy, there was a sturdy two - year - old in our village, Mara was his name. When I saw this tiger, I wrote down the size of his tiger body on the information form, with the head and body length being 189 cm, Tail length 100 cm, Total 289 cm . Similarly for the head , chest circumference , etc.

How can a I lift the weight of a tiger ? We have to weigh Mara. We must use all our manpower for this. All our team members are farmers. We layed the tiger on a net made of thin nylon fishbone. The net was wrapped around the tiger, leaving only the tail tapping out. The hangar was fastened with a plastic rope, and the end of the rope was fastened to a large stinging bracket. We fastened the two ends of the sash to a thick wooden rope and hung the rope into the rings. All at once, the people raised their hands and raised the tiger one inch from the ground! Mara is a massive tiger who weighs 250 kilograms. When the tiger didn't wake up throughout the day, it is not advisable to let the sun go down and cool it again. Nanjappa gave Mara another anesthetic. Mara's mouth opened and I examined his teeth. Each tiger's teeth tell a history of its life. Tigers less than eleven months have milk teeth. These teeth are not as sturdy as bay teeth. As they grow older, their hard teeth come. Milk teeth fall out. By the age of 18 months, tigers have sturdy teeth. During the first few years of tiger puberty, its teeth are very sharp. Pinkish tint to fine white teeth. The tiger who are very old, have lost, eroded and severely shredded teeth. Fighting with others also cause a tooth fracture. Gradually the yellow moss accumulates on the tooth and turns brown. If we capture a young tiger, its neck will not reach full maturity. 

Sunquist had shown us the radio collar and cut it into two pieces and the rivets between the other two strips. As a young tiger grows, so does its neck circumference. Gradually the rhythm of the ringed eel will gradually rust and the leather bar will decay.

However, Mara wasn't fully grown, his teeth were white, sharply powered. Not a tooth was broken. By the time he reached the age of three to four, I had reasoned that he would need a large collar to wear. Rivette was adjusted to fit around Mara's neck. While the radio collar should be tied to the tiger's neck, the animal should not in any way be unpleasant, and should not interfere with other natural activities such as eating and swallowing. I saw the collar tucked between a slit. The radio antenna, which is the collar of the tiger, and the signals are embedded in the back of the collar. The radio transmitter is placed inside a pistol metal container with waterproof resin on the outside. We don't want to lose the collar due to the fact that the tigers like water! The mark 'T - 04' has been marked with special black ink, on Mara . It is the mark of Mara being the fourth of the tigers we captured in Nagarahole.


*This image is copyright of its original author
   
(Mara was repeatedly captured in camera traps)

After reading this, it doesn't seem like Mara had eaten anything before being weighed. As Dr. Karanth wrote, the tiger took the bait less than 5 minutes after they left, and as soon as they were informed, they returned to dart the tiger who went on a marathon while half sedated.

Excelent information, thank you for sharing it.

Now, there is an important point here. All of us know that the information on the Nagarahole tigers came from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002), and they quote the thesis of Dr Karanth from 1993 as the main reference: PREDATOR-PREY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE LARGE MAMMALS OF NAGARAHOLE NATIONAL PARK (INDIA).

However, when I found the full thesis available in the web, there is no information about the captured tigers, no weight or measurements, so I think that the figures published came from a personal communication between Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth.

However, now that we have the transcription of what the original book says, it is clear that the tiger T-04 was not gorged, nor even had the time to eat something of the bait, here is a picture of him captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author


We can see that it doesn't look fat or gorged at all. So we can conclude that the adjustment of 35 kg is too much and that taking in count that he killed the bait and captured in less than a few hours, certainly just a few kg should be adjusted in the best case. Schaller (1975) estimated that an adult lion may take 20 min per kg when eat, but also he says that a tiger rarely eat more than one hour before to stop and rest (Schaller, 1967), so we can estimate that tiger T-4, in the worst of the cases, could have an stomach content of about 6 kg, if the entire operation for capture took more than 2 hours, which I found to ulikely as they were already for the capture when they were informed of the bait kill. But if the entire operation took only one hour before the capture, which is more likely, that stomach content could be no more than 3-4 kg, and this assuming that the tiger started to eat inmmediatelly after it killed the bait, which again, is not what the tigers do (they drag the prey, they lick it and start remouving the hair and after that they start eating, maybe after 15-20 min of this process).

In this case, I don't think that the figure of 215 kg is the correct one for this tiger, and while we do know that male T-01 was gorged (based in the pictures), this is not the case of male T-04 so I will use the figure of 250 kg for this tiger, with minimum, almoust empty, stomach content.

We will need to see the case of male T-03, the bigger one, wich based in Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) it was of 227 kg but that originally weighed 257 kg.

(I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

@Khan85 Also regarding your 280 kg Tiger. I saw the full conversation where he said "he had a meal recently". So making up misleading interpretations wont make you look better. These weight ranges as he said where those from YV Jhala! Jhala wasn't sure about his biggest tiger and gave rounded numbers (280-290, 285, 280). So he has to be contacted although he doesnt seem to answer anymore and therefore I suggest to wait for a long time before asking him again.
Pictures of animals arent always the way to go. We need to look at the description too. 

Description as in, the largest lion of Smuts? I think you should remember that lion appeared gorged to him but actually was empty? Could very well be the case here!

Also the description as in, Dr. Sunquist and Dr. Dinerstein described M105 to be an insanely muscular tiger yet you try to emphasize that he was fat?

But I'm not onlyusing the picture (I'm not even the person who is adjusting those animals)

You tried that with Smuts countless times. Do that what makes you feel better. Also a wild cat cant get "fat". Cats are muscular in every term even those being extremely bulky. I doubt my other post contains the words: "M105 was fat"

Quote:You tried that with Smuts countless times.
Am I not supposed to use logical arguments from researchers?

For the record, this is the 3rd thread you're derailing.
Reply

SpinoRex Offline
Banned

(04-04-2022, 10:58 PM)Khan85 Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:56 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:45 PM)Khan85 Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 12:41 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-25-2021, 01:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote: I received Dr. Ullas Karanth's book, "Hulirayana Akashavani" (translation - Tiger Radio-collaring)


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Unfortunately, the book is in Kannada language which is a regional language spoken in Southern India (where Dr. Karanth is from) so I am having a difficult time trying to translate. 
I'll keep posting as I find new information worth sharing. 

 #1. Capture of T-04 aka Mara

pp. 101 to 105

The clock cared - 9.07 A.M. That is, within five minutes of my departure, the tiger caught prey. The tiger is likely not to go that far. Thus the traders did not need to chase the tiger. Chinnappa asked the team to be quiet. Although I only saw the tiger a few times, my aim was correct

I was sure it had reached the base. The trailmen took out the syringe which had been ripped from the tiger's thigh. The syringe was empty. This proved that the drug was inside the tiger's body. Now we have to find the tiger. There is a life - threatening danger when researchers search for a darted tiger. None of my team members here have such anxiety. We need to find the tiger now. Under the direction of Chinnappan, team members sought out the traces of the tiger. A trail of thick bedding and hardwood in the dryer can detect! But neither the Chinnappan's trailblazer, there is a leaf litter, a finger tiger in the dust - so that all the signs that are incomprehensible to the rest are clearly visible to them. Anesthesia can cause the tiger's hind legs to lose control of the body. Tiger gets to the ground without being able to move on the front legs. We checked whether the mud had crossed the road towards the tiger toll, or if it had crossed back into the forest. Suddenly, there was a shout. Raju is shocked that something tragic has happened before he can convince us that he is Raju voice came from the forest - "Tiger tangle sir!" Everybody rushed to the sound of the tiger, sitting on a tree and observing the movements of the tiger. This is not the same as Raju Hederupa, who never went back. The first time I anesthetized a tiger in Nagarahole.

Sunquist was with us then. Our team members were only twenty meters away when they and I and Chinnappa were testing the tiger. Despite repeated calls, even though the summoner repeatedly called that there is no danger, they did not come close ! Despite being anesthetized, the tiger did not appear to be fully immobilized. When it landed, its orange eyes were full and staring. The illusion must be born now and then to leave. Anesthetic is a ' dissociative anesthetic ' so that the tiger is inactive but does not look dull and the eye is wide open. The tiger rolls over its tongue. None of my trafficking shepherds would come near the darted tiger. I, Sunquist, Chinnappa and Subbayya are the only ones who have been involved in tiger care. Subbayya is a disciplined planter who, like the cowboy of British times, is a believer in Chinnappan. But none of our twelve remaining members of the faith came near the tiger! At the base there was only the co operation of a strong - willed, tiger mustache guard. Once the tiger is anesthetized and sleeps, there will be a hundred jobs. The body of the tiger must be kept water cooled. The chest, spray, body measure, weight this tiger wound treatment ... " Come and do nothing"... Came ten thousand feet before us, and one step of them came nearer to death. Twelve people flew in all directions ! The young tree bends down and touches the ground like a rainbow , and the sight of the five young men gazing blankly at the sight of where they came from is a spectacular sight ! This story of Zindu reminded him that all the traders were laughing and joking about their own charm. The excitement of the tiger now had lightened the burden of everyone's body. But the work is not over here. We needed work to be done. Since the tiger is our fourth capture, everybody is well convinced of their specific task. Everybody got into skittering. It was a huge male tiger, which Chinnappan named ' Mara'. Mara is the Kannada name for the love goddess Sundararanga Manmatha. But I remember the explanation given by Chinnappan for the name 'Mara'. " When I was a young boy, there was a sturdy two - year - old in our village, Mara was his name. When I saw this tiger, I wrote down the size of his tiger body on the information form, with the head and body length being 189 cm, Tail length 100 cm, Total 289 cm . Similarly for the head , chest circumference , etc.

How can a I lift the weight of a tiger ? We have to weigh Mara. We must use all our manpower for this. All our team members are farmers. We layed the tiger on a net made of thin nylon fishbone. The net was wrapped around the tiger, leaving only the tail tapping out. The hangar was fastened with a plastic rope, and the end of the rope was fastened to a large stinging bracket. We fastened the two ends of the sash to a thick wooden rope and hung the rope into the rings. All at once, the people raised their hands and raised the tiger one inch from the ground! Mara is a massive tiger who weighs 250 kilograms. When the tiger didn't wake up throughout the day, it is not advisable to let the sun go down and cool it again. Nanjappa gave Mara another anesthetic. Mara's mouth opened and I examined his teeth. Each tiger's teeth tell a history of its life. Tigers less than eleven months have milk teeth. These teeth are not as sturdy as bay teeth. As they grow older, their hard teeth come. Milk teeth fall out. By the age of 18 months, tigers have sturdy teeth. During the first few years of tiger puberty, its teeth are very sharp. Pinkish tint to fine white teeth. The tiger who are very old, have lost, eroded and severely shredded teeth. Fighting with others also cause a tooth fracture. Gradually the yellow moss accumulates on the tooth and turns brown. If we capture a young tiger, its neck will not reach full maturity. 

Sunquist had shown us the radio collar and cut it into two pieces and the rivets between the other two strips. As a young tiger grows, so does its neck circumference. Gradually the rhythm of the ringed eel will gradually rust and the leather bar will decay.

However, Mara wasn't fully grown, his teeth were white, sharply powered. Not a tooth was broken. By the time he reached the age of three to four, I had reasoned that he would need a large collar to wear. Rivette was adjusted to fit around Mara's neck. While the radio collar should be tied to the tiger's neck, the animal should not in any way be unpleasant, and should not interfere with other natural activities such as eating and swallowing. I saw the collar tucked between a slit. The radio antenna, which is the collar of the tiger, and the signals are embedded in the back of the collar. The radio transmitter is placed inside a pistol metal container with waterproof resin on the outside. We don't want to lose the collar due to the fact that the tigers like water! The mark 'T - 04' has been marked with special black ink, on Mara . It is the mark of Mara being the fourth of the tigers we captured in Nagarahole.


*This image is copyright of its original author
   
(Mara was repeatedly captured in camera traps)

After reading this, it doesn't seem like Mara had eaten anything before being weighed. As Dr. Karanth wrote, the tiger took the bait less than 5 minutes after they left, and as soon as they were informed, they returned to dart the tiger who went on a marathon while half sedated.

Excelent information, thank you for sharing it.

Now, there is an important point here. All of us know that the information on the Nagarahole tigers came from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002), and they quote the thesis of Dr Karanth from 1993 as the main reference: PREDATOR-PREY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE LARGE MAMMALS OF NAGARAHOLE NATIONAL PARK (INDIA).

However, when I found the full thesis available in the web, there is no information about the captured tigers, no weight or measurements, so I think that the figures published came from a personal communication between Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth.

However, now that we have the transcription of what the original book says, it is clear that the tiger T-04 was not gorged, nor even had the time to eat something of the bait, here is a picture of him captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author


We can see that it doesn't look fat or gorged at all. So we can conclude that the adjustment of 35 kg is too much and that taking in count that he killed the bait and captured in less than a few hours, certainly just a few kg should be adjusted in the best case. Schaller (1975) estimated that an adult lion may take 20 min per kg when eat, but also he says that a tiger rarely eat more than one hour before to stop and rest (Schaller, 1967), so we can estimate that tiger T-4, in the worst of the cases, could have an stomach content of about 6 kg, if the entire operation for capture took more than 2 hours, which I found to ulikely as they were already for the capture when they were informed of the bait kill. But if the entire operation took only one hour before the capture, which is more likely, that stomach content could be no more than 3-4 kg, and this assuming that the tiger started to eat inmmediatelly after it killed the bait, which again, is not what the tigers do (they drag the prey, they lick it and start remouving the hair and after that they start eating, maybe after 15-20 min of this process).

In this case, I don't think that the figure of 215 kg is the correct one for this tiger, and while we do know that male T-01 was gorged (based in the pictures), this is not the case of male T-04 so I will use the figure of 250 kg for this tiger, with minimum, almoust empty, stomach content.

We will need to see the case of male T-03, the bigger one, wich based in Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) it was of 227 kg but that originally weighed 257 kg.

(I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

@Khan85 Also regarding your 280 kg Tiger. I saw the full conversation where he said "he had a meal recently". So making up misleading interpretations wont make you look better. These weight ranges as he said where those from YV Jhala! Jhala wasn't sure about his biggest tiger and gave rounded numbers (280-290, 285, 280). So he has to be contacted although he doesnt seem to answer anymore and therefore I suggest to wait for a long time before asking him again.
Pictures of animals arent always the way to go. We need to look at the description too. 

Description as in, the largest lion of Smuts? I think you should remember that lion appeared gorged to him but actually was empty? Could very well be the case here!

Also the description as in, Dr. Sunquist and Dr. Dinerstein described M105 to be an insanely muscular tiger yet you try to emphasize that he was fat?

But I'm not onlyusing the picture (I'm not even the person who is adjusting those animals)

You tried that with Smuts countless times. Do that what makes you feel better. Also a wild cat cant get "fat". Cats are muscular in every term even those being extremely bulky. I doubt my other post contains the words: "M105 was fat"

Quote:You tried that with Smuts countless times.
Am I not supposed to use logical arguments from researchers?

For the record, this is the 3rd thread you're derailing.

You know what I mean. But anyways do what you want.

Pls let's stop arguing here anymore. The case is only about me and guate now.
Reply

SpinoRex Offline
Banned

(04-04-2022, 10:58 PM)Khan85 Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:56 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:45 PM)Khan85 Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 12:41 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-25-2021, 01:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote: I received Dr. Ullas Karanth's book, "Hulirayana Akashavani" (translation - Tiger Radio-collaring)


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Unfortunately, the book is in Kannada language which is a regional language spoken in Southern India (where Dr. Karanth is from) so I am having a difficult time trying to translate. 
I'll keep posting as I find new information worth sharing. 

 #1. Capture of T-04 aka Mara

pp. 101 to 105

The clock cared - 9.07 A.M. That is, within five minutes of my departure, the tiger caught prey. The tiger is likely not to go that far. Thus the traders did not need to chase the tiger. Chinnappa asked the team to be quiet. Although I only saw the tiger a few times, my aim was correct

I was sure it had reached the base. The trailmen took out the syringe which had been ripped from the tiger's thigh. The syringe was empty. This proved that the drug was inside the tiger's body. Now we have to find the tiger. There is a life - threatening danger when researchers search for a darted tiger. None of my team members here have such anxiety. We need to find the tiger now. Under the direction of Chinnappan, team members sought out the traces of the tiger. A trail of thick bedding and hardwood in the dryer can detect! But neither the Chinnappan's trailblazer, there is a leaf litter, a finger tiger in the dust - so that all the signs that are incomprehensible to the rest are clearly visible to them. Anesthesia can cause the tiger's hind legs to lose control of the body. Tiger gets to the ground without being able to move on the front legs. We checked whether the mud had crossed the road towards the tiger toll, or if it had crossed back into the forest. Suddenly, there was a shout. Raju is shocked that something tragic has happened before he can convince us that he is Raju voice came from the forest - "Tiger tangle sir!" Everybody rushed to the sound of the tiger, sitting on a tree and observing the movements of the tiger. This is not the same as Raju Hederupa, who never went back. The first time I anesthetized a tiger in Nagarahole.

Sunquist was with us then. Our team members were only twenty meters away when they and I and Chinnappa were testing the tiger. Despite repeated calls, even though the summoner repeatedly called that there is no danger, they did not come close ! Despite being anesthetized, the tiger did not appear to be fully immobilized. When it landed, its orange eyes were full and staring. The illusion must be born now and then to leave. Anesthetic is a ' dissociative anesthetic ' so that the tiger is inactive but does not look dull and the eye is wide open. The tiger rolls over its tongue. None of my trafficking shepherds would come near the darted tiger. I, Sunquist, Chinnappa and Subbayya are the only ones who have been involved in tiger care. Subbayya is a disciplined planter who, like the cowboy of British times, is a believer in Chinnappan. But none of our twelve remaining members of the faith came near the tiger! At the base there was only the co operation of a strong - willed, tiger mustache guard. Once the tiger is anesthetized and sleeps, there will be a hundred jobs. The body of the tiger must be kept water cooled. The chest, spray, body measure, weight this tiger wound treatment ... " Come and do nothing"... Came ten thousand feet before us, and one step of them came nearer to death. Twelve people flew in all directions ! The young tree bends down and touches the ground like a rainbow , and the sight of the five young men gazing blankly at the sight of where they came from is a spectacular sight ! This story of Zindu reminded him that all the traders were laughing and joking about their own charm. The excitement of the tiger now had lightened the burden of everyone's body. But the work is not over here. We needed work to be done. Since the tiger is our fourth capture, everybody is well convinced of their specific task. Everybody got into skittering. It was a huge male tiger, which Chinnappan named ' Mara'. Mara is the Kannada name for the love goddess Sundararanga Manmatha. But I remember the explanation given by Chinnappan for the name 'Mara'. " When I was a young boy, there was a sturdy two - year - old in our village, Mara was his name. When I saw this tiger, I wrote down the size of his tiger body on the information form, with the head and body length being 189 cm, Tail length 100 cm, Total 289 cm . Similarly for the head , chest circumference , etc.

How can a I lift the weight of a tiger ? We have to weigh Mara. We must use all our manpower for this. All our team members are farmers. We layed the tiger on a net made of thin nylon fishbone. The net was wrapped around the tiger, leaving only the tail tapping out. The hangar was fastened with a plastic rope, and the end of the rope was fastened to a large stinging bracket. We fastened the two ends of the sash to a thick wooden rope and hung the rope into the rings. All at once, the people raised their hands and raised the tiger one inch from the ground! Mara is a massive tiger who weighs 250 kilograms. When the tiger didn't wake up throughout the day, it is not advisable to let the sun go down and cool it again. Nanjappa gave Mara another anesthetic. Mara's mouth opened and I examined his teeth. Each tiger's teeth tell a history of its life. Tigers less than eleven months have milk teeth. These teeth are not as sturdy as bay teeth. As they grow older, their hard teeth come. Milk teeth fall out. By the age of 18 months, tigers have sturdy teeth. During the first few years of tiger puberty, its teeth are very sharp. Pinkish tint to fine white teeth. The tiger who are very old, have lost, eroded and severely shredded teeth. Fighting with others also cause a tooth fracture. Gradually the yellow moss accumulates on the tooth and turns brown. If we capture a young tiger, its neck will not reach full maturity. 

Sunquist had shown us the radio collar and cut it into two pieces and the rivets between the other two strips. As a young tiger grows, so does its neck circumference. Gradually the rhythm of the ringed eel will gradually rust and the leather bar will decay.

However, Mara wasn't fully grown, his teeth were white, sharply powered. Not a tooth was broken. By the time he reached the age of three to four, I had reasoned that he would need a large collar to wear. Rivette was adjusted to fit around Mara's neck. While the radio collar should be tied to the tiger's neck, the animal should not in any way be unpleasant, and should not interfere with other natural activities such as eating and swallowing. I saw the collar tucked between a slit. The radio antenna, which is the collar of the tiger, and the signals are embedded in the back of the collar. The radio transmitter is placed inside a pistol metal container with waterproof resin on the outside. We don't want to lose the collar due to the fact that the tigers like water! The mark 'T - 04' has been marked with special black ink, on Mara . It is the mark of Mara being the fourth of the tigers we captured in Nagarahole.


*This image is copyright of its original author
   
(Mara was repeatedly captured in camera traps)

After reading this, it doesn't seem like Mara had eaten anything before being weighed. As Dr. Karanth wrote, the tiger took the bait less than 5 minutes after they left, and as soon as they were informed, they returned to dart the tiger who went on a marathon while half sedated.

Excelent information, thank you for sharing it.

Now, there is an important point here. All of us know that the information on the Nagarahole tigers came from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002), and they quote the thesis of Dr Karanth from 1993 as the main reference: PREDATOR-PREY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE LARGE MAMMALS OF NAGARAHOLE NATIONAL PARK (INDIA).

However, when I found the full thesis available in the web, there is no information about the captured tigers, no weight or measurements, so I think that the figures published came from a personal communication between Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth.

However, now that we have the transcription of what the original book says, it is clear that the tiger T-04 was not gorged, nor even had the time to eat something of the bait, here is a picture of him captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author


We can see that it doesn't look fat or gorged at all. So we can conclude that the adjustment of 35 kg is too much and that taking in count that he killed the bait and captured in less than a few hours, certainly just a few kg should be adjusted in the best case. Schaller (1975) estimated that an adult lion may take 20 min per kg when eat, but also he says that a tiger rarely eat more than one hour before to stop and rest (Schaller, 1967), so we can estimate that tiger T-4, in the worst of the cases, could have an stomach content of about 6 kg, if the entire operation for capture took more than 2 hours, which I found to ulikely as they were already for the capture when they were informed of the bait kill. But if the entire operation took only one hour before the capture, which is more likely, that stomach content could be no more than 3-4 kg, and this assuming that the tiger started to eat inmmediatelly after it killed the bait, which again, is not what the tigers do (they drag the prey, they lick it and start remouving the hair and after that they start eating, maybe after 15-20 min of this process).

In this case, I don't think that the figure of 215 kg is the correct one for this tiger, and while we do know that male T-01 was gorged (based in the pictures), this is not the case of male T-04 so I will use the figure of 250 kg for this tiger, with minimum, almoust empty, stomach content.

We will need to see the case of male T-03, the bigger one, wich based in Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) it was of 227 kg but that originally weighed 257 kg.

(I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

@Khan85 Also regarding your 280 kg Tiger. I saw the full conversation where he said "he had a meal recently". So making up misleading interpretations wont make you look better. These weight ranges as he said where those from YV Jhala! Jhala wasn't sure about his biggest tiger and gave rounded numbers (280-290, 285, 280). So he has to be contacted although he doesnt seem to answer anymore and therefore I suggest to wait for a long time before asking him again.
Pictures of animals arent always the way to go. We need to look at the description too. 

Description as in, the largest lion of Smuts? I think you should remember that lion appeared gorged to him but actually was empty? Could very well be the case here!

Also the description as in, Dr. Sunquist and Dr. Dinerstein described M105 to be an insanely muscular tiger yet you try to emphasize that he was fat?

But I'm not onlyusing the picture (I'm not even the person who is adjusting those animals)

You tried that with Smuts countless times. Do that what makes you feel better. Also a wild cat cant get "fat". Cats are muscular in every term even those being extremely bulky. I doubt my other post contains the words: "M105 was fat"

Quote:You tried that with Smuts countless times.
Am I not supposed to use logical arguments from researchers?

For the record, this is the 3rd thread you're derailing.

You know what I mean. But anyways do what you want.

Pls let's stop arguing here anymore. The case is only about me and guate now. I think I provided many interesting infos regardless of my identity.
Reply

Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****

(04-04-2022, 10:50 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: Guate,

Maybe i went too far on my post on carnivora but my criticism about you didnt change. I had a discussion with you on YouTube, which confirmed my point. Although the question should be: How you ended up on abhishek singh's YouTube channel?

I dont hate people that have other views. There are countless users here but there is a reason why I have a special problem with you and not with other users let's say peter.




You criticize me as being a fanatic. I can assure you that in this forum there are well known fanatics that were proven to be liars and ignorant users and these persons are highly respected by some users here. Many users here have different faces in other forums and it isnt just me.

A forum cant be biased but some users definitely. I can show countless examples but at the end It will make the atmosphere even more bad. The thing I wanted to say is that Karanth did so and therefore there shouldn't be any discussion about this. Therefore i tend to use what scientists adviced to use. Estimations arent always 100% correct like with M91 and no one denied it. 

Now as you doubted my datas I gathered in emails... I will sum it up (Maybe I forgot some). * means it was confirmed to other users.

- 1 males from Etosha (didnt eat for 4 days)
- 1 male from Madikwe (*)
- 1 male from Tintswalo (*)
- 1 male from SanParks 
-  The Zero Lion (Empty and with stomach content) (*)

After all I will be banned again ig. But my advice to you is to not ban the IP as it's only a VPN. If there is a chance I would like to have a permission that I can only post in those lion picture threads.




And I'm not copy and pasting Waveriders except that for Smythies. I am aware of those datas and made my own conclusions. 

If you felt too much offended dont take it that personally. I do know you have the knowledge but as I said there are characteristics that I dont like. (The discussion about the weights for the etosha lions as an example).

Don't came with me with this, it is OBVIOUS that you hate me, personally and directly, and the only reason is beacuse I love the animal that you hate. I simple don't care about you or the other liars from Carnivora, I just continue with my life, share of information and the correct interpretations about the life of tigers, which is my passion, but is you and your people that had a grudge against me.

And what discussion in Youtube? There are several as far I remember and I only shared the information that I have, so what point are you trying to confirm? That I love tigers? That I don't like liars? That is something that EVERYONE knows here. Also, do you know that applications like Youtube, Facebook and others had bots that suggest you channels and pages in base of your navigation history? That is why I found that channel, and I just wanted to share information, simple as that. In fact, I see other 3 channels about lions and tigers and I like the pictures tehre but when I read the comments I don't know if I can laght on the ignorance of some of those persons or just ignore them and don't waste time to correct them.

About Karanth, no one is changing the figures, ok? It was just the suggestion from Khan85 based in the book and that is a fact that we can't deny. Even worst, when I checked the source used by Dr Sunquist for the tigers fo Dr Karanth, I fount it and there is no information about the tigers there, so where he got them? I had always used the values of Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) in my tables, so you can check than that is the source that I quote for those tigers, so your dramatic claim is unnecesary.

About been banned, I am not an Administrator and if you check I am not asking to ban you, but certainly if you lie, and you act like you have done, how we can trust in you?

And again, I am not offended as I say before, I honestly don't care what you think, but what I don't like is the hipocresy, is the discredit of the work with no bases, is the stubborness of trying to twist the information just to follow and agenda. Maybe in the future you will see my point of view, but certainly if you continue with this thing of "lion vs tiger" with that sick people that certainly do not sleep thinking in what other thing they can use to overrate the lion over the tiger, you are not going to grow. Many people here has done that, left the futile debate and focus in the information, I done it too, I left the old "attack more" from AVA and I started focus in the information itself and I discovered so many marvelous things about tigers and other animals that improved my personal knowledge and fame between the cat fans in the world.

Even then, there are some points that you mention in your post that are falacies and that I am going to discuss here, so the reader can choose between to believe in the fact and the deep explanation, or just follow random ideas from a group of pleaple that are happy seend animals killing each other.
3 users Like GuateGojira's post
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United States Khan85 Offline
Animal admirer & Vegan
***
( This post was last modified: 04-04-2022, 11:43 PM by Khan85 )

(04-04-2022, 11:23 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:58 PM)Khan85 Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:56 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:45 PM)Khan85 Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 06:27 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 12:41 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(07-25-2021, 01:11 PM)Khan85 Wrote: I received Dr. Ullas Karanth's book, "Hulirayana Akashavani" (translation - Tiger Radio-collaring)


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Unfortunately, the book is in Kannada language which is a regional language spoken in Southern India (where Dr. Karanth is from) so I am having a difficult time trying to translate. 
I'll keep posting as I find new information worth sharing. 

 #1. Capture of T-04 aka Mara

pp. 101 to 105

The clock cared - 9.07 A.M. That is, within five minutes of my departure, the tiger caught prey. The tiger is likely not to go that far. Thus the traders did not need to chase the tiger. Chinnappa asked the team to be quiet. Although I only saw the tiger a few times, my aim was correct

I was sure it had reached the base. The trailmen took out the syringe which had been ripped from the tiger's thigh. The syringe was empty. This proved that the drug was inside the tiger's body. Now we have to find the tiger. There is a life - threatening danger when researchers search for a darted tiger. None of my team members here have such anxiety. We need to find the tiger now. Under the direction of Chinnappan, team members sought out the traces of the tiger. A trail of thick bedding and hardwood in the dryer can detect! But neither the Chinnappan's trailblazer, there is a leaf litter, a finger tiger in the dust - so that all the signs that are incomprehensible to the rest are clearly visible to them. Anesthesia can cause the tiger's hind legs to lose control of the body. Tiger gets to the ground without being able to move on the front legs. We checked whether the mud had crossed the road towards the tiger toll, or if it had crossed back into the forest. Suddenly, there was a shout. Raju is shocked that something tragic has happened before he can convince us that he is Raju voice came from the forest - "Tiger tangle sir!" Everybody rushed to the sound of the tiger, sitting on a tree and observing the movements of the tiger. This is not the same as Raju Hederupa, who never went back. The first time I anesthetized a tiger in Nagarahole.

Sunquist was with us then. Our team members were only twenty meters away when they and I and Chinnappa were testing the tiger. Despite repeated calls, even though the summoner repeatedly called that there is no danger, they did not come close ! Despite being anesthetized, the tiger did not appear to be fully immobilized. When it landed, its orange eyes were full and staring. The illusion must be born now and then to leave. Anesthetic is a ' dissociative anesthetic ' so that the tiger is inactive but does not look dull and the eye is wide open. The tiger rolls over its tongue. None of my trafficking shepherds would come near the darted tiger. I, Sunquist, Chinnappa and Subbayya are the only ones who have been involved in tiger care. Subbayya is a disciplined planter who, like the cowboy of British times, is a believer in Chinnappan. But none of our twelve remaining members of the faith came near the tiger! At the base there was only the co operation of a strong - willed, tiger mustache guard. Once the tiger is anesthetized and sleeps, there will be a hundred jobs. The body of the tiger must be kept water cooled. The chest, spray, body measure, weight this tiger wound treatment ... " Come and do nothing"... Came ten thousand feet before us, and one step of them came nearer to death. Twelve people flew in all directions ! The young tree bends down and touches the ground like a rainbow , and the sight of the five young men gazing blankly at the sight of where they came from is a spectacular sight ! This story of Zindu reminded him that all the traders were laughing and joking about their own charm. The excitement of the tiger now had lightened the burden of everyone's body. But the work is not over here. We needed work to be done. Since the tiger is our fourth capture, everybody is well convinced of their specific task. Everybody got into skittering. It was a huge male tiger, which Chinnappan named ' Mara'. Mara is the Kannada name for the love goddess Sundararanga Manmatha. But I remember the explanation given by Chinnappan for the name 'Mara'. " When I was a young boy, there was a sturdy two - year - old in our village, Mara was his name. When I saw this tiger, I wrote down the size of his tiger body on the information form, with the head and body length being 189 cm, Tail length 100 cm, Total 289 cm . Similarly for the head , chest circumference , etc.

How can a I lift the weight of a tiger ? We have to weigh Mara. We must use all our manpower for this. All our team members are farmers. We layed the tiger on a net made of thin nylon fishbone. The net was wrapped around the tiger, leaving only the tail tapping out. The hangar was fastened with a plastic rope, and the end of the rope was fastened to a large stinging bracket. We fastened the two ends of the sash to a thick wooden rope and hung the rope into the rings. All at once, the people raised their hands and raised the tiger one inch from the ground! Mara is a massive tiger who weighs 250 kilograms. When the tiger didn't wake up throughout the day, it is not advisable to let the sun go down and cool it again. Nanjappa gave Mara another anesthetic. Mara's mouth opened and I examined his teeth. Each tiger's teeth tell a history of its life. Tigers less than eleven months have milk teeth. These teeth are not as sturdy as bay teeth. As they grow older, their hard teeth come. Milk teeth fall out. By the age of 18 months, tigers have sturdy teeth. During the first few years of tiger puberty, its teeth are very sharp. Pinkish tint to fine white teeth. The tiger who are very old, have lost, eroded and severely shredded teeth. Fighting with others also cause a tooth fracture. Gradually the yellow moss accumulates on the tooth and turns brown. If we capture a young tiger, its neck will not reach full maturity. 

Sunquist had shown us the radio collar and cut it into two pieces and the rivets between the other two strips. As a young tiger grows, so does its neck circumference. Gradually the rhythm of the ringed eel will gradually rust and the leather bar will decay.

However, Mara wasn't fully grown, his teeth were white, sharply powered. Not a tooth was broken. By the time he reached the age of three to four, I had reasoned that he would need a large collar to wear. Rivette was adjusted to fit around Mara's neck. While the radio collar should be tied to the tiger's neck, the animal should not in any way be unpleasant, and should not interfere with other natural activities such as eating and swallowing. I saw the collar tucked between a slit. The radio antenna, which is the collar of the tiger, and the signals are embedded in the back of the collar. The radio transmitter is placed inside a pistol metal container with waterproof resin on the outside. We don't want to lose the collar due to the fact that the tigers like water! The mark 'T - 04' has been marked with special black ink, on Mara . It is the mark of Mara being the fourth of the tigers we captured in Nagarahole.


*This image is copyright of its original author
   
(Mara was repeatedly captured in camera traps)

After reading this, it doesn't seem like Mara had eaten anything before being weighed. As Dr. Karanth wrote, the tiger took the bait less than 5 minutes after they left, and as soon as they were informed, they returned to dart the tiger who went on a marathon while half sedated.

Excelent information, thank you for sharing it.

Now, there is an important point here. All of us know that the information on the Nagarahole tigers came from Sunquist & Sunquist (2002), and they quote the thesis of Dr Karanth from 1993 as the main reference: PREDATOR-PREY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE LARGE MAMMALS OF NAGARAHOLE NATIONAL PARK (INDIA).

However, when I found the full thesis available in the web, there is no information about the captured tigers, no weight or measurements, so I think that the figures published came from a personal communication between Dr Sunquist and Dr Karanth.

However, now that we have the transcription of what the original book says, it is clear that the tiger T-04 was not gorged, nor even had the time to eat something of the bait, here is a picture of him captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author


We can see that it doesn't look fat or gorged at all. So we can conclude that the adjustment of 35 kg is too much and that taking in count that he killed the bait and captured in less than a few hours, certainly just a few kg should be adjusted in the best case. Schaller (1975) estimated that an adult lion may take 20 min per kg when eat, but also he says that a tiger rarely eat more than one hour before to stop and rest (Schaller, 1967), so we can estimate that tiger T-4, in the worst of the cases, could have an stomach content of about 6 kg, if the entire operation for capture took more than 2 hours, which I found to ulikely as they were already for the capture when they were informed of the bait kill. But if the entire operation took only one hour before the capture, which is more likely, that stomach content could be no more than 3-4 kg, and this assuming that the tiger started to eat inmmediatelly after it killed the bait, which again, is not what the tigers do (they drag the prey, they lick it and start remouving the hair and after that they start eating, maybe after 15-20 min of this process).

In this case, I don't think that the figure of 215 kg is the correct one for this tiger, and while we do know that male T-01 was gorged (based in the pictures), this is not the case of male T-04 so I will use the figure of 250 kg for this tiger, with minimum, almoust empty, stomach content.

We will need to see the case of male T-03, the bigger one, wich based in Sunquist & Sunquist (2002) it was of 227 kg but that originally weighed 257 kg.

(I am right now in a conversation with Dr Sunquist)

Sorry but in all honesty what does that even mean? From the pictures he looks definitely gorged / fully fed. He evidently had a meal recently and additionally ate something from the bait although not much as you said (5-10 kg)

Just to clear up some confusion. The male of 240 kg mentioned by karanth was actually the 230 kg male from the book. In Karanth (2003) it was stated that males eat in their first meal 20-35 kg, which obviously refer to the collared males.

Also that would mean that Karanth actually substracted 20, 30 and 35 kg for tigers that were empty, which is weird and obviously a false view.

Karanth basically substracted the estimated stomach content based on their bellies. So the book actually just indicates that he had a meal recently and ate from the bait as well.

@Khan85 Also regarding your 280 kg Tiger. I saw the full conversation where he said "he had a meal recently". So making up misleading interpretations wont make you look better. These weight ranges as he said where those from YV Jhala! Jhala wasn't sure about his biggest tiger and gave rounded numbers (280-290, 285, 280). So he has to be contacted although he doesnt seem to answer anymore and therefore I suggest to wait for a long time before asking him again.
Pictures of animals arent always the way to go. We need to look at the description too. 

Description as in, the largest lion of Smuts? I think you should remember that lion appeared gorged to him but actually was empty? Could very well be the case here!

Also the description as in, Dr. Sunquist and Dr. Dinerstein described M105 to be an insanely muscular tiger yet you try to emphasize that he was fat?

But I'm not onlyusing the picture (I'm not even the person who is adjusting those animals)

You tried that with Smuts countless times. Do that what makes you feel better. Also a wild cat cant get "fat". Cats are muscular in every term even those being extremely bulky. I doubt my other post contains the words: "M105 was fat"

Quote:You tried that with Smuts countless times.
Am I not supposed to use logical arguments from researchers?

For the record, this is the 3rd thread you're derailing.

You know what I mean. But anyways do what you want.

Pls let's stop arguing here anymore. The case is only about me and guate now. I think I provided many interesting infos regardless of my identity.
You indirectly target me in your paragraph and expect me to remain shut about it?

Quote:I can assure you that in this forum there are well known fanatics that were proven to be liars and ignorant users and these persons are highly respected by some users here. 
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