There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
10-07-2022, 04:42 PM( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 04:44 PM by LonePredator )
(10-07-2022, 04:20 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 11:49 AM)LonePredator Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 09:58 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 05:12 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? No way. That's very unlikely.
We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)
The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.
So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).
Your claim is extremely flawed.
You have numerous Tigers who are longer, taller and thicker with weights of 230kgs or less.
The most unbelievable thing about your claim is that you seem to be implying that a Tiger can be longer, taller and thicker than another Tiger but still weigh less. That’s what you are implying, aren’t you??
So basically you are implying that one Tiger can have wayy higher volume than another Tiger but still weigh less than the other Tiger? Then for your information, what you are implying is simply *impossible*.
You don’t even need any complex knowledge of physics or biology to realise this. All Tigers are made of flesh and blood and bones. It’s not like one Tiger is made of metal and the other is made of flesh. All Tigers are basically made up of the same matter.
Things such as Body composition and bone density (basically BMI) can make minimal differences but they are negligible and not nearly enough to make up for huge volume differences between the two specimens unless the Tiger is extremely fat or emaciated.
And even then BMI in Tigers probably doesn’t even vary as much as it does in humans. Do you think it’s possible for a man who is 6’3” and has the same physique as Brock Lesnar to weigh 70kg?? No, it’s not possible. It defies all science.
To conclude: What you are describing is simply impossible according to science.
And this is not the first time you are making unscientific claims. You have once previously claimed that Jaguars are ‘denser’ than Tigers just because they have shorter legs.
You should think about what you are speaking because your claims are just defying all proven science.
What are you talking about?
You claimed at his body length he’d be a minimum of 250kg or more. You have numerous cats who are longer than him who weighed 230kg or less. These cats were also thicker in the chest and/or taller in the shoulder. Any additional weight for your interpretation of “girth” hold no water since that’s a personal opinion and nothing to do with verifiable proof.
Obviously you don’t understand how to correctly use your equation or likes been proven many times before, it’s not valid for determining big cat size.
Read both of my comments again in detail because you obviously did not. And what are you even saying? Wagdoh already weighed 270kg when he was dying so he was obviously at least 270kg in his prime but most likely even heavier. Do we really need to argue about this anymore when it’s already proven?
I do not wish to engage in any debate with you any more when all your arguments are completely devoid of logic.
This Tiger has already weighed 270kg and that document has already made it clear that Wagdoh weighed 270kg on his deathbed. It’s already crystal clear so what are you even trying to prove now? Is the document wrong according to you then??
Please don’t reply to this comment because I don’t intend to continue this debate any further. Hopefully we can have a sensible discussion next time.
(10-07-2022, 05:12 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? No way. That's very unlikely.
We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)
The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.
So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).
Your claim is extremely flawed.
You have numerous Tigers who are longer, taller and thicker with weights of 230kgs or less.
The most unbelievable thing about your claim is that you seem to be implying that a Tiger can be longer, taller and thicker than another Tiger but still weigh less. That’s what you are implying, aren’t you??
So basically you are implying that one Tiger can have wayy higher volume than another Tiger but still weigh less than the other Tiger? Then for your information, what you are implying is simply *impossible*.
You don’t even need any complex knowledge of physics or biology to realise this. All Tigers are made of flesh and blood and bones. It’s not like one Tiger is made of metal and the other is made of flesh. All Tigers are basically made up of the same matter.
Things such as Body composition and bone density (basically BMI) can make minimal differences but they are negligible and not nearly enough to make up for huge volume differences between the two specimens unless the Tiger is extremely fat or emaciated.
And even then BMI in Tigers probably doesn’t even vary as much as it does in humans. Do you think it’s possible for a man who is 6’3” and has the same physique as Brock Lesnar to weigh 70kg?? No, it’s not possible. It defies all science.
To conclude: What you are describing is simply impossible according to science.
And this is not the first time you are making unscientific claims. You have once previously claimed that Jaguars are ‘denser’ than Tigers just because they have shorter legs.
You should think about what you are speaking because your claims are just defying all proven science.
What are you talking about?
You claimed at his body length he’d be a minimum of 250kg or more. You have numerous cats who are longer than him who weighed 230kg or less. These cats were also thicker in the chest and/or taller in the shoulder. Any additional weight for your interpretation of “girth” hold no water since that’s a personal opinion and nothing to do with verifiable proof.
Obviously you don’t understand how to correctly use your equation or likes been proven many times before, it’s not valid for determining big cat size.
Read both of my comments again in detail because you obviously did not. And what are you even saying? Wagdoh already weighed 270kg when he was dying so he was obviously at least 270kg in his prime but most likely even heavier. Do we really need to argue about this anymore when it’s already proven?
I do not wish to engage in any debate with you any more when all your arguments are completely devoid of logic.
This Tiger has already weighed 270kg and that document has already made it clear that Wagdoh weighed 270kg on his deathbed. It’s already crystal clear so what are you even trying to prove now? Is the document wrong according to you then??
Please don’t reply to this comment because I don’t intend to continue this debate any further. Hopefully we can have a sensible discussion next time.
Don’t make insults and false claims then say “don’t respond”
His weight is approximated, right?
That’s what is stated on the report and in writing. Anything else would need verification.
And lastly like has already been shown, his verifiable measurements, you know the ones that exist and are presented have been surpassed by multiple individuals in all 3 categories. This isn’t fantasy, the facts are there so try using logic over opinion.
10-07-2022, 04:59 PM( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 05:12 PM by LonePredator )
(10-07-2022, 04:39 PM)Orpadan Wrote: Pckts pointed out a pretty key thing here. The dead body swells up and is bloated,if you look at the pictures of Wagdoh after his death he clearly was puffed up. I wonder how much weight that added. I am not an expert in this category but am guessing about 20-30kgs pretty easily no?. Another example is KF from Kanha,when he died his body was super puffed up and made him look much heavier than he actually was.
Also pckts is right in saying the measurments of Wagdoh do not really give off a 270kgs Cat. Also the puffiness of Wagdoh after death Definately played a role in making his chest measure thicker than it actually is. His chest could have been around 130 or less in normal circumstances (but no doubt prime wagdoh would have had thicker chest) but now that his chest measured 136cm (after looking pretty swollen) I think it's safe to take away about 6cm??.
Also please make the number clear,is it 210? 240? Or 270? That "7" is a little weird. Anyways this was my take on this and what I thought of it personally.
This process of swelling of the dead body during the stages of decomposition does not increase weight. The body just puffs up but it doesn’t really increase in weight.
This process is called putrefaction. You can find a wikipedia page about it by the name of ‘putrefaction’ where you can read more about it.
10-07-2022, 05:12 PM( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 05:13 PM by LonePredator )
(10-07-2022, 04:50 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 04:42 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 04:20 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 11:49 AM)LonePredator Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 09:58 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 05:12 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? No way. That's very unlikely.
We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)
The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.
So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).
Your claim is extremely flawed.
You have numerous Tigers who are longer, taller and thicker with weights of 230kgs or less.
The most unbelievable thing about your claim is that you seem to be implying that a Tiger can be longer, taller and thicker than another Tiger but still weigh less. That’s what you are implying, aren’t you??
So basically you are implying that one Tiger can have wayy higher volume than another Tiger but still weigh less than the other Tiger? Then for your information, what you are implying is simply *impossible*.
You don’t even need any complex knowledge of physics or biology to realise this. All Tigers are made of flesh and blood and bones. It’s not like one Tiger is made of metal and the other is made of flesh. All Tigers are basically made up of the same matter.
Things such as Body composition and bone density (basically BMI) can make minimal differences but they are negligible and not nearly enough to make up for huge volume differences between the two specimens unless the Tiger is extremely fat or emaciated.
And even then BMI in Tigers probably doesn’t even vary as much as it does in humans. Do you think it’s possible for a man who is 6’3” and has the same physique as Brock Lesnar to weigh 70kg?? No, it’s not possible. It defies all science.
To conclude: What you are describing is simply impossible according to science.
And this is not the first time you are making unscientific claims. You have once previously claimed that Jaguars are ‘denser’ than Tigers just because they have shorter legs.
You should think about what you are speaking because your claims are just defying all proven science.
What are you talking about?
You claimed at his body length he’d be a minimum of 250kg or more. You have numerous cats who are longer than him who weighed 230kg or less. These cats were also thicker in the chest and/or taller in the shoulder. Any additional weight for your interpretation of “girth” hold no water since that’s a personal opinion and nothing to do with verifiable proof.
Obviously you don’t understand how to correctly use your equation or likes been proven many times before, it’s not valid for determining big cat size.
Read both of my comments again in detail because you obviously did not. And what are you even saying? Wagdoh already weighed 270kg when he was dying so he was obviously at least 270kg in his prime but most likely even heavier. Do we really need to argue about this anymore when it’s already proven?
I do not wish to engage in any debate with you any more when all your arguments are completely devoid of logic.
This Tiger has already weighed 270kg and that document has already made it clear that Wagdoh weighed 270kg on his deathbed. It’s already crystal clear so what are you even trying to prove now? Is the document wrong according to you then??
Please don’t reply to this comment because I don’t intend to continue this debate any further. Hopefully we can have a sensible discussion next time.
Don’t make insults and false claims then say “don’t respond”
His weight is approximated, right?
That’s what is stated on the report and in writing. Anything else would need verification.
And lastly like has already been shown, his verifiable measurements, you know the ones that exist and are presented have been surpassed by multiple individuals in all 3 categories. This isn’t fantasy, the facts are there so try using logic over opinion.
Nowhere did I insult you. In fact, I was not even talking to you. You were the one who started responding to my comment with that annoying tone. For some reason, rational arguments feel like ‘insults’ to you and that’s not my problem.
And like I said, I do not wish to continue this debate any further.
Very interesting, now finally we have actual measurments of Wagdoh. the interesting here is the weight, as far as I know dead and bloated animals are not heavier they just look that way. So it won’t affect the weight, but it can however affect the measurments….
Since the measurments does not suggest a 270 kg cat especially one that old. Does it even say 270 kg? I first read 240 kg, then 210 kg… I those who say it’s 270 kg, but is that 100% certain? if that is the case he probably had a lot of fat on him. Still a very impressive male.
I think we just need to get more info on this before we conclude with anything.
10-07-2022, 05:51 PM( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 05:53 PM by LonePredator )
(10-07-2022, 05:24 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Very interesting, now finally we have actual measurments of Wagdoh. the interesting here is the weight, as far as I know dead and bloated animals are not heavier they just look that way. So it won’t affect the weight, but it can however affect the measurments….
Since the measurments does not suggest a 270 kg cat especially one that old. Does it even say 270 kg? I first read 240 kg, then 210 kg… I those who say it’s 270 kg, but is that 100% certain? if that is the case he probably had a lot of fat on him. Still a very impressive male.
I think we just need to get more info on this before we conclude with anything.
The measurements make sense for that weight. A Tiger with 208cm head body length in straight line can surpass 280kg. And yes, 270kg is confirmed. Khan85 has confirmed it from the official who sent him this document.
And bloating can’t really affect the bodylength by more than 1cm and the bodylength is the key here. And Wagdoh was not excessively fat either. He had normal levels of bodyfat.
In the video below, you can see that his carcass doesn’t look particularly fat. In fact, looks quite normal.
10-07-2022, 06:51 PM( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 06:55 PM by LonePredator )
(10-07-2022, 06:26 PM)Orpadan Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 05:51 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 05:24 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Very interesting, now finally we have actual measurments of Wagdoh. the interesting here is the weight, as far as I know dead and bloated animals are not heavier they just look that way. So it won’t affect the weight, but it can however affect the measurments….
Since the measurments does not suggest a 270 kg cat especially one that old. Does it even say 270 kg? I first read 240 kg, then 210 kg… I those who say it’s 270 kg, but is that 100% certain? if that is the case he probably had a lot of fat on him. Still a very impressive male.
I think we just need to get more info on this before we conclude with anything.
The measurements make sense for that weight. A Tiger with 208cm head body length in straight line can surpass 280kg. And yes, 270kg is confirmed. Khan85 has confirmed it from the official who sent him this document.
And bloating can’t really affect the bodylength by more than 1cm and the bodylength is the key here. And Wagdoh was not excessively fat either. He had normal levels of bodyfat.
In the video below, you can see that his carcass doesn’t look particularly fat. In fact, looks quite normal.
The bloating thing doesn't really affect the body length you're right. but We need to also make it clear what protocols were used for his body length measurments. But the chest measurment is affected by the bloating and puffiness though. His normal chest would have been about 130cm. In the paper they do lebel him as fat. Also Khan85 needs to directly ask them again and send a ss here so we can be sure what number they actually wrote...was it 210? 240? 270?.
Where does the document say that he was fat? All I can see in the document is that his carcass was putrefactioned and bloated due to the process of decomposition. We must point out that there’s a big difference between swelling due to putrefaction and being straight up ‘fat’.
As for his chest girth, chest girth alone without bodylength is not the best way to estimate weight. Bodylength has better correlation with weight and also, he was so old that his chest girth likely would’ve shrunk due to old age. We should focus more on bodylength than chest girth.
And I also sent you a video of his carcass on the day of his death. You can see in that video that he was not fat at all. Please see that also.
And I think he was measured in straight line because that is the only method that makes sense. If he was measured over the curves then his straight length would be about 197cm which does not add up with his weight.
208cm in straight line makes perfect sense since he weighed 270kg. And in his prime, he would’ve weighed even more.
(10-07-2022, 05:24 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Very interesting, now finally we have actual measurments of Wagdoh. the interesting here is the weight, as far as I know dead and bloated animals are not heavier they just look that way. So it won’t affect the weight, but it can however affect the measurments….
Since the measurments does not suggest a 270 kg cat especially one that old. Does it even say 270 kg? I first read 240 kg, then 210 kg… I those who say it’s 270 kg, but is that 100% certain? if that is the case he probably had a lot of fat on him. Still a very impressive male.
I think we just need to get more info on this before we conclude with anything.
The measurements make sense for that weight. A Tiger with 208cm head body length in straight line can surpass 280kg. And yes, 270kg is confirmed. Khan85 has confirmed it from the official who sent him this document.
And bloating can’t really affect the bodylength by more than 1cm and the bodylength is the key here. And Wagdoh was not excessively fat either. He had normal levels of bodyfat.
In the video below, you can see that his carcass doesn’t look particularly fat. In fact, looks quite normal.
The bloating thing doesn't really affect the body length you're right. but We need to also make it clear what protocols were used for his body length measurments. But the chest measurment is affected by the bloating and puffiness though. His normal chest would have been about 130cm. In the paper they do lebel him as fat. Also Khan85 needs to directly ask them again and send a ss here so we can be sure what number they actually wrote...was it 210? 240? 270?.
We also need to know who is making the statement and the association they have to process. It’s going to be hard to determine how boating actual affected him.
Most importantly is the protocols used and how/if the weight was actually obtained and by whom.
But assuming the numbers are between the pegs and accurate he’s not a 270kg cat at that stage but should be over 500lbs. Still quite large, but that’s to be expected from him.
Branders 600lber *est* dwarfs Wagdoh in every department while the Sauraha Male *600lb est from a bottomed scale* is more in line with Wagdoh.
It’s probably safe to assume the Sauraha and Wagdoh could be 600lb when full but not near that weight when empty like Branders which still was feeding on a large supply of Buffalo.
@Orpadan Look at that document again. They used "1", "4", "7" in various places. Read the weight again. You will get the answer. There is no reason to spin it further. If Wagdoh has 130cm chest girth, what can we say for other tigers in central india? 110cm?
@Pckts Every park has mix of small and big tigers. Tadoba is no exception. But, you used couple of tadoba weights and bashed tadoba tigers for years as if they are small, inferior tigers. Now, when a big tadoba weight is published, you got shocked and now you are making all sort of excuses. Hope you learnt some lesson. Some of the largest tigers i have seen (Wagdoh, shiva, yeda anna, ookhan, narashimha etc etc) come from tadoba. They definitely preserved some of the big genes.
10-07-2022, 07:14 PM( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 07:14 PM by Pckts )
(10-07-2022, 07:04 PM)GreenForest Wrote: @Orpadan Look at that document again. They used "1", "4", "7" in various places. Read the weight again. You will get the answer. There is no reason to spin it further. If Wagdoh has 130cm chest girth, what can we say for other tigers in central india? 110cm?
@Pckts Every park has mix of small and big tigers. Tadoba is no exception. But, you used couple of tadoba weights and bashed tadoba tigers for years as if they are small, inferior tigers. Now, when a big tadoba weight is published, you got shocked and now you are making all sort of excuses. Hope you learnt some lesson. Some of the largest tigers i have seen (Wagdoh, shiva, yeda anna, ookhan, narashimha etc etc) come from tadoba. They definitely preserved some of the big genes.
Bashed?
I’ve been to Tadoba, Kanha and Pench. It has nothing to do with bashing, I’ve seen it first hand. Spoke with people first hand who’ve been traveling there for years.
The facts are the facts, Teak forests produce smaller Tigers than Sal forests. You have the largest Tiger in Tadoba recorded now right and his measurements are surpassed by numerous Sal Forest Tigers.
It’s pretty simple, Cooler temps, more rain and hilly terrain will produce larger cats assuming all prey density is equal. More prey and / or larger prey will add into that. This is why I think it’s safe to assume Kaziranga Tigers should be the largest alive today.
10-07-2022, 07:17 PM( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 07:21 PM by LonePredator )
(10-07-2022, 07:03 PM)Pckts Wrote: Here is a comparable male in all departments
*This image is copyright of its original author
213cm in HBL but taken over curves so around 208cm in a straight line.
His chest girth is 140cm *4 cm* larger than Wagdoh
Shoulder height unknown but it’s safe to say it’s going to be at least as tall as Wagdoh since he wasn’t a very tall Tiger.
This males weight was 546lbs or 247 kgs.
213cm over the curves would mean 200-203 cm in straight line which totally adds up with a weight of 247kg. This example further proves the point.
And like I have already stated, chest girth does not correlate with weight as much as bodylength does and also the fact that Wagdoh was so old his chest girth would have shrunk due to old age.
Maybe but the bloating could contribute to an increased measurement now. And regardless we can’t make assumptions for then, only right now and as of this very moment, he’s outsized by the 247kg cat shown. So again this shows he’s not in the 270kg tier at this moment.
Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers
