There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---

  • 2 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers

abhisingh7 Offline
Regular Member
***
( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 01:33 AM by abhisingh7 )

(10-06-2022, 10:22 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(10-04-2022, 07:03 PM)abhisingh7 Wrote: in the video (madla capture) chundawat was seen measuring madla , you should try to contact chundawat and get measurements and final words to end this debate on madla .

I already tried, but he did not answered. Also, he already published an entire book about all his studies on tigers and even then, he did not published any data on measurements, only the weights and the conclutions that I already showed before.

Please take in count that while Madla surpassed Sauraha in canine length and neck girth, these are the only measurements that we know about him, so we can't guess if the Indian guy was actually bigger than the Nepalese one. Also, and this is very important for all us, the measurements that we know about Sauraha are those taken in 1975, when he bottomed the scale of 500 lb, so I am quite sure that he was bigger in the next captures until 1979, when he constantly bottomed the scale of 600 lb.

(10-07-2022, 01:22 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 01:14 AM)abhisingh7 Wrote:
(10-06-2022, 10:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-06-2022, 10:03 PM)Khan85 Wrote: Waghdoh's PM report

It was confirmed that he was indeed weighed using a scale and there was only some undigested food in him, not gorged. 

Who confirmed that if you don't mind? 
Again the verbiage of "approx" is concerning.

Also can you find out the protocol used?
His measurements are fairly normal for a large male except for a shorter shoulder height. He's got good length but short shoulder and a decent chest, so overall he's definitely a good sized male which we all knew but protocol will make a big difference. 
If we were to compare him to Branders and assuming Wagdoh was measured in a straight line, Waghdoh would be shorter in length and shoulder and smaller at the chest. So with all things equal, it's safe to assume Wagdoh was probably a 225-250kg Male when empty.

in his prime wagdoh should be 250kg  or even 270 i would belive , but at old age he looked a lot shurnked , he lost huge amout of bulk, he was visibly a lot smaller in last 2-3 years of his life , could be 210kg too at the time of death or 240kg with content.

I’d agree with that, I’d say closer to the 250kg range though. 
Also what needs to be taken into account is the fact that these dead cats are bloated in the early stages which is noted on the report. That also could exaggerate their girth which deserves to be mentioned as well.

yeah dead body swells , it would increase the weight by 20-30kg , but prime wagdoh see here , chest girth looks larger than p243 or p111 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqLmMMYIPMQ .
Reply

Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****

(10-06-2022, 11:50 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @GuateGojira, he was 19 years old when he died not 13-15. He was one of the oldest surviving tigers that we knew about and unlike Machli, he wasn’t propped up artificially with live bait.

Oh, ok, my bad. Even then, my claim is still supported, specially now that we know that he was older than what I tought.
Reply

abhisingh7 Offline
Regular Member
***

(10-06-2022, 10:51 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(10-06-2022, 10:25 PM)Pckts Wrote: Again the verbiage of "approx" is concerning.

I don't think so, the scales are not always exact, there are a few grams more or less, so the word "approx" just suggest to use round numbers. That is what I think, and that is why also some body masses in popular books are just rounded, that is what Dr Karanth explained to me, at least.
whats ur view on bloating guate , how much it can increase the weight ?
Reply

LonePredator Offline
Regular Member
***

(10-06-2022, 10:24 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(10-06-2022, 10:03 PM)Khan85 Wrote: Waghdoh's PM report

It was confirmed that he was indeed weighed using a scale and there was only some undigested food in him, not gorged. 


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

*This image is copyright of its original author
   

*This image is copyright of its original author
   

Great information!!!

I am a little blind, the weight says 240 or 270?

It is 270kg.
1 user Likes LonePredator's post
Reply

LonePredator Offline
Regular Member
***
( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 01:50 PM by LonePredator )

A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? That's very unlikely.

We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)

The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.

So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).
1 user Likes LonePredator's post
Reply

LonePredator Offline
Regular Member
***
( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 12:34 PM by LonePredator )

(10-07-2022, 03:28 AM)abhisingh7 Wrote:
(10-06-2022, 10:51 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(10-06-2022, 10:25 PM)Pckts Wrote: Again the verbiage of "approx" is concerning.

I don't think so, the scales are not always exact, there are a few grams more or less, so the word "approx" just suggest to use round numbers. That is what I think, and that is why also some body masses in popular books are just rounded, that is what Dr Karanth explained to me, at least.
whats ur view on bloating guate , how much it can increase the weight ?

Bloating does not increase weight. All it does is cause the body to swell up. It's similar to a filled baloon. Maybe bloating increases weight by a few hundred grams or maybe even less but that's so miniscule it's not even worth counting.
1 user Likes LonePredator's post
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******
( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 10:30 AM by Pckts )

(10-07-2022, 05:42 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? No way. That's very unlikely.

We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)

The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.

So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).
Your claim is extremely flawed.
You have numerous Tigers who are longer, taller and thicker with weights of 230kgs or less.
Reply

LonePredator Offline
Regular Member
***
( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 01:18 PM by LonePredator )

(10-07-2022, 10:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 05:42 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? No way. That's very unlikely.

We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)

The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.

So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).
Your claim is extremely flawed.
You have numerous Tigers who are longer, taller and thicker with weights of 230kgs or less.

And your claim is not? From what I remember you once claimed that Wagdoh is just an average Tiger with an average frame and you even started arguing with someone about it.

And in this case we can say with simple common sense that he was over 270kg in his prime. His dying, unhealthy body weighed 270kg and you are saying he was only 250kg in his prime?

And now coming to your other claim. Any healthy, non-emaciated male Bengal Tiger that measures 208cm in body length in straight line, 101cm tall and 140cm+ chest girth in its prime, measured normally will never weigh ‘less than 230kg’.

The only exceptions are some faulty numbers about the weights and measurements from old records which don’t add up. Guate and others even pointed out some of those old records where the numbers didn’t add up. Even in modern records the numbers sometimes don’t add up or are not taken by the standard method.

You remember MB2 who was ‘127cm’ in shoulder height?? Do you really think he was 127cm in shoulder height? You must have the common sense to understand that the measurement might have been taken differently or have flaws (in case of some old records) when the numbers don’t add up.

Have you ever seen the regression graph that was made by TigerLuver which showed the correlation between body length and body mass?? I bet you’ve never seen it because if you did, you wouldn’t say such things.

You should educate yourself more on this topic before calling my ‘claims’ ‘extremely flawed’.
1 user Likes LonePredator's post
Reply

LonePredator Offline
Regular Member
***
( This post was last modified: 10-07-2022, 02:06 PM by LonePredator )

(10-07-2022, 10:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 05:42 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? No way. That's very unlikely.

We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)

The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.

So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).
Your claim is extremely flawed.
You have numerous Tigers who are longer, taller and thicker with weights of 230kgs or less.

The most unbelievable thing about your claim is that you seem to be implying that a Tiger can be longer, taller and thicker than another Tiger but still weigh less. That’s what you are implying, aren’t you??

So basically you are implying that one Tiger can have wayy higher volume than another Tiger but still weigh less than the other Tiger? Then for your information, what you are implying is simply *impossible*.

You don’t even need any complex knowledge of physics or biology to realise this. All Tigers are made of flesh and blood and bones. It’s not like one Tiger is made of metal and the other is made of flesh. All Tigers are basically made up of the same matter.

Things such as Body composition and bone density (basically BMI) can make minimal differences but they are negligible and not nearly enough to make up for huge volume differences between the two specimens unless the Tiger is extremely fat or emaciated.

And even then BMI in Tigers probably doesn’t even vary as much as it does in humans. Do you think it’s possible for a man who is 6’3” and has the same physique as Brock Lesnar to weigh 70kg?? No, it’s not possible. It defies all science.

To conclude: What you are describing is simply impossible according to science.

And this is not the first time you are making unscientific claims. You have once previously claimed that Jaguars are ‘denser’ than Tigers just because they have shorter legs.

You should think about what you are speaking because your claims are just defying all proven science.
1 user Likes LonePredator's post
Reply

Roflcopters Offline
Modern Tiger Expert
*****

Ashutosh wrote: 

Quote:I don’t know how specifically big cats age and at what rate do their height and width shrink (of course varies upon individuals), but surely there is some loss there too. And, in case of Waghdoh that loss would be more pronounced considering how long he lived.

in tiger years, Wagdoh was pretty much like a great Grandpa at the time of his death so it’s no surprise that he wasn’t the same male that he was during his prime days. Wagdoh also happened to be one of the bulkiest old male tiger that i have personally seen. 

Quote:Just for reference sake, look at his son Shiva, who himself at 12 years old is really thick. Shiva looks a bit longer and taller than his father, but, Waghdoh in his prime was definitely heftier of the two.



I always had the same opinion, Shiva in true fashion was the real protege child of Wagdoh in every aspect. 


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


he was on a whole new level last winter and pre summer 2021.
1 user Likes Roflcopters's post
Reply

Romania GreenForest Offline
Member
**

(10-07-2022, 05:42 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? That's very unlikely.

We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)

The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.

So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).

You are spot on in your estimation. There is absolutely no doubt he is 300kg specimen at his prime. A record holder tiger. His body length is 11cm longer than 261kg Sauraha male. I always said Wagdoh is a long body male, massive in bulk, measurements. Obviously some people have preconceived biased opinion that tadoba tigers are smaller, shorter than other park tiger. They can't digest this. It must be a good lesson for them.  Lol   If Wagdoh can weigh 270kg at 19 years of age, then easily add another 50kg to his prime weight. No rocket science here.
1 user Likes GreenForest's post
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

(10-07-2022, 12:19 PM)LonePredator Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 10:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 05:42 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? No way. That's very unlikely.

We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)

The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.

So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).
Your claim is extremely flawed.
You have numerous Tigers who are longer, taller and thicker with weights of 230kgs or less.

The most unbelievable thing about your claim is that you seem to be implying that a Tiger can be longer, taller and thicker than another Tiger but still weigh less. That’s what you are implying, aren’t you??

So basically you are implying that one Tiger can have wayy higher volume than another Tiger but still weigh less than the other Tiger? Then for your information, what you are implying is simply *impossible*.

You don’t even need any complex knowledge of physics or biology to realise this. All Tigers are made of flesh and blood and bones. It’s not like one Tiger is made of metal and the other is made of flesh. All Tigers are basically made up of the same matter.

Things such as Body composition and bone density (basically BMI) can make minimal differences but they are negligible and not nearly enough to make up for huge volume differences between the two specimens unless the Tiger is extremely fat or emaciated.

And even then BMI in Tigers probably doesn’t even vary as much as it does in humans. Do you think it’s possible for a man who is 6’3” and has the same physique as Brock Lesnar to weigh 70kg?? No, it’s not possible. It defies all science.

To conclude: What you are describing is simply impossible according to science.

And this is not the first time you are making unscientific claims. You have once previously claimed that Jaguars are ‘denser’ than Tigers just because they have shorter legs.

You should think about what you are speaking because your claims are just defying all proven science.

What are you talking about?

You claimed at his body length he’d be a minimum of 250kg or more. You have numerous cats who are longer than him who weighed 230kg or less. These cats  were also thicker in the chest and/or taller in the shoulder. Any additional weight for your interpretation of “girth” hold no water since that’s a personal opinion and nothing to do with verifiable proof.

Obviously you don’t understand how to correctly use your equation or likes been proven many times before, it’s not valid for determining big cat size.
Reply

Jerricson Offline
Prometheus
**

I don't know if its just me , but I can't view majority of the pics posted by you @Roflcopters . Its just showing here - 'This image is copyright of its original author'. 
1 user Likes Jerricson's post
Reply

United Kingdom Orpadan Offline
Banned

Pckts pointed out a pretty key thing here. The dead body swells up and is bloated,if you look at the pictures of Wagdoh after his death he clearly was puffed up. I wonder how much weight that added. I am not an expert in this category but am guessing about 20-30kgs pretty easily no?. Another example is KF from Kanha,when he died his body was super puffed up and made him look much heavier than he actually was. 

Also pckts is right in saying the measurments of Wagdoh do not really give off a 270kgs Cat. Also the puffiness of Wagdoh after death Definately played a role in making his chest measure thicker than it actually is. His chest could have been around 130 or less in normal circumstances (but no doubt prime  wagdoh would have had thicker chest) but now that his chest measured 136cm (after looking pretty swollen) I think it's safe to take away about 6cm??.

Also please make the number clear,is it 210? 240? Or 270? That "7" is a little weird. Anyways this was my take on this and what I thought of it personally.
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

(10-07-2022, 04:48 PM)GreenForest Wrote:
(10-07-2022, 05:42 AM)LonePredator Wrote: A bodylength of 208cm with one of the bulkiest frames and yet a weight of just 250kg in his prime? That's very unlikely.

We can do some simple isometric calculations with the 208cm bodylength to estimate his prime weight (I'm using bodylength because it has the best correlation with weight and also because Wagdoh's chest girth would have shrunk in old age)

The isometric calculation gives a weight of 288kg using a 190cm, 220kg Tiger as surrogate and 278kg using a 190cm, 212kg Tiger as surrogate. And even if I make the most strict calculation with a 190cm, 200kg Tiger (which should cause an underestimation), it still gives 262kg.

So logically speaking, from the body length given in this document, I don't think there's any way his prime weight could be as low as 250kg. That's just too low UNLESS THE LENGTH MENTIONED WAS TAKEN OVER THE CURVES (which is also very unlikely).

You are spot on in your estimation. There is absolutely no doubt he is 300kg specimen at his prime. A record holder tiger. His body length is 11cm longer than 261kg Sauraha male. I always said Wagdoh is a long body male, massive in bulk, measurements. Obviously some people have preconceived biased opinion that tadoba tigers are smaller, shorter than other park tiger. They can't digest this. It must be a good lesson for them.  Lol   If Wagdoh can weigh 270kg at 19 years of age, then easily add another 50kg to his prime weight. No rocket science here.

*This image is copyright of its original author


Sauraha male was notoriously short and dense, it’s possible Wagdoh is of similar build and while Wagdoh was was longer he was most likely less in the shoulder and was less in the chest. 
There are numerous Tigers that outsize Sauraha or Wagdoh by a good margin. Whether discussing Length and/or Chest girth or both. Outside of Length/chest/height the only other factors that’ll contribute to weight are abdominal girth and limb gurth. Neck and skull are a much smaller contributor. Wagdoh was never a very large limbed cat like Raja or Uma in terms of muscle density but he did have a large abdominal region when full but it also could shrink like any other cat when empty like you see above or below

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

He was a notorious cattle killer “at least later in his life” which also can contribute to being overweight.
All things considered he’s a big Tiger, no doubt and I’m not saying otherwise but he’s certainly not close to the biggest. 


In regards to Tadoba having smaller Tigers there’s no debate. This is factual, you have multiple researchers and hunters discussing this, guides who’ve seen both and modern day weights and measurements. Wagdoh is a big cat, no doubt and Tigers can get big no matter the location but it’s not with the same frequency nor the same body composition. And it’s not just the males but the females as well, Tadoba females are notoriously small, especially compared to their Sal Forest cousins.
Reply






Users browsing this thread:
3 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social     Subscribe  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB