Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[ZigZak]

(11-29-2022, 03:10 PM)AndresVida Wrote:

(11-29-2022, 03:14 AM)Pckts Wrote: A large skull no doubt but measurements can be done in different manners, SCI or trophy hunted skulls like what you find from Timbavati may include the lower jaw attached and to end of the teeth. Generally increasing length a bit, I also didn't see this skull mentioned on the SCI Record books so I'd be curious who measured it.

I guess you haven't heard about it because it just popped out or something but I'm going to investigate and provide more information about it right now, will share info later if I find something

From what i understood it was forwarded to a user via Facebook from a worker of Timbavati. It was a guide named Ziggy Hugo or smth like that. Looking at the measurements, which were done following Wards method it becomes clear that BDMs Skull exceeded that of the largest lions ever. His GSL might be within 16-17 inches and his ZW at around 11-12 inches, which is monstrous. Reply

[ZigZak]

@woshiniya 

Thank you for this piece of Information regarding Dinokeng and you even got the document. May i ask you from where and from who you specifially got it? But i know the team that collared the lion. I put the document in a translator and this is what i got. 265 (300 kg) is indeed very impressive and the measurements are too.

*This image is copyright of its original author

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[ZigZak]

Lions from Greater Kruger

A veterinarian who has a head position in Kruger and worked also at Timbavati gave body masses for lions he weighed. Few came from Phinda and Pilanesberg NP as well but generally he worked in the Kruger area.

Quote:I have weighed hundreds of lions... the adults ranged from 189 - 259 kg with by far most clustering around 230 kg.

Regarding the biggest male of 259 kg he added: 

Quote:Yes biggest male and was late afternoon on empty stomach

Reply

[ZigZak]

(11-29-2022, 08:28 PM)ZigZak Wrote: Lions from Greater Kruger

A veterinarian who has a head position in Kruger and worked also at Timbavati gave body masses for lions he weighed. Few came from Phinda and Pilanesberg NP as well but generally he worked in the Kruger area.

Quote:I have weighed hundreds of lions... the adults ranged from 189 - 259 kg with by far most clustering around 230 kg.

Regarding the biggest male of 259 kg he added: 

Quote:Yes biggest male and was late afternoon on empty stomach

The lion in question came from Timbavati and was weighed in 2011; Kings Camp. FORgot to add it Reply

[Mapokser]

@ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest? Reply

[Pckts]

(11-29-2022, 08:28 PM)ZigZak Wrote: Lions from Greater Kruger

A veterinarian who has a head position in Kruger and worked also at Timbavati gave body masses for lions he weighed. Few came from Phinda and Pilanesberg NP as well but generally he worked in the Kruger area.

Quote:I have weighed hundreds of lions... the adults ranged from 189 - 259 kg with by far most clustering around 230 kg.

Regarding the biggest male of 259 kg he added: 

Quote:Yes biggest male and was late afternoon on empty stomach

His Name? Reply

[Pckts]

(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?

Would be the third largest for the SCI record book at this time. Reply

[Pckts]

(11-29-2022, 05:27 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato the person I'm talking to claimed the Matshipiri were big himself, he said:


"I actually saw these two photographed on ig, I thought the male looked massive and it looks like he lives up to the hype. What a bulky boy!"

About other rangers opinion on Mapogos and Majins, true, but:

1. KNP Males' territory wasn't in Londolozi, they have seen Freddy and Limper in occasion only, same for Mapogos and the southern guide. In comparison Rob spent years with both Mapogos and Majins, plus KY's skull was smaller than the 5th Majingilane, so it's fair to say the opinion that Majins were bigger has much more weight to it, though I don't think they were much bigger.

#https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-matshapiri-males?page=2

@Pckts  Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.

The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.

Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.

And size is only one decisive factor when lions chase or fight each other so it'a irrelevant if Mapogos and Majingilanes fought Matimbas, you yourself said the difference between Ron and Caesar was huge, difference of 185 male to a 225kg, still they were ib the same coalition fighting for mating rights and Ron was reported to be the most dominant.

Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion, we should just agree to desagree, it was my mistake getting involved in these discussions, tigers fans like yourself are probably debating such things with lion fans for more than a decade now and if both sides have never reached and agreement surely I'll not be the one to change your mind.

Anyway, have a good day, no bad feelings!

Quote: Yes the ranger thought a Mara lion he saw was bigger, so what? Apart from this male he thought it was the Matimbas.

I've seen E. African Lions and have always maintained they'd be larger than S. African free ranging males depending on the location. That being said, the largest male from E. Africa was a 272kg cattle lifter. Although I have little doubt they can reach higher weights. 

Quote:The Charleston male was 3yo and the Sand River was a prime male, we have both these facts confirmed. Sand Rivers fought and took over the Southern Pride in 2012, two years before the fight with the Charleston boy who was born 3 years before. Sand Rivers even mated with the Charleston's aunt that was raising them.

Who has these facts confirme
Neither is full adult by the looks of it, both are most likely still coming into the fully mature stage of their lives and neither are in their prime. The SRM is the son of the Skukuza Male who was still alive in 2020 and this video was from 2014 so generally speaking, Wild Lions live to about 12 if lucky and take 3 years to sexually mature and generally longer than that to have cubs. So rough estimates would put him around 4 during this video but that's purely speculation on my part if all information mentioned is correct. Regardless, the size difference is minimal which was your claim.

Quote:Matimbas comparison with Bboys are important because you're claiming all lions within a region are of similar size.

 They are, what is mentioned has little to do with that. Lions within a coalition can be small compared to the larger ones, but generally speaking they'll be in the 185kg-225kg range on empty stomachs. Hence *similar size*

Quote:Anyway it's clear you won't change your mind about 225kg being the peak weight of a lion,

I've never said this, but regardless we can move on from here. Reply

[ZigZak]

(11-29-2022, 09:50 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(11-29-2022, 08:28 PM)ZigZak Wrote: Lions from Greater Kruger

A veterinarian who has a head position in Kruger and worked also at Timbavati gave body masses for lions he weighed. Few came from Phinda and Pilanesberg NP as well but generally he worked in the Kruger area.

Quote:I have weighed hundreds of lions... the adults ranged from 189 - 259 kg with by far most clustering around 230 kg.

Regarding the biggest male of 259 kg he added: 

Quote:Yes biggest male and was late afternoon on empty stomach

His Name?

Will share in few days Reply

[ZigZak]

(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?

As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm. Reply

[Pckts]

(11-30-2022, 12:14 AM)ZigZak Wrote:

(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?

As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.

His skull would rank 17th amongst S.A. Lions *general overexaggerating seen in private reserves*  from SCI but again the process is different and even master measurers can do so in different ways.
I saw on Youtube someone say it was 16'' x 12'' which would be very unusual zygomatic width for that length in Lions, your measurements would be more plausible but still need verification. Reply

[Mapokser]

(11-30-2022, 12:14 AM)ZigZak Wrote:

(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?

As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.

Who is this "Kirbies lion" you talk about? I heard soemone saying BDM's skull is bigger than the skull of the 272kg Kenya lion, is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if BDM was even bigger, I think he's the most impressive cat I've ever seen. Reply

[Pckts]

(11-28-2022, 11:19 PM)woshiniya Wrote:

(11-28-2022, 10:59 PM)woshiniy Wrote:

(10-07-2022, 06:42 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Pckts Will try

What's the story?the lion was Dinokeng. And it said that it was weight 265kg in 3 months this year. And it weight over 300kg by a scale in 2017, a lion fan get that from a lion  doctor,I hope someone confirm this.

It's the lion

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So a few a things about this lion

1st is that absolutely no truly wild lion will ever look like this. This male was from Welgevonden game reserve which is a private reserve and through the Gap Africa Project which is a pay to "play" veterinary program. 

2nd with regards to the body length, there's absolutely no way this male was 221cm in HBL, maybe over the curves of this fat male would it be possible I guess but even then I doubt it. Reply

[Pckts]

(11-30-2022, 03:13 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(11-30-2022, 12:14 AM)ZigZak Wrote:

(11-29-2022, 09:38 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @ZigZak wasn't BDM's skull the third largest, not the largest?

As i know BDM Skull must be the largest. Because as i know the biggest lion skull ever had a score of 26.5 inches and that comes from Kirbies Lion. However BDM had a skull score of 28 inches following wards protocol. I honestly think he had a skull length of c.430 mm and a zogomatic width of c.280 mm.

Who is this "Kirbies lion" you talk about? I heard soemone saying BDM's skull is bigger than the skull of the 272kg Kenya lion, is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if BDM was even bigger, I think he's the most impressive cat I've ever seen.

The Kenyan Lions skull only scored 25.7'' and Kirby's largest Lion he estimated to be 500lbs while it was his 2nd largest Lion who's skull was the longest. Skull size isn't a direct correlation to body weight but obviously a large skull generally means a large cat. 
The Kenyan Lion was measured by Yamguchi using correct protocol, who know's about the others mentioned. Reply

[ZigZak]

(11-30-2022, 03:30 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(11-28-2022, 11:19 PM)woshiniya Wrote:

(11-28-2022, 10:59 PM)woshiniy Wrote:

(10-07-2022, 06:42 PM)Jerricson Wrote: @Pckts Will try

What's the story?the lion was Dinokeng. And it said that it was weight 265kg in 3 months this year. And it weight over 300kg by a scale in 2017, a lion fan get that from a lion  doctor,I hope someone confirm this.

It's the lion

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So a few a things about this lion

1st is that absolutely no truly wild lion will ever look like this. This male was from Welgevonden game reserve which is a private reserve and through the Gap Africa Project which is a pay to "play" veterinary program. 

2nd with regards to the body length, there's absolutely no way this male was 221cm in HBL, maybe over the curves of this fat male would it be possible I guess but even then I doubt it.

Tbh he just looks full but we have no idea when he was captured. However considering he weighed 265 kg and 300 kg up in 2017 he must be in his prime. Scrolling through some pictures he never seemed to be "fat". This is the time (rough time) when Dinokeng weighed 300 up kg. He was most likely weighed when he was translocated to Welgevonden Game Reserve in 2017. If we guess he was full back then it will result in around 270-280+ kg i guess. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply