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Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
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Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
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You have 2nd hand information, none of this should be used as fact. On top of that, again we're talking about private, fenced reserves.
In regards to how much a cat can eat, who knows. All numbers are estimates, it's impossible to know for sure. But the larger the cat, the more they can eat. 
I'm not going to consider this as second hand information.
Rob confirmed that the Lion was weighed infront and darted infront of him in 1997. John Dixon (Guide) was there as well. The scientist (Wildlife Manager) himself confirmed the weight along with the nature conservation official that was present back then. Willie Coetzee worked tthere and we have evidence that Willie Coetzee is a reliable person for the education. https://za.linkedin.com/in/willie-coetzee-3b471258  *This image is copyright of its original author
Also what's the problem of it being a fenced reserve? Reserves have to be like that there's no real exception on it.
This is to keep the danger away from the local population and to protect the livestock of their neighbors from dangerous predators like lion, leopards or hyenas  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
They don't feed lions in the private reserves, it is not like in the zoo. So their lions have the same average weight as any national park's.
(08-24-2022, 05:22 PM)Bellateda Wrote: They don't feed lions in the private reserves, it is not like in the zoo. So their lions have the same average weight as any national park's. Not only will they feed them, they’ll bring in animals to repopulate stock and keep them In areas where tourists can access them easily, perform fake captures using baits to allow “research experiences” and trophy hunting using the same tactic. Private reserves as a whole arent the wild, every reserve isn’t equal as well. Some are better off than others. (08-24-2022, 04:19 PM)AndresVida Wrote: I'm not going to consider this as second hand information. Rob literally stated he can’t remember what he had for breakfast let alone a lion weighed 25 years ago. And he “thinks” Jon Dixon was there, again doesn’t remember nor do you have any other confirmation on that. And the other person wasn’t there and states a second hand source. Again, these aren’t first hand sources who participated, these are second hand sources trying to remember from someone who may have been involved. Lastly, you have 100s of free ranging lions from S. Africa with measurements, weights and capture techniques scientifically documented. These 2nd hand private reserve claims should always be taken with a huge grain of salt.
Just to add to my last comment…
What exactly changed from the time Smutts and Hamilton were capturing their lions to now? Why is it these Private reserves make claims of the largest “Wild” Lion weights ever yet there are now less Lions, prey and land for these Lions to roam freely compared to Smuts and Hamiltons days? Why has there never been a Lion from free ranging E. Africa to obtain these weights, let alone multiples? E. Africa has far more prey, far more large prey, the highest lion population on earth and better protection.  (08-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just to add to my last comment…Well there has been a 250 kg lion in Timbawati and the Black Dam male was described as being bigger than the 250 kg lion, by a person who darted both animals. and now we also know of a group if 5 males between 230-240 kg in Kruger who hadn’t been feeding in the last two days, are all of similar size or bigger than the largest lion Smutts and Hamilton weighed there. And this happend decades ago so not that much has changed. One of the reasons why lions from private reserves grow bigger is because many of the lions brought in has Namibian or Kalahari genes or directly brorught in from those places. Regarding the 300 kg cat it was described as being a wild lion, this from people working in the reserve or having spent a considerable amount of time there. Having spoken to Rob personally he is careful in giving weights and not to exaggerate the size of the lions. When you get more than one source telling about this lion we cannot ignore it. Dismissing it’s accuracy because he couldn’t remember the details correctly because it happend a considerable amount of time ago is just silly, obviously he remembers that he witnessed a lion of around 300 kg and yet still be a bit fussy about the exact weight and every detail. It just strengthens his credability imo, Also there is a 272 kg male lion from East Africa on an empty stomach. Shot for attacking humans out of hunger not because he killed cattle. Him after a big meal would be over 300 kg. The lions from most of these private reserves provide for themselves. there are probably exceptions, but Lions in places like Madikwe, Addo Elephant park, Tswalu, Phinda etc for sure do. And based on the statements made around the lion in question his reserve is the same. (08-25-2022, 03:17 AM)Pantherinae Wrote:Neither of the “sources” were there and have relayed that clearly.(08-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just to add to my last comment…Well there has been a 250 kg lion in Timbawati and the Black Dam male was described as being bigger than the 250 kg lion, by a person who darted both animals. and now we also know of a group if 5 males between 230-240 kg in Kruger who hadn’t been feeding in the last two days, are all of similar size or bigger than the largest lion Smutts and Hamilton weighed there. And this happend decades ago so not that much has changed. We’ve already gone over these numerous times. None of them are reliable other than the 272 kg male who was a notorious cattle killer. Regardless of stomach content or not, he’d been growing fat on cattle for months. Lastly Namibian lions are no larger than anywhere else so their genetic influence wouldn’t change lion size nor is there any reason they’d be inserted in any of these reserves. A few here or there mean nothing when comparing all Lions living in S. Africa. (08-25-2022, 05:31 AM)Pckts Wrote:(08-25-2022, 03:17 AM)Pantherinae Wrote:Neither of the “sources” were there and have relayed that clearly.(08-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just to add to my last comment…Well there has been a 250 kg lion in Timbawati and the Black Dam male was described as being bigger than the 250 kg lion, by a person who darted both animals. and now we also know of a group if 5 males between 230-240 kg in Kruger who hadn’t been feeding in the last two days, are all of similar size or bigger than the largest lion Smutts and Hamilton weighed there. And this happend decades ago so not that much has changed.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author So even if it killed cattle it did not appare like a overweight cattle killer, neither was it like a captive lion or fat just big… I know he gave it a (6) Moderate/High, but that I suspect has just as much to do with the overall apparence of the lion in the picture more so than it has to do with the fat on the lion. As the moderate Lions looks like smaller individuals in the picture. As after all he states the lion was not fat. As for the other Lions it’s important to state they are not reliable in YOUR opinion. Regardless there are lions stated at those weight’s(greater than 225 kg) around Kruger from past and present. The Mapogos where weighed, all under 230 kg on an empty stomach, but I guess the largest two where pretty close to 230 kg since that’s the number he used. Say the biggest of them weighed 227 kg and had 10-15 kg stomach content which would make him 212-217 kg empty. That seems fair right? Yet compared to other dominant males they where described as small/average males by Rob. Smaller than the Majingilane’s. Which again was said to be much smaller than the Matimba males. Not everything has to be written down in detail on a paper, sometimes you just have to be a little logical. Looking at the source, are the person giving the info reliable? Or does the person have a habit of exaggerating? does this person have a bias? Etc.. we cannot disregard everything because it doesn’t suit a certain narrative one might have set.  (08-25-2022, 07:59 PM)Khan85 Wrote: More information about the 272 kg Kenyan Lion@Pantherinae Not only that, Koch himself estimated him at a 6 body condition  *This image is copyright of its original author Wild lions don't possess fat unless obtaining easy prey.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author And of course Waveriders is the one who actually posted skeletons that he saw in person. And it was either Yamguchi or Christansen who also saw the skeletons and mentioned the same thing as well. So once again, he was a prolific cattle killer, also this idea that because he attacked a human automatically means he was hunger is nonsense. Big cats attack humans all the time, that doesn't mean they must be starving to do so. Is it a factor, sure but so is territory or just being in a bad mood or anything else that runs through their head before they attack. Next is the fact that you tried to mention private reserves as being good examples of pure wild living. You specifically mentioned Phinda. Phinda literally killed off 3 of their lions to make room for two others they had donated to them. They also offer "vet for a day" programs. Peter Rettig "That happens everywhere in South Africa everyday for decades! There is no Wildlife in South Africa outside of the Kruger NP and Kgalagadi Transfrontier Park, all the rest ... praised by "experts" as super Conservation success (esp. by the Hunting Industry) ... is fenced Game Reserves and Game Ranches. All these fenced areas are way too small to let nature take its course, animal populations are being managed ... speak selling/buying, culling and hunting. Phinda has to manage Lion numbers and gene pool, they always did. What do you think how many Lions have been sold, shot and hunted in Tembe or Addo?" These reserves don't even have the means to properly sustain a healthy wild lion population, they bring in prey animals, supply artificial watering holes, sell tourist attractions like trophy hunts or fake vet experiences, bait trails to keep the lions close and so on. This same claim was made about Karongwe Game Reserve a while back and of course the same thing applied there and does to almost all of these other "private reserves." It's no different than what you see at Tiger Canyons. Trying to call these cats wild for the sake of the dollar is a joke.
It’s literally written on the Skull
 *This image is copyright of its original author
 (08-25-2022, 10:10 PM)Pckts Wrote:Yes I mentioned myself, that he had given him a 6. yet he also described the lion as being nothing like a captive animal, just a very big lion. Wild east African Lions especially just past their prime can have extra fat. I have seen that on several males(08-25-2022, 07:59 PM)Khan85 Wrote: More information about the 272 kg Kenyan Lion@Pantherinae  *This image is copyright of its original author (This is a dominant male past his prime, that hunted challenging prey yet he still had fat. Based on the picture chart above he is at best a 5.) Regardless of attacking tourists because of being hungry or not, this lion was empty… Wild On private reserves: no one said they are pure wild lions, I said the lions there live a natural life, they are not spoon fed, they hunt and kill for themselves, and will fight over territory and compeate with other carnivores. Ofc when humans change and move animals to keep the gene pool clean it’s not "perfect wild Lions" or a natural balance lol no one has said that. but the animals who get’s taken into these "reserves" are wild animals, and they continue to provide for themselves while being at these reserves. So their weights wouldn’t change. Tiger canyon is not the same, he interracts with his tigers, I have seen a drugged blessbuck charge a tiger, one tiger biting in the throat of an already tiger stiff as a board, so that carcass was likely placed out into another tigers territory for mr Varty to get a cool shot to sell, the animals are hybrid tigers from ZOO’s |
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